Allegorithmic (Substance Painter/Designer etc) Joining With Adobe

L'Adair

Richard Haseltine said:

L'Adair said:

Daikatana said:

I guess I am the lone outlier here but I have had a very good experience with the adobe photography plan.  I get photoshop and Lightroom for just over $10 a month.  In addition I get access to great tutorials and adobe has added to that bundle without changing my cost over the last three years.  I wanted photoshop for years but it had a price tag that kept it out of reach.  Now for the cost of two cups of decent coffee a month , I have what I want.  For a hobbyist on a budget, it’s been a tremendous value.

You're not the lone outlier, @Daikatana. I know a lot of people who are happy with their photoshop subscription. And while you can't use the software if you let your subscription lapse, you can sign up again at a later date without paying a penalty.

I'd have been subscribing to the entire CC package since the beginning if there was some sort of loyalty plan, in spite of owning a perptual license for the CS6 Master Collection. But I won't get used to the new features of Photoshop only to lose them when I can't afford a subscription, (which is pretty much now, actually.)

I guess it's just us older folk who remember all the things we had to do in order to afford the software who are not happy with the subscription-only model.

I was under the impression, from various posts, that using CC disabled any older licenses (CS6 or before) - but that may have been incorrect or a temporay glitch.

I have no idea. I do know that when Adobe first went to Subscription-only, they stated we could always fall back on CS6 if we stopped the subscription. They even continued to sell CS6 for some time. I don't know when they stopped selling CS6 on their website, though. I've heard it is next to impossible to buy from them now.

I do think there would be legal ramifications to them disabling older licenses.

DustRider

Very true, in many cases software subscription can make software that is otherwise out of reach, more affordable, or at least significantly lower initial capital outlay. I have considered it several times, but so far I've always found a usable alternative to going subscription, often for free. I've seriously looked at Substance several times, but so far the need hasn't been that great. Now that there is no possibility of having a permanent license, It will be even less attractive.

Like Wolf noted, I think in the near future, most software will go subscription. My biggest issue with subscriptions is that if you drop it, you also loose all access to the files you created, unless there is an easy way to convert them to a format usable in another program you might have.

ArtisanS said:

No really this whole situation only points squarly in on direction.....Open Source Software.....currently we as Blender users are all enyoing an upgrade to 2.8 and EEVEE. It's a Beta but I allready used it in anger on an industrial video. And Blender gives you (in Cycles and in EEVEE) the possibiliy to make FULLY procedural materials that do not repeat themselves after 2 meters as the standard material in Substance painter do so often (you can edit but with limitations). And texture editing in Blender is also greatly upgraded in comparison to 2.79.

I find myself in a very similar situation to ArtisanS. All of the discussion here made me realize that this trend to subscription software (which I fully understand, and see why it would be preferred for a company to do this) could possibly push users to use, and more importantly, financially support similar Open Source software. Just as an example, I've finally started seriously learning Blender 2.8 because it is sooo much easier for me to learn/use now, and it fits my needs for other projects with a single software. So, instead of doing a subscription plan for a software I lose if I decide to quit paying for, I'm considering joining the Blender Development Fund. A few dollars a month to help support the development of a software I can continue to use if I decide to quite paying .... what a concept. Also, like Laurie just did, I think I will also start donating more for other FOSS software I use. To me it just makes sense, because even with modest donations, the cost is much less than buying or subscribing to the commercial alternative.

Just last Thurs. I did a big public presentation that included several animations and images done with FOSS software (as a side note, it also had one animation and several stills done with Carrara). It took me less than 12 hours to set up and render a "photo real"  1080p one minute 30fps animation in Blender using Eevee. This was the first time I had ever really used Blender! It took me about 4 hours to import my model, set up the shaders, lighting, and animation (keep in mind I had to learn how to do everything in Blender except for how to import the model). Then the animation took about 3 hours to render (while I slept), and the quality was amazing! I would not have been able to do an animation with the same image quality and speed using any other software I currently have (I could have even tried to use Maya). So, yes, I am pretty sure now that a portion of the funds that would have gone to a "subscription" software, will instead be used for a membership in the Blender Development Fund. Why pay for something that you lose when you quite paying, when there is a great alternative that you can use for free, and freely provide financial support for if you find it truly beneficial.

