Heels, begone?

DigitalSteam

Ok, so I know I'm in a sharp and tiny minority when I look at outfits, think "Wow, this one looks really great!" and then see high heels, groan an exaggerated, melodramatic groan, and close the tab because I now deem the outfit unusable.  I get it.  Not even all women consider heels to be ridiculous, unwearable atrocities. ('Course, not all women have ridden rodeo, been a soldier and an MP, fought in full and partial medieval armour, driven a truck, worked construction, fought martial arts, raced BMX, fought light weapons, done their own stunts, or "manned" a siege engine, either. ;) )

So, yeah... I would LOVE it if every outfit that has high heels also had a morph for flats or functional heels (like combat boots, hiking boots, or cowb'y boots) but I know there's probably not much market for it, and I don't wanna make everyone else wear my shoes any more than I want to wear theirs, so the question becomes this:  

I imagine I can take those outfits into Hex or Blender, re-shape the heels into flats, and import that as a morph (and I expect tutorials on that will teach me how to re-inject the zeroed out heel poses  to do it) but, once that's done, do you think there's a viable market for that as a thing? "Sensible Shoes for X", "Sensible Shoes for Y" - it'd have to be super-cheap to be saleable, but it wouldn't sell many copies, either, right?  So how long would it take, and how many would have to sell to make all the making, texturing, injecting, and all the song and dance to get them accepted as products worthwhile...?

Whenever I have an idea like this, I tend to assume the reason it's not a thing is because people with a lot more experience have already considered it and decided the math doesn't work out, right?  Are these assumptions correct:

A - It would have to be done on an outfit by outfit basis.

B - It would take two hours, per outfit, bare minimum.

C - packaging it for sale in the marketplace would require at least another 3-4 hours (promo render, product render, actual file packaging, etc.)

D - Most people aren't going to buy it at all, and those who do won't pay more than a buck or three unless it just happens to be that one outfit they really wanted to use (luck of the draw) 

E - They're going to buy it on sale anyway, so you're making what... $.25, $.50 per, max? So...

F - let's say the equation is V * H / P = X where V is Value of your time (Let's say $25 for ease of math), H is hours invested (6?), P is profit, your cut per sale (let's say $.25, again for ease of math) = X

Solve for X gets us a threshold of 600 have to sell for each one to earn out?  Is that about right?  So are there anything like six hundred people who'd buy it - even as a step toward making that outfit male-friendly?

Taoz

I don't like heels either so I skip many products because they only have, or are made for (poses), heels. I know I can fairly easily convert the poses, but if I buy them they sell more of them which just means a bigger incentive for them to make even more.  

AllenArt

Ha! I don't like them either ;).

Laurie

nemesis10

DigitalSteam said:

Ok, so I know I'm in a sharp and tiny minority when I look at outfits, think "Wow, this one looks really great!" and then see high heels, groan an exaggerated, melodramatic groan, and close the tab because I now deem the outfit unusable.  I get it.  Not even all women consider heels to be ridiculous, unwearable atrocities. ('Course, not all women have ridden rodeo, been a soldier and an MP, fought in full and partial medieval armour, driven a truck, worked construction, fought martial arts, raced BMX, fought light weapons, done their own stunts, or "manned" a siege engine, either. ;) )

So, yeah... I would LOVE it if every outfit that has high heels also had a morph for flats or functional heels (like combat boots, hiking boots, or cowb'y boots) but I know there's probably not much market for it, and I don't wanna make everyone else wear my shoes any more than I want to wear theirs, so the question becomes this:  

I imagine I can take those outfits into Hex or Blender, re-shape the heels into flats, and import that as a morph (and I expect tutorials on that will teach me how to re-inject the zeroed out heel poses  to do it) but, once that's done, do you think there's a viable market for that as a thing? "Sensible Shoes for X", "Sensible Shoes for Y" - it'd have to be super-cheap to be saleable, but it wouldn't sell many copies, either, right?  So how long would it take, and how many would have to sell to make all the making, texturing, injecting, and all the song and dance to get them accepted as products worthwhile...?

