Iray Versus Octane Renderer in Daz

13

Comments

  • Luv LeeLuv Lee Posts: 220
    edited December 2018
    joseft said:
    Luv Lee said:
    joseft said:

    i have not been using Octane actively for a while, but i think only extremely heavy scenes require that many samples normally. I would certainly try the AI lights, and also adaptive sampling if you are not already. 

    The difference between the two scenes you posted, one has far more lighting and plenty of specular reflections. From memory specular reflections could always be tricky in octane, especially when there are light sources in the scene having to travel through glass-like materials like windows. If any of your lights fit that description, try removing the glass to see the difference. I would also change the material of that floor, make it more diffuse with less/no specular/reflection to see if that cleans up faster. Then troubleshoot from there

    Indeed, I find specular is the beast we all have to wrestle with in render engignes.  I have tried  all manner of things to correct this, indlcuiing brightening scenes and/or lowering specular on some items or adding low spec shaders--some times helps but not by much. Can only hope one day they figure outa quick fix for the spec/noise issue....

    It is more evident in unbiased renderers than biased ones, or more difficult to manage at the very least. One of the reasons i prefer Redshift over Octane

    Tried to find info on redshift--is it DAZ compatible?

    Post edited by Luv Lee on
  • joseftjoseft Posts: 224
    Luv Lee said:
    joseft said:
    Luv Lee said:
    joseft said:

    i have not been using Octane actively for a while, but i think only extremely heavy scenes require that many samples normally. I would certainly try the AI lights, and also adaptive sampling if you are not already. 

    The difference between the two scenes you posted, one has far more lighting and plenty of specular reflections. From memory specular reflections could always be tricky in octane, especially when there are light sources in the scene having to travel through glass-like materials like windows. If any of your lights fit that description, try removing the glass to see the difference. I would also change the material of that floor, make it more diffuse with less/no specular/reflection to see if that cleans up faster. Then troubleshoot from there

    Indeed, I find specular is the beast we all have to wrestle with in render engignes.  I have tried  all manner of things to correct this, indlcuiing brightening scenes and/or lowering specular on some items or adding low spec shaders--some times helps but not by much. Can only hope one day they figure outa quick fix for the spec/noise issue....

    It is more evident in unbiased renderers than biased ones, or more difficult to manage at the very least. One of the reasons i prefer Redshift over Octane

    Tried to find info on redshift--is it DAZ compatible?

    unfortunately not, and not likely that it ever will be.

    They develop their plugins inhouse. Daz Studio already has iRay integrated with loads and loads of presets and content available out of the box from the store specifically for it, and probably the biggest percentage of Daz users use it (along with iRay) purely because it is effective as a plug-and-play package. Load, Pose and Render. 

    They are not likely to think that the investment required to develop the plugin would be worth it given the potential userbase will not be large.

    I rarely render inside of Daz these days, i export assets and characters out in order to make use of more powerful tools available in software like C4D and Maya. Redshift is available for both of them, along with Houdini, Softimage and 3DS Max

  • Luv LeeLuv Lee Posts: 220
    joseft said:
    Luv Lee said:
    joseft said:
    Luv Lee said:
    joseft said:

    i have not been using Octane actively for a while, but i think only extremely heavy scenes require that many samples normally. I would certainly try the AI lights, and also adaptive sampling if you are not already. 

    The difference between the two scenes you posted, one has far more lighting and plenty of specular reflections. From memory specular reflections could always be tricky in octane, especially when there are light sources in the scene having to travel through glass-like materials like windows. If any of your lights fit that description, try removing the glass to see the difference. I would also change the material of that floor, make it more diffuse with less/no specular/reflection to see if that cleans up faster. Then troubleshoot from there

    Indeed, I find specular is the beast we all have to wrestle with in render engignes.  I have tried  all manner of things to correct this, indlcuiing brightening scenes and/or lowering specular on some items or adding low spec shaders--some times helps but not by much. Can only hope one day they figure outa quick fix for the spec/noise issue....

    It is more evident in unbiased renderers than biased ones, or more difficult to manage at the very least. One of the reasons i prefer Redshift over Octane

    Tried to find info on redshift--is it DAZ compatible?

    unfortunately not, and not likely that it ever will be.

    They develop their plugins inhouse. Daz Studio already has iRay integrated with loads and loads of presets and content available out of the box from the store specifically for it, and probably the biggest percentage of Daz users use it (along with iRay) purely because it is effective as a plug-and-play package. Load, Pose and Render. 

    They are not likely to think that the investment required to develop the plugin would be worth it given the potential userbase will not be large.

    I rarely render inside of Daz these days, i export assets and characters out in order to make use of more powerful tools available in software like C4D and Maya. Redshift is available for both of them, along with Houdini, Softimage and 3DS Max

    Ah I see... thank you.

  • ArtiniArtini Posts: 4,629
    joseft said:

    i have not been using Octane actively for a while, but i think only extremely heavy scenes require that many samples normally. I would certainly try the AI lights, and also adaptive sampling if you are not already. 