So with other the other options available (thinking of Blender addons - some free, some $$$, but all of them I will be able to use without a monthly fee), I doubt that I will ever use substance now.

nicstt

kimh said:

That's why I buy Corel products. I have the option of updating my products when I want to. They offer product assurance if you want to buy the yearly thing so you can get all updates. I don't because the upgrade price is actually cheaper for me when I decide to do so. And there is no limit to how many versions behind you are. Photoshop (. abr) brushes are compatible with Paintshop pro.

I still have a copy of PaintShop Pro 4; I actually like it's pencil line tool better than what's in Photoshop. It also still works, although it does complain during installation.

nicstt

hphoenix said:

wolf359 said:

McGyver said:

 

I just wanted to point out that the idea of having a subscription in addition to being able to purchase the software is not a bad idea...

It gives people the option to affordably try it out for a while and see if it’s good... it allows people who can’t afford it, to use it on a need basis.

Filter Forge is a good example of a company with both options... subscribe if you like, or buy if that’s your thing.

Its just when subscription is your only option that it is terrible.

The problem is that those "purchased"
stand alone versions will end up on the torrent networks
undoing  half of the reason for the existance of the 
subscription versions.

This is a fallacy.  Just because something is available illegally for free does NOT mean that those who want to purchase it will simply go the torrent route, nor will those who go the torrent route have been likely to buy the software if it had not been availble for free.  There will always be a few who do, but those add up to a very tiny fraction.

Subscription models also don't always block piracy.  It depends heavily on how much of the software resides off the computer, and how easily it can be patched around by the various crackers out there.

If I see a car with the windows down and the keys in it, so I could get the car for free, will I just jump in and drive off?  No.  Will someone who regularly steals cars and gets away with it bother to buy one if they reduce the prices to only double what they could afford?  No.

SaaS and Subscription models are great for companies and professionals, since they can write-off the costs on their taxes regardless, and they get to amortize the costs.  For hobbyists, students, and others.....they reduce the bar for entry, but end up being much more expensive in the long run (as those groups will rarely need all the features that the professionals and big corporate users will) nor is upgrading as much of a concern.

If I pay $15/month for CC, for example.  If the cost to purchase it free-and-clear were comparable to when it was available in such a fashion, I would have to pay for 50 months (roughly, $750) to 'own' the software.  That's just over 4 years.  At the end of those 4 years, do I need to upgrade?

I still use Photoshop 7.0.  It has most of the features I need, and the few it doesn't, I have other applications that can manage it.  Why would I need to have continually paid for it since I got it some 15 years ago?  And if I stopped paying, would lose access to it?

The SaaS and Subscription models have gained popularity with the large corporations as it gives them CONTROL over the application and its usage, as well as providing more consistent revenue streams.  That control used to be in the hands of the consumer.  And to me, that change in control is a BAD thing.

 

+1

I phone Microsoft a few months ago as I was re-installing Windows 10 Pro; it was complaining about the licence I'd paid for and I needed to phone up to activate it.

I was told when I complained that it was for security reasons.

I then pointed out, it wasn't for my security; the person I spoke to refused to comment on that point. Companies are quick to sell features as benefits, or sell features as benefits, whilst forgetting to point out the benefit is for them.

kyoto kid

McGyver said:

 

I just wanted to point out that the idea of having a subscription in addition to being able to purchase the software is not a bad idea...

It gives people the option to affordably try it out for a while and see if it’s good... it allows people who can’t afford it, to use it on a need basis.

Filter Forge is a good example of a company with both options... subscribe if you like, or buy if that’s your thing.

Its just when subscription is your only option that it is terrible.

...Octane is the same.

Taoz

L'Adair said:

Richard Haseltine said:

L'Adair said:

Daikatana said:

I guess I am the lone outlier here but I have had a very good experience with the adobe photography plan.  I get photoshop and Lightroom for just over $10 a month.  In addition I get access to great tutorials and adobe has added to that bundle without changing my cost over the last three years.  I wanted photoshop for years but it had a price tag that kept it out of reach.  Now for the cost of two cups of decent coffee a month , I have what I want.  For a hobbyist on a budget, it’s been a tremendous value.