Whenever I have an idea like this, I tend to assume the reason it's not a thing is because people with a lot more experience have already considered it and decided the math doesn't work out, right?  Are these assumptions correct:

A - It would have to be done on an outfit by outfit basis.

B - It would take two hours, per outfit, bare minimum.

C - packaging it for sale in the marketplace would require at least another 3-4 hours (promo render, product render, actual file packaging, etc.)

D - Most people aren't going to buy it at all, and those who do won't pay more than a buck or three unless it just happens to be that one outfit they really wanted to use (luck of the draw) 

E - They're going to buy it on sale anyway, so you're making what... $.25, $.50 per, max? So...

F - let's say the equation is V * H / P = X where V is Value of your time (Let's say $25 for ease of math), H is hours invested (6?), P is profit, your cut per sale (let's say $.25, again for ease of math) = X

Solve for X gets us a threshold of 600 have to sell for each one to earn out?  Is that about right?  So are there anything like six hundred people who'd buy it - even as a step toward making that outfit male-friendly?

Probably talk to a vendor about the legality of selling this sort of add-on to a preexisting product since you can't simply repackage their product.  It isn't that high heels are more popular... modelers say that they are easier to model though....

AllenArt

I've modeled shoes and flat shoes are MUCH easier ;). If you want an accurate heel you need to model on a posed foot, which brings another level of complexity, or at least it did for Poser anyway.

Laurie

JOdel

Eh, I just replace the stupid heeled shoes (or boots, 90% of the time) with ones that have low heels or flat ones or something. Generally I can slap a shader on to make them stylisticly compatable. 

It would be easy enough to hide the stupid heels, with or without a matt zone for them. Might leave a hole that would need hiding, or care in posing. But the fact is that things that have been modled with heels usually look all wrong with the foot posed flat. They tend to distort all over the place.

Griffin Avid

I agree with JOdel. As much as I've felt that heels are far too common with EVERY kind of outfit for every genre for EVERY intended purpose, I understand their appeal.

It's fantasy art, after all - so you might as well go all out. I tend to....

I usually just swap/kit-bash a bunch of flat boots or flat shoes.
Shaders do it.....and if I must have an exact match, both the outfit and the shoes get the same, new shaders.

kyoto kid

...what gets me are all the high and spike heeled Sci Fi boots I see considering that so many Sci Fi/futuristic settings have floors that are gratings or nice slick metal with seams to catch a heel on.  Those big bad aliens and BEMs must just love seeing that when they're chasing the heroine wearing heels down a starship or space station corridor..

function

I like high heel, espesically Super high heel, ballet deformed heel, Locked ...

The reason, super high heel is not common in real life, it is hard for women to wear, but, we are talking about digital CG life, why not add some brilliant stuff in your dream?

Griffin Avid

 that so many Sci Fi/futuristic settings have floors that are gratings or nice slick metal with seams to catch a heel on.

You're also assuming that most things from sci-fi settings are beholden to today's materials and standards.

Like all Sci-Fi you have the choice to embrace the science-inner-workings of that fictional universe or bring your own real-world ideas and assume some things/nothing makes sense.

Depending on the writer/illustrator, your mileage will vary.

----------------

But onward, there are many things in the Daz Studio or Daz store system to complain about and most replies/rebuttals deal with $ales Numbers.

I haven't found a good way to argue against someone's bottom line concerns.

cdpro_2831bbd990

I tend to do a lot of barefoot renders. Heels just don't look right to me for most outfits. Perhaps a universal shoe product with multiple material styles to match varying genres would be a good idea...Are you listening, Aeon Soul?

Griffin Avid

Have you ever come across Patchwork Shoes by esha?

https://www.daz3d.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=patchwork shoes

That's basically the idea.

Details

Have you ever found the cutest shoes, but they didn't have the heel you wanted?

Now your problem is solved with this mix-and-match pack. Soles and uppers are separate items, and the pieces will fit together across all the packs, current and upcoming.