    The difference between the two scenes you posted, one has far more lighting and plenty of specular reflections. From memory specular reflections could always be tricky in octane, especially when there are light sources in the scene having to travel through glass-like materials like windows. If any of your lights fit that description, try removing the glass to see the difference. I would also change the material of that floor, make it more diffuse with less/no specular/reflection to see if that cleans up faster. Then troubleshoot from there

    Thanks for the excellent tips.

  • ArtiniArtini Posts: 4,629

    Thanks a lot Luv Lee.

  • ArtiniArtini Posts: 4,629

    I have looked at Redshift, too, but it is too expensive for me.

     

  • Luv LeeLuv Lee Posts: 220
    Artini said:

    Thanks a lot Luv Lee.

    No problemo... :-)

  • ArtiniArtini Posts: 4,629
    edited December 2018

    Another scene - 2480 s/px 3.751 Ms/sec, rendering time: 22 minutes 59 seconds

    I have to make another test, but it seems, that render time in Octane 4 depends on the rendered image size.

    image

    test01pic05.jpg
    1920 x 1080 - 496K
    Post edited by Artini on
  • ArtiniArtini Posts: 4,629
    edited December 2018

    Octane does not like to render scenes with many light sources - the punishment for that, is the noise and the extended render time.

    5000 s/px Rendering time: 40 minutes 29 seconds

    image

    test01pic04.jpg
    1920 x 1080 - 907K
    Post edited by Artini on
  • ArtiniArtini Posts: 4,629
    edited December 2018

    Just tried to filter out the noise in Topaz Studio - the result is below,

    but I do not know, if it looks better.

    image

    test01pic04tensaiOujiDenoise.jpg
    1920 x 1080 - 729K
    Post edited by Artini on
  • joseftjoseft Posts: 224
    Artini said:

    Another scene - 2480 s/px 3.751 Ms/sec, rendering time: 22 minutes 59 seconds

    I have to make another test, but it seems, that render time in Octane 4 depends on the rendered image size.

    image

    bigger image size = longer render time is true of every render engine

    more pixels in the image means more pixels the renderer has to sample. think of the unit of measurement octane uses to measure render progress - samples per pixel. Its going to take longer for the renderer to sample 10,000 pixels 5000 times, than it is to sample 5,000 pixels 5000 times

  • So Artini I assume it safe to bet that every single thing you ever do is darned cool looking! Bravo once again

  • DustRiderDustRider Posts: 2,098
    edited December 2018
    Artini said:

    Octane does not like to render scenes with many light sources - the punishment for that, is the noise and the extended render time.

    5000 s/px Rendering time: 40 minutes 29 seconds

    image

    Did you try AI lighting with this? Typically it really reduces the time required for the render to clear up. Also, no need to send the image to an external image processor, enable the AI denoiser and things will clear up even faster (the longer you let it run, the more definition the image will get).

    As Joseft mentioned, any render engine will take longer as you increase the image size. Simply doubling the image size will quadruple the number of pixels that the render engine needs to resolve (and often increase the time needed to render the image by nearly 4x).

    Impressive scene!

    Post edited by DustRider on
  • Luv LeeLuv Lee Posts: 220
    Artini said:

    Just tried to filter out the noise in Topaz Studio - the result is below,

    but I do not know, if it looks better.

    image

    Never heard of Topaz--what is that?  Where can I find it?

  • MattymanxMattymanx Posts: 6,089
    edited December 2018
    Artini said:

    I have looked at Redshift, too, but it is too expensive for me.

    Iray is normally $295 USD as a plugin for 3D Studio Max & Maya.

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    My appoligies to all for the rest of my original comment.  I was not at all clear nor correct in anyway and it was meant only as an assumption and not as fact.  Sorry for any misleadings!

    Post edited by Mattymanx on
  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 31,573
    edited December 2018

    ...and Redshift is only compatible with expensive Pro grade software like Maya, 3DS and C4D (there's not even a Blender interface).

    Post edited by kyoto kid on
  • ArtiniArtini Posts: 4,629
    edited December 2018

    Thanks everyone for your kind words and the tips.

    It makes me spend more time on Octane renders, as much as I can.

    Post edited by Artini on
  • ArtiniArtini Posts: 4,629
    edited December 2018
    Luv Lee said:
    Artini said:

    Just tried to filter out the noise in Topaz Studio - the result is below,

    but I do not know, if it looks better.

    image

    Never heard of Topaz--what is that?  Where can I find it?

    Just search on Google for Topaz Studio - I am not sure if I can link it here.

    It is made by, guess: Topaz Labs

     

    Post edited by Artini on
  • linvanchenelinvanchene Posts: 1,303
    edited December 2018

    Edited: Rephrased in a more structured way. 

    Mattymanx said:
    Artini said:

    I have looked at Redshift, too, but it is too expensive for me.

    Iray is normally $295 USD as a plugin for 3D Studio Max & Maya.  What Daz has done for everyone is pay a fee to Nvidia to ship iray with DS.  We as customers, all pay for it when we buy the content.

     

    - - -

    Is this just speculation or the official truth?

    In 2015 people said Octane was not chosen as new default render engine for DAZ Studio because it was not free.