You're not the lone outlier, @Daikatana. I know a lot of people who are happy with their photoshop subscription. And while you can't use the software if you let your subscription lapse, you can sign up again at a later date without paying a penalty.

I'd have been subscribing to the entire CC package since the beginning if there was some sort of loyalty plan, in spite of owning a perptual license for the CS6 Master Collection. But I won't get used to the new features of Photoshop only to lose them when I can't afford a subscription, (which is pretty much now, actually.)

I guess it's just us older folk who remember all the things we had to do in order to afford the software who are not happy with the subscription-only model.

I was under the impression, from various posts, that using CC disabled any older licenses (CS6 or before) - but that may have been incorrect or a temporay glitch.

I have no idea. I do know that when Adobe first went to Subscription-only, they stated we could always fall back on CS6 if we stopped the subscription. They even continued to sell CS6 for some time. I don't know when they stopped selling CS6 on their website, though. I've heard it is next to impossible to buy from them now.

I do think there would be legal ramifications to them disabling older licenses.

Yes, I'm pretty sure about that too.

kyoto kid

nicstt said:

kimh said:

That's why I buy Corel products. I have the option of updating my products when I want to. They offer product assurance if you want to buy the yearly thing so you can get all updates. I don't because the upgrade price is actually cheaper for me when I decide to do so. And there is no limit to how many versions behind you are. Photoshop (. abr) brushes are compatible with Paintshop pro.

I still have a copy of PaintShop Pro 4; I actually like it's pencil line tool better than what's in Photoshop. It also still works, although it does complain during installation.

...that's the last version of PSP I have as well. I particularly like it for it's layering functions as well as it's text tool because they are so easy to use and the text tool makes use of my entire font library. Gimp on the other hand has more filters available, is also compatible with Photoshop brushes, (need PSP 6 for that), and I like it's selection tools more.

nonesuch00

Even though it's not manatory I like Blender's optional monthly subscription offer. No yearly contract that amounts to essentially the cost of buying the SW outright in most cases but you wind up without a perpetual license. A quarterly subscription would be OK.

AllenArt

Oh crud, I totally forgot to mention that Photoshop filters work in Affinity Photo in my earlier post. NIK filters work exactly as they do in Photoshop :). 

Laurie

Kev914

Well, I pretty feel the same as L'Adair on this. But I did sign up for the subscription eight months ago after refusing to since they start it. I have every version of Photoshop since 4.5.

When I signed up for Photoshop 2018 CC. their app said there was an update for CS6. I tried to install it, but it kept failing. I then tried to install it manually, but it said I wasn't entitled to that update. After searching the internet, I found that I have to uninstall CS6 and then install it using their app. I have also read, that if you discontinue the subscription that CS6 will no longer work.(maybe that's only if you install that special update?)  People said they tried to uninstall and then re-install and it still wouldn't work. They said that had to contact Adobe, and they had to do something to allow CS6 to work again. Can't verify that what I read is true, as I haven't let my subscription lapse yet. But it's something to look forward too. I guess.

Szark

Since I haven't used Vue in a while I totally missed that they went subscription only too, oh well such as life. If I even want to play with PBR in Vue I will sign up but that has forced me to think really long and hard about it. 

AllenArt

Szark said:

Since I haven't used Vue in a while I totally missed that they went subscription only too, oh well such as life. If I even want to play with PBR in Vue I will sign up but that has forced me to think really long and hard about it. 

That was another program on my list that has now been crossed off. At this rate, I'll have more money for Daz. LOL. (as if I don't spend more than enough already).

Laurie

L'Adair

DustRider said:

… All of the discussion here made me realize that this trend to subscription software (which I fully understand, and see why it would be preferred for a company to do this) could possibly push users to use, and more importantly, financially support similar Open Source software. …

@DustRider, I posted something like that in the part 1 of the Allegorithmic thread, (very wordy, of course. lol) I'm including the quote from the post I was responding to:

Still for anyone proclaiming they need professional software, 10 bucks a month is ridiculously cheap. No matter how long you pay it, Photoshop for 10 bucks a month is a steal. Even if you paid this for 10 years, you'd still be at a total of what the software would probably cost by then if you bought a perpetual license. But you also got all updates on the way that you would have had to buy separately with perpetual. Whether or not you wanted/needed those updates is a different topic of course, but that's the math.