This set features moderate heels and a country-style bootee, four texture sets and extra material options to switch off the side straps. It also includes a default foot pose for Genesis 2 Female(s) and a preset to fit the sole of Patchwork Shoes 2 to the boot shape.

The textures are color-coordinated to match the other Patchwork sets, but they will fit many other DAZ sets, too.

Drip

I constantly run into outfits that I think look awesome, and then.. Oh, flat moonboots again. So yes, I'd agree that it would be awesome if boots and shoes came with some kind of morph to both add and remove high heels. Ideally even morphs for a variety of heels (high, low, stiletto, wedge, wide sole, narrow sole, ribbed sole, flat sole). Sadly, that'd be a LOT of work for the designers to create, though one might sometime create some sort of "blueprint" for this, to use as a base for future shoe designs.

What's worse: I can generally easily fit flat shoes of previous generations on newer G3/G8 figures. Heeled shoes on the other hand, even with the Clothing Converter scripts currently available, remain problematic. So whenever I look at an outfit now, I immediately look whether it has heels, and also whether those heels are of a generic design I don't have yet, so I might combine them with other outfits lacking heels.

Griffin Avid

Actually, there is a pair of shoes that have morphs for the heels.

I wouldn't even make the attempt to find it.

It's somewhere in my library though.

Mazh

Griffin Avid said:

Actually, there is a pair of shoes that have morphs for the heels.

I wouldn't even make the attempt to find it.

It's somewhere in my library though.

Age of Armour's Swashbuckler boots (V4) have heels options

https://www.daz3d.com/swashbuckler-boots

 

katherinepoche_e11a5b0e7e

I agree that there should be two versions of the shoes. Absolutely HATE heels, especially with armor. Usually, I replace the shoes with something without a heel but sometimes you just what to use the shoes that came with the outfit.

Odaa

DigitalSteam said:

Ok, so I know I'm in a sharp and tiny minority when I look at outfits, think "Wow, this one looks really great!" and then see high heels, groan an exaggerated, melodramatic groan, and close the tab because I now deem the outfit unusable.  I get it.  Not even all women consider heels to be ridiculous, unwearable atrocities. ('Course, not all women have ridden rodeo, been a soldier and an MP, fought in full and partial medieval armour, driven a truck, worked construction, fought martial arts, raced BMX, fought light weapons, done their own stunts, or "manned" a siege engine, either. ;) )

So, yeah... I would LOVE it if every outfit that has high heels also had a morph for flats or functional heels (like combat boots, hiking boots, or cowb'y boots) but I know there's probably not much market for it, and I don't wanna make everyone else wear my shoes any more than I want to wear theirs, so the question becomes this:  

I imagine I can take those outfits into Hex or Blender, re-shape the heels into flats, and import that as a morph (and I expect tutorials on that will teach me how to re-inject the zeroed out heel poses  to do it) but, once that's done, do you think there's a viable market for that as a thing? "Sensible Shoes for X", "Sensible Shoes for Y" - it'd have to be super-cheap to be saleable, but it wouldn't sell many copies, either, right?  So how long would it take, and how many would have to sell to make all the making, texturing, injecting, and all the song and dance to get them accepted as products worthwhile...?

Whenever I have an idea like this, I tend to assume the reason it's not a thing is because people with a lot more experience have already considered it and decided the math doesn't work out, right?  Are these assumptions correct:

A - It would have to be done on an outfit by outfit basis.

B - It would take two hours, per outfit, bare minimum.

C - packaging it for sale in the marketplace would require at least another 3-4 hours (promo render, product render, actual file packaging, etc.)

D - Most people aren't going to buy it at all, and those who do won't pay more than a buck or three unless it just happens to be that one outfit they really wanted to use (luck of the draw) 

E - They're going to buy it on sale anyway, so you're making what... $.25, $.50 per, max? So...

F - let's say the equation is V * H / P = X where V is Value of your time (Let's say $25 for ease of math), H is hours invested (6?), P is profit, your cut per sale (let's say $.25, again for ease of math) = X

Solve for X gets us a threshold of 600 have to sell for each one to earn out?  Is that about right?  So are there anything like six hundred people who'd buy it - even as a step toward making that outfit male-friendly?

