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Is there something wrong with asking for that? Darker-skinned models (live ones, I mean) need work too.
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The problem I'm seeing now is yeah, people want diversity, but they don't even know what that is to start with. How is that going to translate into sales? It's not. I'll stick with what sells if that's the case, because it serves me no purpose to make something then have it sit when people think it's not real because of their preconceived notions.
This is a delicate subject on this forum -- on the one hand, as artists we have every right to state our need for products that will let us accurately depict the full spectrum of humanity. But to avoid violating DAZ's ToS we have to avoid specific issues of racism, representation & erasure, colorism (and why preferencing light-skinned black over dark-skinned is a problem), and the paper-bag test. Nobody's immune, the issues affect us all in various ways, but the discussion here has to stay focused on art supplies.
However if you don't even know what that spectrum is, it's probably more important to get educated of what diversity is rather than erroneously call something out for something you know nothing of. That's the point.
It's not worth my time to give diverse products if that's the case. Reuse what you have which would be that same texture everyone uses.
This is a delicate subject on this forum -- on the one hand, as artists we have every right to state our need for products that will let us accurately depict the full spectrum of humanity. But to avoid violating DAZ's ToS we have to avoid specific issues of racism, representation & erasure, colorism (and why preferencing light-skinned black over dark-skinned is a problem), and the paper-bag test. Nobody's immune, the issues affect us all in various ways, but the discussion here has to stay focused on art supplies.
However if you don't even know what that spectrum is, it's probably more important to get educated of what diversity is rather than erroneously call something out for something you know nothing of. That's the point.
It's not worth my time to give diverse products if that's the case. Reuse what you have which would be that same texture everyone uses.
Unfortunately, it is easy for many to post complaints that there is no diversity or that they want it. Especially when they have no clear idea how textures are created.
Perhaps you might want to give them a run down on how much a subscription to 3d.sk costs per year, how much you spend on MR bases (if you use them), how many hours you actually spent creating your Wynn texture vs actual dollars you ended up with. Chances are, you didn't even break even on the deal.
I left the Poser content sales biz early in the days of P5 (my employers saw it as a conflict of interest). I know what it was back in those days. Despite the fact that everything back then was done with templates and photos (MR's didn't exist back then), I think it was actually easier creating for Dork or Posette.
I know just how few authentic and complete ethnic resources there are out there. I still do textures for my current job and there are days I want to pull my hair out when I need a reference set and there isn't one to be had.
However if you don't even know what that spectrum is, it's probably more important to get educated of what diversity is rather than erroneously call something out for something you know nothing of. That's the point.
It's not worth my time to give diverse products if that's the case. Reuse what you have which would be that same texture everyone uses.
Unfortunately, it is easy for many to post complaints that there is no diversity or that they want it. Especially when they have no clear idea how textures are created.
Perhaps you might want to give them a run down on how much a subscription to 3d.sk costs per year, how much you spend on MR bases (if you use them), how many hours you actually spent creating your Wynn texture vs actual dollars you ended up with. Chances are, you didn't even break even on the deal.
I left the Poser content sales biz early in the days of P5 (my employers saw it as a conflict of interest). I know what it was back in those days. Despite the fact that everything back then was done with templates and photos (MR's didn't exist back then), I think it was actually easier creating for Dork or Posette.
I know just how few authentic and complete ethnic resources there are out there. I still do textures for my current job and there are days I want to pull my hair out when I need a reference set and there isn't one to be had.
Wynn went beyond that.
Airfare, photographer time, expenses. And no, it wasn't even close to recovering expenses.
For any unique textures, unless you get someone to take those pics on 3d.sk (which I also have a subscription to) that's pretty much the route you have to take.
Hi there
As the creator of this : http://www.daz3d.com/lucie-character (one of the 1st if not the first dark skin character for the FIRST Victoria model) i feel legitimate to speak here a bit.
I think you are misunderstanding each other and therefore, there is no real need of arguing.
One express what he wants
the other one express what he thinks can or can not be done and what is or is not valuable as a vendor.
you're talking about 2different things.
Yes there is a lack of ethnicity and yes it doesn't sell as good as "basic caucasian" model.
MM3 i do respect and value your work, and i think you should not take this thread personally because it's not about your work here, as everyone knows the quality of it.
As for people wanting more ethnicity, and waiting for someone willing to create those textures, you really can achieve very good results by (as mentionned previously ) tweak the shaders and not just the diffuse one.
The promos for this : http://www.daz3d.com/ethnics-for-genesis-2-female-s were made using the defaut gen2F or V6 texture (wich is far from being dark skin).
I know it's not perfect, my point is, both side can work to improve ethncity and shaders on our characters in peace :)
Cake
Actually I did have to take issue as my Wynn texture was being noted in a post as not being authentic, which was absolutely NOT true.
I had to set the record straight... then pound the thought home ;)
Hopefully we won't have misunderstandings like this again.
However if you don't even know what that spectrum is, it's probably more important to get educated of what diversity is rather than erroneously call something out for something you know nothing of. That's the point.