I think it all comes down to whether or not one considers software a "product" or a "service."

For decades, software has been sold as a product. Whether you download it, or get it on disk, you have a somewhat tangible file, (or files,) in your possession that allows you to install the software on your computer. If you get a new computer, you can use the file/disk to install the software on your new computer, (with some limitations spelled out in the license.)

Adobe is trying to change the perception of software as a product, redefining it as a service, something you pay for the use of for a finite period of time. Like cable or cell service. If you buy into that definition, then you won't have a problem with the fact you lose access when you cannot pay the subscription service.

But what happens when it's not just one software suite? What happens when we have to pay Adobe for all our graphics programs, and Microsoft/Apple/etc. for an operating system and office apps, and who knows who else for what other programs that become necessities in our workflow?

What happens is more people turn to open source software, donating to projects that can't be bought up or sold out.

In short, software as a service is not a sustainable business model. I don't care how big Adobe is. Their current success with subscription-only software has other companies looking to do the same. At some point, the need to pay subscriptions for software will outstrip the market's ability to pay. New businesses will be started by people who turned their back on proprietary software, and who won't turn back to it later. Those businesses will be looking to hire people who are experienced running the open source programs they use. Demand for people who are comfortable and productive using Linux and Linux based programs will become the hiring norm.

And software companies that relied on the subscription-only format will be scrambling to sell perpetual licenses again. But I predict it will be too little, too late and the markets those companies hope to win back will have all but dried up.

There's a bit more, specific to Allegoritmic. 

This thread is proof it isn't necessary for all the big software companies to go subscription-only for people to start looking for open source alternatives. But for large numbers of people to turn to Linux and other open source alternatives, I suspect it will have to be a "straw and the camel's back" scenario. At least for many older folks. Perhaps the younger generations are already using Linux. (I've tried, but my brain is too entrenched in Windows.)

wolf359

This is a fallacy.  Just because something is available illegally for free does 
NOT mean that those who want to purchase it will simply go the torrent route, 
nor will those who go the torrent route have been likely to buy the software if it had not been availble for free.  
There will always be a few who do, 
but those add up to a very tiny fraction.

Your personal theories about what motivates people dont really matter to the software companies.

Even if we remove torrents from the equation there is the matter of people not buying upgrades
because their old versions still run on their current OS or even keep older machines & OS's on "life support" to run older applications.
those people stop paying for years.

This stalls revenue as well which is why it makes no business sense for these sub based application companies to continue to offerFull stand alone  perpetual versions after they have started a subscription based model that kills the app the moment you miss a payment.

AllenArt

RAMWolff said:

L'Adair said:

McGyver said:

This isn’t really a solution but I came across this a few days before I read about Allegorithmic going Adobe... https://armorpaint.org  It’s still in development, it’s not really like substance painter, but it’s definitely something to keep an eye on and unless l’m mistaken, it’s open source...

And then of course there is Mari- Non commercial... the alternative I keep forgetting about, which is good for hobbyists on a NON-COMMERCIAL basis... https://www.foundry.com/products/mari/non-commercial

And two other things, which could be useful to some people in this situation...

•Awesome Bump... https://github.com/kmkolasinski/AwesomeBump

•This one is a little more difficult to understand... http://www.pixaflux.com/index.php

Armorpaint needs a new logo… My heart skipped a beat when I opened the page to see a big fat Adobe logo in the middle of the banner! It took me a few seconds to realize it's not Adobe's logo, but their own. LOL

Just watched a vid on this.  No undo yet.  So you make a mistake your stuck with it.  Not usable like that!  

Control+Z. The newest version at least (.5a) has it :)

Silent Winter

AllenArt said:

RAMWolff said:

L'Adair said:

McGyver said:

This isn’t really a solution but I came across this a few days before I read about Allegorithmic going Adobe... https://armorpaint.org  It’s still in development, it’s not really like substance painter, but it’s definitely something to keep an eye on and unless l’m mistaken, it’s open source...