Someone mentioned this in passing, but alot of times the heel is its own material zone, separate from the sole. When that is the case, the easiest thing to do is to make it invisble in the surfaces tab.

miladyderyni_173d399f47

I too prefer flat to medium heels, whether I am wearing them or doing art. Usually I end up swapping or kitbashing like JOdel & Griffin Avid if I don't want the heels.I love trying different shaders on clothing, tweaking the colors and so on anyway, so it doesn't bother me most of the time. Now when I don't have the time for that, it would be nice to just click on a morph or separate figure.

Two low heel boots I have are: Flat Boots for G2 Females https://www.daz3d.com/flat-boots-2-for-genesis-2-female-s & Tall Lace-up Boots for V4 https://www.daz3d.com/tall-lace-up-boots-for-v4

The V4 set looks nice but I always had trouble with poke-through and usually had to resort to hiding legs and feet, so might not be easily usable on later generations. If the G3 boots also had knee or calf high versions, I'd use them more. (If anyone knows how to DIY the shorter looks, please tell me!)

 

A couple people have mentioned having both high and low/flat footwear included in clothing sets. I'd love that, but it might be so much extra work that the product would have to be priced out of what people would be willing to pay.

JOdel

kyoto kid said:

...what gets me are all the high and spike heeled Sci Fi boots I see considering that so many Sci Fi/futuristic settings have floors that are gratings or nice slick metal with seams to catch a heel on.  Those big bad aliens and BEMs must just love seeing that when they're chasing the heroine wearing heels down a starship or space station corridor..

Two words: reduced gravity.

I think that's the only way you'd get me onto those spikes.

FSMCDesigns

JOdel said:

Eh, I just replace the stupid heeled shoes (or boots, 90% of the time) with ones that have low heels or flat ones or something. Generally I can slap a shader on to make them stylisticly compatable. 

It would be easy enough to hide the stupid heels, with or without a matt zone for them. Might leave a hole that would need hiding, or care in posing. But the fact is that things that have been modled with heels usually look all wrong with the foot posed flat. They tend to distort all over the place.

This! I own nearly every pair of heels on the markets for G3 and G8 and would buy more if they were made, but I do like a little believability and do opt for flatter heels or sandals for warrior women at times. I am all for options, as long as vendors don't stop making stilettos, LOL

My GF asked me what 3 things I liked for her to wear and in a heartbeat it was makeup, nails, and heels, LOL. Luckily she it very cool with all three.

dracorn

Depends on my render as to what I use. My gal in a cat suit loves her high heels... the martial artist, not so much. So I kitbash.

3Diva

Some PAs make the heel a separate material zone, which makes them easy to hide by turning the opacity to zero, like with the Super Hero Suit for Genesis 2. I love when PAs do that as it makes it much easier to use the shoes if you don't like high heels. I wish more PAs would do that.

But you can also modify the geometry to hide the heel pretty easily in Daz Studio. Select Tools >> Geometry Editor. Zoom in on the heel, hold down Control and "Paint" the heel with the Geometry Editor tool. Once the whole heel is selected right click and select Geometry Assignment >> Create Surface from Selected. Name it like "New Heel 1" then go to the surfaces tab and turn the Opacity of "New Heel 1" to zero.

Wonderland

Divamakeup said:

Some PAs make the heel a separate material zone, which makes them easy to hide by turning the opacity to zero, like with the Super Hero Suit for Genesis 2. I love when PAs do that as it makes it much easier to use the shoes if you don't like high heels. I wish more PAs would do that.

But you can also modify the geometry to hide the heel pretty easily in Daz Studio. Select Tools >> Geometry Editor. Zoom in on the heel, hold down Control and "Paint" the heel with the Geometry Editor tool. Once the whole heel is selected right click and select Geometry Assignment >> Create Surface from Selected. Name it like "New Heel 1" then go to the surfaces tab and turn the Opacity of "New Heel 1" to zero.