It's not worth my time to give diverse products if that's the case. Reuse what you have which would be that same texture everyone uses.
Unfortunately, it is easy for many to post complaints that there is no diversity or that they want it. Especially when they have no clear idea how textures are created.
Perhaps you might want to give them a run down on how much a subscription to 3d.sk costs per year, how much you spend on MR bases (if you use them), how many hours you actually spent creating your Wynn texture vs actual dollars you ended up with. Chances are, you didn't even break even on the deal.
I left the Poser content sales biz early in the days of P5 (my employers saw it as a conflict of interest). I know what it was back in those days. Despite the fact that everything back then was done with templates and photos (MR's didn't exist back then), I think it was actually easier creating for Dork or Posette.
I know just how few authentic and complete ethnic resources there are out there. I still do textures for my current job and there are days I want to pull my hair out when I need a reference set and there isn't one to be had.
Wynn went beyond that.
Airfare, photographer time, expenses. And no, it wasn't even close to recovering expenses.
For any unique textures, unless you get someone to take those pics on 3d.sk (which I also have a subscription to) that's pretty much the route you have to take.
Do you hire your own models and photographers?
For that, yes. Because the references simply weren't there. And that was after four years of asking around.
Won't do it again though.
EDIT: And I ate most of the costs, that's why the reference is in my possession.
For that, yes. Because the references simply weren't there. And that was after four years of asking around.
Won't do it again though.
EDIT: And I ate most of the costs, that's why the reference is in my possession.
Was Wynn sold here at DAZ or another brokerage? I'm sorry I don't remember the product. Given the resources that went into it, sorry I missed the product.
Was Wynn sold here at DAZ or another brokerage? I'm sorry I don't remember the product. Given the resources that went into it, sorry I missed the product.
It was here. Several head morphs, including a child and teen morph. No one's been able a African American teen in years since luke 3.
Well G2m just arrived, I'm still waiting for G2F to get some more colours - but I'm not holding my breath.
For G2 F and indeed Genesis (& even V4) There are tons of Caucasians, a few 'pale' Asian, and even fewer dark afro-Caribbeans,... and nothing much in-between to be honest. if want you want a darker toned latino, middle eastern or south / south-eastern Asian you are pretty much sunk.
I hear its mainly for two reasons.
1) its very hard to find the texture resources and difficult to balance them well in most 2d Art programs.
2) Despite the enthusiastic forum demand we sometimes see, in practice they don't sell too well apparently.
that's about it, I think.
For what little it may be worth: I think you may be misinterpreting what was said. Or in this case, what wasn't said.
In the posts you've been referencing, quite literally nothing at all was said about Wynn or the quality of his texture. In one of the posts that Kickair linked to and that was included as part of your quoted post, an angled view of his hand was shown so that people could see how it was put together. And that's IT. Other links from that post included textures which had, and had not, been tinted, purely so people could see the available options. Neither the linked post nor the quoted post stated nor implied that Wynn was colorized, and nobody was saying that it was a bad texture.
I have Wynn, and I like his texture a lot, and I'm really glad that I was able to get him before he was pulled from the market. I'm sorry he didn't sell enough to at least recoup your investments. I will admit, I'm baffled that he sold so badly; a texture with that skin tone range would be amazingly flexible. (And will be, for we few, we lucky few, we early purchasers!)
Wynn would probably have sold better long term if you hadn't pulled it. I didn't even know it existed. I can't buy something I never got to see.
I certainly never meant to put down the work of any individual PA by joining this thread. I just wanted more to add to what already exists, especially on the M5 and M6 UVs, and wanted to affirm my willingness to pay for it as a customer.
To move slightly back on track:
There's nothing wrong with asking, necessarily, but the trick is in all the other steps.
As I understand it, you need to
1) Identify a person with likely looking skin -- from a modeling agency or someone you know, I guess; how does that part even work?
2) Get them to agree to let you look at them .... In The NUDE! so you can see if, indeed, they will work, or if they have blemishes or other issues that would ultimately be too difficult to deal with,
3) If all that works out, get them to agree to at least one long, grueling photography session frequently involving some very odd positions, to say nothing of close-up (and stretched!) photography of the Dangling Bits, as I shall herein call them. (DAZ_ann, in the old forum, once briefly described the photography session for Troy. It was very eye-opening. And leg-crossing-inducing.) And given the way I've seen photography work sometimes, I'll bet it's not unusual to need to call someone back for a couple clean-up sessions to get coverage of areas where maybe the detail isn't what you need it to be. Plus there is, as Sickleyield noted, the lighting issue.
4) Once you have the texture, depending on the agreement with the model, you may then need to do work on the face so that it's not that recognizable, so that the person doesn't run across images of themselves doing most unlikely things all over the web. (Slightly OT, but I have always been amazed and astonished that the Reby Sky products actually exist as they do.)
5) Package and sell the product
6) Hope enough of it sells to make back the costs involved in all the above.