And then of course there is Mari- Non commercial... the alternative I keep forgetting about, which is good for hobbyists on a NON-COMMERCIAL basis... https://www.foundry.com/products/mari/non-commercial

And two other things, which could be useful to some people in this situation...

•Awesome Bump... https://github.com/kmkolasinski/AwesomeBump

•This one is a little more difficult to understand... http://www.pixaflux.com/index.php

Armorpaint needs a new logo… My heart skipped a beat when I opened the page to see a big fat Adobe logo in the middle of the banner! It took me a few seconds to realize it's not Adobe's logo, but their own. LOL

Just watched a vid on this.  No undo yet.  So you make a mistake your stuck with it.  Not usable like that!  

Control+Z. The newest version at least (.5a) has it :)

^yep - and you can set the number of undo levels yourself (0-64). (There's also Redo - but it's the ctrl-shift-z from Blender rather than ctrl-y (which I believe is more standard)).

There's also the ability to use layers now.
The problem with Armor Paint review videos at the moment is that it's rapidly changing (being still in alpha/beta depending on function).

They need to add alpha options to the brushes, and masks to the layers, but it's coming along well.

AllenArt

Silent Winter said:

AllenArt said:

RAMWolff said:

L'Adair said:

McGyver said:

This isn’t really a solution but I came across this a few days before I read about Allegorithmic going Adobe... https://armorpaint.org  It’s still in development, it’s not really like substance painter, but it’s definitely something to keep an eye on and unless l’m mistaken, it’s open source...

And then of course there is Mari- Non commercial... the alternative I keep forgetting about, which is good for hobbyists on a NON-COMMERCIAL basis... https://www.foundry.com/products/mari/non-commercial

And two other things, which could be useful to some people in this situation...

•Awesome Bump... https://github.com/kmkolasinski/AwesomeBump

•This one is a little more difficult to understand... http://www.pixaflux.com/index.php

Armorpaint needs a new logo… My heart skipped a beat when I opened the page to see a big fat Adobe logo in the middle of the banner! It took me a few seconds to realize it's not Adobe's logo, but their own. LOL

Just watched a vid on this.  No undo yet.  So you make a mistake your stuck with it.  Not usable like that!  

Control+Z. The newest version at least (.5a) has it :)

^yep - and you can set the number of undo levels yourself (0-64). (There's also Redo - but it's the ctrl-shift-z from Blender rather than ctrl-y (which I believe is more standard)).

There's also the ability to use layers now.
The problem with Armor Paint review videos at the moment is that it's rapidly changing (being still in alpha/beta depending on function).

They need to add alpha options to the brushes, and masks to the layers, but it's coming along well.

Think I read that alphas at least, is up next for version .6

Laurie

Phoenix1966

Richard Haseltine said:

L'Adair said:

Daikatana said:

I guess I am the lone outlier here but I have had a very good experience with the adobe photography plan.  I get photoshop and Lightroom for just over $10 a month.  In addition I get access to great tutorials and adobe has added to that bundle without changing my cost over the last three years.  I wanted photoshop for years but it had a price tag that kept it out of reach.  Now for the cost of two cups of decent coffee a month , I have what I want.  For a hobbyist on a budget, it’s been a tremendous value.

You're not the lone outlier, @Daikatana. I know a lot of people who are happy with their photoshop subscription. And while you can't use the software if you let your subscription lapse, you can sign up again at a later date without paying a penalty.

I'd have been subscribing to the entire CC package since the beginning if there was some sort of loyalty plan, in spite of owning a perptual license for the CS6 Master Collection. But I won't get used to the new features of Photoshop only to lose them when I can't afford a subscription, (which is pretty much now, actually.)

I guess it's just us older folk who remember all the things we had to do in order to afford the software who are not happy with the subscription-only model.

I was under the impression, from various posts, that using CC disabled any older licenses (CS6 or before) - but that may have been incorrect or a temporay glitch.

I have the current CC Photoshop and CS 5.1 installed on the same drive. I frequentlly work with the two versions.. My license for CS5.1 was not disabled.

rayglendenning

nonesuch00 said:

rayglendenning said:

Even though it's not manatory I like Blender's optional monthly subscription offer. No yearly contract that amounts to essentially the cost of buying the SW outright in most cases but you wind up without a perpetual license. A quarterly subscription would be OK.