Thanks Diva. I personally like high heels but found this very useful for other things. I was always curious about the geometry editor and you make it sound easy. (I hope...) 

3Diva

Wonderland said:

Divamakeup said:

Some PAs make the heel a separate material zone, which makes them easy to hide by turning the opacity to zero, like with the Super Hero Suit for Genesis 2. I love when PAs do that as it makes it much easier to use the shoes if you don't like high heels. I wish more PAs would do that.

But you can also modify the geometry to hide the heel pretty easily in Daz Studio. Select Tools >> Geometry Editor. Zoom in on the heel, hold down Control and "Paint" the heel with the Geometry Editor tool. Once the whole heel is selected right click and select Geometry Assignment >> Create Surface from Selected. Name it like "New Heel 1" then go to the surfaces tab and turn the Opacity of "New Heel 1" to zero.

Thanks Diva. I personally like high heels but found this very useful for other things. I was always curious about the geometry editor and you make it sound easy. (I hope...) 

I think it's pretty easy, but like most things, it gets easier with practice. I did this in less than two minutes:

 

It's not a perfect solution since the geometry is only one sided - so you'll want to not render the bottom of the shoe. Also be sure to turn the Environment >> Ground Position Mode >> Manual. Daz Studio still thinks there is a heel there, even though you've hidden it, so you'll have to make sure the ground position is set to manual.

Wonderland

Divamakeup said:

Wonderland said:

Divamakeup said:

Some PAs make the heel a separate material zone, which makes them easy to hide by turning the opacity to zero, like with the Super Hero Suit for Genesis 2. I love when PAs do that as it makes it much easier to use the shoes if you don't like high heels. I wish more PAs would do that.

But you can also modify the geometry to hide the heel pretty easily in Daz Studio. Select Tools >> Geometry Editor. Zoom in on the heel, hold down Control and "Paint" the heel with the Geometry Editor tool. Once the whole heel is selected right click and select Geometry Assignment >> Create Surface from Selected. Name it like "New Heel 1" then go to the surfaces tab and turn the Opacity of "New Heel 1" to zero.

Thanks Diva. I personally like high heels but found this very useful for other things. I was always curious about the geometry editor and you make it sound easy. (I hope...) 

I think it's pretty easy, but like most things, it gets easier with practice. I did this in less than two minutes:

 

It's not a perfect solution since the geometry is only one sided - so you'll want to not render the bottom of the shoe. Also be sure to turn the Environment >> Ground Position Mode >> Manual. Daz Studio still thinks there is a heel there, even though you've hidden it, so you'll have to make sure the ground position is set to manual.

Cool! I love heels but flip flops are cool too! (And great for younger characters...) 

Wonderland

Off topic, but can you make a window in a wall this way???

3Diva

Wonderland said:

Off topic, but can you make a window in a wall this way???

I don't see why not. You'd have to set up some sort of "frame" around the hidden geometry ...otherwise it would just look like a hole in the wall. lol

nicstt

DigitalSteam said:

Ok, so I know I'm in a sharp and tiny minority when I look at outfits, think "Wow, this one looks really great!" and then see high heels, groan an exaggerated, melodramatic groan, and close the tab because I now deem the outfit unusable.  I get it.  Not even all women consider heels to be ridiculous, unwearable atrocities. ('Course, not all women have ridden rodeo, been a soldier and an MP, fought in full and partial medieval armour, driven a truck, worked construction, fought martial arts, raced BMX, fought light weapons, done their own stunts, or "manned" a siege engine, either. ;) )

So, yeah... I would LOVE it if every outfit that has high heels also had a morph for flats or functional heels (like combat boots, hiking boots, or cowb'y boots) but I know there's probably not much market for it, and I don't wanna make everyone else wear my shoes any more than I want to wear theirs, so the question becomes this:  

I imagine I can take those outfits into Hex or Blender, re-shape the heels into flats, and import that as a morph (and I expect tutorials on that will teach me how to re-inject the zeroed out heel poses  to do it) but, once that's done, do you think there's a viable market for that as a thing? "Sensible Shoes for X", "Sensible Shoes for Y" - it'd have to be super-cheap to be saleable, but it wouldn't sell many copies, either, right?  So how long would it take, and how many would have to sell to make all the making, texturing, injecting, and all the song and dance to get them accepted as products worthwhile...?