7) Lather, rinse, repeat.
From what little I know of the situation, steps 1-3 are pretty much where it all falls apart for ethnic texture issues most frequently.
Actually, I thought DAZ had two reference textures, although only one is a merchant resource. I thought Benjamin and the M4 African Reference texture were two different people. And neither of them is the guy at 3d.sk, I don't think.
Check to make sure it is actually authentic, and not just diffuse changed.I'm very happy with these characters from Zaarin...as someone who had an Armenian grandmother the characters look very realistic. Edited to add...sorry her morphs don't include textures but they are ethnic morphs that are hard to find. I don't normally use V4 but I really wanted the Armenian morphs so I bought to convert.
MM3...yes it is hard to get good references and often what people are vocal about isn't going to sell well. I have resigned myself to the fact that I'm not DAZ's optimum target market as I have been buying stuff for a long time and I'm more fussy about what I buy. So I've resigned myself to the fact that if I want something I need to make it for myself and I'm currently in the process of upskilling to be able to do this. Even still it is hard to get good references...
I would buy Wynn for M5 if it were still available. :down:
Saying that PA are coloring pale resources uniformly over maps, then linking a render of my character is a pretty much an accusation, which was flat out wrong and knows nothing of the process to make the textures I have two of the three and both of those are from actual references. You can't be saying ludicrous statements like this if you have no clue, if I gotta be honest.
And since I just saw that post made back then, I can imagine how many sales this person cost me with this inaccurate statement.
You can tell whether an product will sell well within a day or two of release. This was trending the worst out of all my products, so I killed it after a week. I wasn't going to recoup enough long term when I put thousands down just to get it arranged and split the profit 4 ways.... and with all that effort I certainly wasn't going to deeply discount it, considering how rare it was to even have a ethnic skin in the store. It was better just to pull it and call it a day.
Well you have to live with your business decisions. If it was me, I would have left it in the store for longer than a week to see if sales picked up and to recoup more of my outlay.
Like I said, I wasn't recouping thousands at that rate, so it was pulled.
Like I said, I wasn't recouping thousands at that rate, so it was pulled.
But that begs the question, do you recoup more by not having the product on sale at all, or having it on sale for a helluva lot longer than a week? Your decision was totally your business, in time you'd surely have made some sales, but now you are making none.
As someone who who purchased Wynne on the first day, I am glad that you made the effort. Male-M3dia, you are one of those #D vendors who I try to be a "completist" and get every character... After realizing what efforts you took, I am doubly pleased that I did purchase the character, ironically, Wynne is the character closest to my own skin tones.
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But that begs the question, do you recoup more by not having the product on sale at all, or having it on sale for a helluva lot longer than a week? Your decision was totally your business, in time you'd surely have made some sales, but now you are making none.
Let me enlighten you then on why I pulled it. When I get a sale at full price I'll get maybe $2. When it's discounted it's a little over $1. Sales goes down after the two week period. Then you may get a a few sales on it, but it's still at $1-2 a piece. So if I make $15-30 but spent $2k, how long is it going to take to recoup that?
I'm not. It would be foolish just to keep a product and just losing money. So I pulled it. Does it make more sense now?
But that begs the question, do you recoup more by not having the product on sale at all, or having it on sale for a helluva lot longer than a week? Your decision was totally your business, in time you'd surely have made some sales, but now you are making none.
Let me enlighten you then on why I pulled it. When I get a sale at full price I'll get maybe $2. When it's discounted it's a little over $1. Sales goes down after the two week period. Then you may get a a few sales on it, but it's still at $1-2 a piece. So if I make $15-30 but spent $2k, how long is it going to take to recoup that?
I'm not. It would be foolish just to keep a product and just losing money. So I pulled it. Does it make more sense now?
Unless there are ongoing expenses associated with keeping it in the store, I don't see how pulling it helps. The $2k has already been spent; the only thing pulling the product does is reduce your return for those costs from insufficient to zero.
There are any number of reasons why a vendor may pull a product. Rendo did (and perhaps still does it has been more than a decade since I stopped selling so I don't know their current policies) had product limits and sales requirements. DAZ may have them as well. If this is the case, removing a product that is not selling in favor of one that will is a good business decision.
+1
Keeping a product in the store just for $5 is like making no money if anyone knows how to balance a check book can figure out.
Double post.
+1
Keeping a product in the store just for $5 is like making no money if anyone knows how to balance a check book can figure out.
If you know how to balance a checkbook, then you know that getting five more dollars, even if it's a month later, means you end up with ten, which is a five dollar less loss. You gave up any other money you would have recouped over time by pulling the product.
Your math really isn't adding up here, since it cost you nothing more to leave the product for sale, but you gave up ANY chance at recouping ANYTHING else by pulling it from the store. Just admit that you got huffy because your product didn't sell right away and on an impulse, you pulled it. Because no true business person who actually gave a d@mn about earning money or recouping costs would do that, at least not after one stupid week, because it's a silly, unprofitable thing to do.