The Blender subscription is totally different, as well as being voluntary, you don't lose access to all of YOUR content when you stop paying (ransomware).  I happily pay towards Blender development (I'm sitting here watching Babylon 5 and fondly remembering Lightwave and the Video Toaster!)

Ildanach

Allegorithmic have said that they won't be changing their current pricing structure.

L'Adair

Ildanach said:

Allegorithmic have said that they won't be changing their current pricing structure.

Yes, with the caveat "for now."

They are saying anyone with the Indie license subscription will be able to purchase the perpetual license after 12 months for $49. And anyone with a perpetual license will retain that license.

The bigger question, which they are unable to answer, is how will the pricing structure change in the future and how will those changes affect existing licensees. At what point will we no longer be able to buy a maintenance agreement for the software? At what point will feature updates be limited to the CC versions? And so on.

ArtisanS

I jumped the gun and bit the bullet and went for a perpetual license. I hope that Adobe remembers the common (as opposed law-speak in a case law society) meaning of the world perpetual.....as in until the universe turns to a cold cinder.....not that I like SP and SD verry much but it sure beats texturing with Gimp, Krita, Blender and Metashape. What was odd was that my maintenence period was said to stop a 3-2-2019.....I would have guessed 25-1-2020. But hey......I don't care that much for upgrades for what essentially has become orfened software.

 

wolf359

rayglendenning said:

wolf359 said:

rayglendenning said:

wolf359 said:

Even though it's not manatory I like Blender's optional monthly subscription offer. No yearly contract that amounts to essentially the cost of buying the SW outright in most cases but you wind up without a perpetual license. A quarterly subscription would be OK.

The Blender subscription is totally different, as well as being voluntary, you don't lose access to all of YOUR content when you stop paying (ransomware).  I happily pay towards Blender development (I'm sitting here watching Babylon 5 and fondly remembering Lightwave and the Video Toaster!)

You have your quotes confused mate
I have not mentioned Blender in this thread .
that passage you quoted was made by
@nonesuch00

RAMWolff

AllenArt said:

RAMWolff said:

L'Adair said:

McGyver said:

This isn’t really a solution but I came across this a few days before I read about Allegorithmic going Adobe... https://armorpaint.org  It’s still in development, it’s not really like substance painter, but it’s definitely something to keep an eye on and unless l’m mistaken, it’s open source...

And then of course there is Mari- Non commercial... the alternative I keep forgetting about, which is good for hobbyists on a NON-COMMERCIAL basis... https://www.foundry.com/products/mari/non-commercial

And two other things, which could be useful to some people in this situation...

•Awesome Bump... https://github.com/kmkolasinski/AwesomeBump

•This one is a little more difficult to understand... http://www.pixaflux.com/index.php

Armorpaint needs a new logo… My heart skipped a beat when I opened the page to see a big fat Adobe logo in the middle of the banner! It took me a few seconds to realize it's not Adobe's logo, but their own. LOL

Just watched a vid on this.  No undo yet.  So you make a mistake your stuck with it.  Not usable like that!  

Control+Z. The newest version at least (.5a) has it :)

Hmmm, I guess the vid I watched is older then. Thanks for the info Laurie!  

AllenArt

RAMWolff said:

AllenArt said:

RAMWolff said:

L'Adair said:

McGyver said:

This isn’t really a solution but I came across this a few days before I read about Allegorithmic going Adobe... https://armorpaint.org  It’s still in development, it’s not really like substance painter, but it’s definitely something to keep an eye on and unless l’m mistaken, it’s open source...

And then of course there is Mari- Non commercial... the alternative I keep forgetting about, which is good for hobbyists on a NON-COMMERCIAL basis... https://www.foundry.com/products/mari/non-commercial

And two other things, which could be useful to some people in this situation...

•Awesome Bump... https://github.com/kmkolasinski/AwesomeBump

•This one is a little more difficult to understand... http://www.pixaflux.com/index.php

Armorpaint needs a new logo… My heart skipped a beat when I opened the page to see a big fat Adobe logo in the middle of the banner! It took me a few seconds to realize it's not Adobe's logo, but their own. LOL

Just watched a vid on this.  No undo yet.  So you make a mistake your stuck with it.  Not usable like that!  