Whenever I have an idea like this, I tend to assume the reason it's not a thing is because people with a lot more experience have already considered it and decided the math doesn't work out, right?  Are these assumptions correct:

A - It would have to be done on an outfit by outfit basis.

B - It would take two hours, per outfit, bare minimum.

C - packaging it for sale in the marketplace would require at least another 3-4 hours (promo render, product render, actual file packaging, etc.)

D - Most people aren't going to buy it at all, and those who do won't pay more than a buck or three unless it just happens to be that one outfit they really wanted to use (luck of the draw) 

E - They're going to buy it on sale anyway, so you're making what... $.25, $.50 per, max? So...

F - let's say the equation is V * H / P = X where V is Value of your time (Let's say $25 for ease of math), H is hours invested (6?), P is profit, your cut per sale (let's say $.25, again for ease of math) = X

Solve for X gets us a threshold of 600 have to sell for each one to earn out?  Is that about right?  So are there anything like six hundred people who'd buy it - even as a step toward making that outfit male-friendly?

Nope. I don't buy products with heels unless it makes sense - such as an evening dress or similar. I don't buy products that have them if they are 'ninja' type products - or similar.

miladyderyni_173d399f47

Divamakeup said:

Wonderland said:

Divamakeup said:

Some PAs make the heel a separate material zone, which makes them easy to hide by turning the opacity to zero, like with the Super Hero Suit for Genesis 2. I love when PAs do that as it makes it much easier to use the shoes if you don't like high heels. I wish more PAs would do that.

But you can also modify the geometry to hide the heel pretty easily in Daz Studio. Select Tools >> Geometry Editor. Zoom in on the heel, hold down Control and "Paint" the heel with the Geometry Editor tool. Once the whole heel is selected right click and select Geometry Assignment >> Create Surface from Selected. Name it like "New Heel 1" then go to the surfaces tab and turn the Opacity of "New Heel 1" to zero.

Thanks Diva. I personally like high heels but found this very useful for other things. I was always curious about the geometry editor and you make it sound easy. (I hope...) 

I think it's pretty easy, but like most things, it gets easier with practice. I did this in less than two minutes:

 

It's not a perfect solution since the geometry is only one sided - so you'll want to not render the bottom of the shoe. Also be sure to turn the Environment >> Ground Position Mode >> Manual. Daz Studio still thinks there is a heel there, even though you've hidden it, so you'll have to make sure the ground position is set to manual.

Thank you! I've been wary of doing anything to the geometry of anything, I needed some encouragement and help!

Silly question--Do I have to do anything to the ground position, or is that just like any other translation?

3Diva

I'm not sure I understand the question.

You'll want to make sure to set the ground position mode to Manual: Render Settings Tab >> Environment >> Ground Position Mode >> Manual

Then when you pose your figure just make sure to move the figure down so that the bottom of the shoe is touching the floor. :)

kyoto kid

Griffin Avid said:

Have you ever come across Patchwork Shoes by esha?

https://www.daz3d.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=patchwork shoes

That's basically the idea.

Details

Have you ever found the cutest shoes, but they didn't have the heel you wanted?

Now your problem is solved with this mix-and-match pack. Soles and uppers are separate items, and the pieces will fit together across all the packs, current and upcoming.

This set features moderate heels and a country-style bootee, four texture sets and extra material options to switch off the side straps. It also includes a default foot pose for Genesis 2 Female(s) and a preset to fit the sole of Patchwork Shoes 2 to the boot shape.

The textures are color-coordinated to match the other Patchwork sets, but they will fit many other DAZ sets, too.

...but noe of those are compatible with G3, Just G2 and G8.  As we all know, footwear is the toughest to fit between generations.