Control+Z. The newest version at least (.5a) has it :)

Hmmm, I guess the vid I watched is older then. Thanks for the info Laurie!  

You bet :)

Laurie

ArtisanS

RAMWolff said:

SnowSultan said:

I like this news. I paid $150 for Substance Painter before they went to a subscription plan and now I have an outdated version because I didn't want to pay a recurring fee for a program I hardly use. I use Photoshop CC all the time, so if it ends up not being too expensive to add Substance Painter to the plan, I'll definitely add it. The possibility of their commercial texture libraries being added to the Creative Cloud subscription plan would be a very nice change if it were to occur.

I really don't know why people criticize Adobe. Photoshop is the alpha and omega of graphic software, nothing comes close. I tried three alternatives to After Effects and none of them were as intuitive or stable. They've almost eliminated the mass piracy of Photoshop with the subscription plan while making it affordable to practically all artists. Their last large free CC update added thousands of quality brushes and new masking features that would have probably resulted in a $300 upgrade option for the pre-CC versions. Not really sure where all the hate comes from.

You stated it best.  I subscribe to Adobe Photoshop CC 2019 and I'm fine paying $9.99 a month for it so we shall see what the rent model for Substance Painter will be.  I don't use their whole suite and have barely cracked open Painter but perhaps they will start to meld both PS with SP and might end up with a very powerful 3D painter app, that would be totally cool!  This isn't happening right away either, this will all take place over the next few years from what I remember of the email from Allegorithmic 

RamWolf,

I would be fine to pay 9.99 for PS a month.....in Europe we pay a bit more depending on the version.....we have a 145 euro option with 20 Gb cloud (I don't need cloud so this would be my take on things) and a 290 euro option with 1 Tb cloud. The full creative cloud is 840 euro a year......that about a grand. For a lot of software I would not be using. It would clog up my machine, slow down my program up times (a freind of mine has it running on a high end Mac (double Xeon and full SSD and even he complains). Therefore I switched to Open Source for my 2D needs ages ago. I use Krita for drawing pixel art, Gimp (32 bit version as of version 10) for photoediting, my raw converter is DxO or even Silkypics 3.0 which also gets the job done (Panasonic). Film editing is done in Blender, Natron and the free version of BlackMagic's DaVinci....for rendering I use Cycles, EEVEE, Iray and Unreal Engine 4 (lightning fast and clean enough for most purposes)......in one project if it pleases me.

Now I understand the logic behind the subscription model. If software dominates the market and upgrades only ad marginal benefits (that most people don't need) then you maybe a succesfull company with lost of (naging) customers, but you sales will drop.....therefore I supported Allegorithmic on a monthly basis as most of the serious customers did. That 24 euro bought me the hope that Allegorithmic would improve the gripes I had with the software and a grab of 30 more or less cool materials on their Substance Source. It worked for me at least. But being in limbo about the future of my pipeline is not something I like te be. So I changed my subscription to perpertual (what ever that means) and will take a year or so to phase it out of my pipeline. Done that, been there.......no problemo ((c) Alf).

Greets

RAMWolff

Daikatana said:

I guess I am the lone outlier here but I have had a very good experience with the adobe photography plan.  I get photoshop and Lightroom for just over $10 a month.  In addition I get access to great tutorials and adobe has added to that bundle without changing my cost over the last three years.  I wanted photoshop for years but it had a price tag that kept it out of reach.  Now for the cost of two cups of decent coffee a month , I have what I want.  For a hobbyist on a budget, it’s been a tremendous value.

YUP and updates are free rather than the cost of a heafty upgrade cost for a perpetual license.  Nice to put that in a context that makes folks think.... how much do allot of us spend at a cafe' for something that's gone in 1/2 hour?  

Blood-PawWerewolf

I went for the $19.99 indie licensing. Since a majority of my PayPal spending is subscriptions, I can probably cancel a few if it suddenly jumps to adobe’s $50/month subscription. I’m probably going to cancel my octane render subscription for a while since I got a better computer that runs iray a lot faster.