    Did DAZ3D instead pay Nvidia for Iray that already in 2015 had less features when it was released as Octane had in 2013?

    - - -

    It is known based on forum posts that Otoy and the OctaneRender for DAZ Studio plugin developer were not notified by DAZ3D that the plans had changed in 2015.

    They were taken by surprise as any DAZ3D customers who already had invested a lot of time, energy and money into Octane.

    After Iray was introduced in DAZ Studio published artists did not anymore release content with Octane materials set up in the DAZ3D store.

    Otoy went on and made Octane truly free for Unity.

    Instead of licensed content for Octane in the DAZ3D store the result is licensed content competing in the Unity store.

    - - -

    My Questions:

    1) Is some of the money that regular customers spend in the DAZ3D store used so other customers can use Iray for free?

    2) What exactly happened between 2013 and 2015 that DAZ3D decided to support Iray instead of Octane?

    3) Who exactly recommended DAZ3D staff to go with Iray knowing that some of the paying customers are already using Octane?

    4) Who exactly thought that it is a better idea to pay Nvidia for Iray to license it to customers instead of working with Otoy and having access to Octane for free?

    5) Are any of the people responsible for those decisions still working at DAZ3D or affiliated in the form of published artists?

    6) Does DAZ3D currently have any plans to correct the situation and work again with Otoy?

    - - -

    Submitted Questions in ticket: #287473

    Post edited by linvanchene on
  • Luv LeeLuv Lee Posts: 220

     After Iray was introduced in DAZ Studio published artists did not anymore release content with Octane materials set up in the DAZ3D store.

    ***IKR and I was bummed because RED SPECS stuff was amazing...

     

    - - -

    My Questions:

    1) Is some of the money that regular customers spend in the DAZ3D store used so other customers can use Iray for free?

    2) What exactly happened between 2013 and 2015 that DAZ3D decided to support Iray instead of Octane?

    3) Who exactly recommended DAZ3D staff to go with Iray knowing that some of the paying customers are already using Octane?

    4) Who exactly thought that it is a better idea to pay Nvidia for Iray to license it to customers instead of working with Otoy and having access to Octane for free?

    5) Are any of the people responsible for those decisions still working at DAZ3D or affiliated in the form of published artists?

    6) Does DAZ3D currently have any plans to correct the situation and work again with Otoy?

    - - -

    Submitted Questions in ticket: #287473

    Dude, all really good questions. Please post a follow-up....

  • Luv LeeLuv Lee Posts: 220
    Artini said:
    Luv Lee said:
    Artini said:

    Just tried to filter out the noise in Topaz Studio - the result is below,

    but I do not know, if it looks better.

    image

    Never heard of Topaz--what is that?  Where can I find it?

    Just search on Google for Topaz Studio - I am not sure if I can link it here.

    It is made by, guess: Topaz Labs

     

    LOL!!!! Okay kewlio. TY :-)

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 31,573
    edited December 2018

    ...well again for people like myself the subscription track is a welcome addition particularly given what Octane is capable of. 20$ a month to get our of core rendering is a big incentive as suddenly even with a 4 GB GPU the process doesn't dump entirely to the CPU as it does with Iray once all the VRAM is filled. 

    On another note, am hoping to see more side by side render comparisons (along with process benchmarks) between Iray and Octane in Daz 3D. Particularly interested in seeing teh differences in how skin and hair are handled.  My system is still down as I am doing a full rebuild with some additional updating after the HDD crash..

    Post edited by kyoto kid on
  • Luv LeeLuv Lee Posts: 220
    kyoto kid said:

    ...well again for people like myself the subscription track is a welcome addition particularly given what Octane is capable of. 20$ a month to get our of core rendering is a big incentive as suddenly even with a 4 GB GPU the process doesn't dump entirely to the CPU as it does with Iray once all the VRAM is filled. 

    On another note, am hoping to see more side by side render comparisons (along with process benchmarks) between Iray and Octane in Daz 3D. Particularly interested in seeing teh differences in how skin and hair are handled.  My system is still down as I am doing a full rebuild with some additional updating after the HDD crash..

    I know, I was circling that myself and was like, dude, I already have subscriptions on stuf like Hulu, Netflix, Adobe Creative suites packages. Can't really do another for 19 bucks... as much as I really, really, really want to.

  • bluejauntebluejaunte Posts: 1,344
    Luv Lee said:
    kyoto kid said:

    ...well again for people like myself the subscription track is a welcome addition particularly given what Octane is capable of. 20$ a month to get our of core rendering is a big incentive as suddenly even with a 4 GB GPU the process doesn't dump entirely to the CPU as it does with Iray once all the VRAM is filled. 

    On another note, am hoping to see more side by side render comparisons (along with process benchmarks) between Iray and Octane in Daz 3D. Particularly interested in seeing teh differences in how skin and hair are handled.  My system is still down as I am doing a full rebuild with some additional updating after the HDD crash..

    I know, I was circling that myself and was like, dude, I already have subscriptions on stuf like Hulu, Netflix, Adobe Creative suites packages. Can't really do another for 19 bucks... as much as I really, really, really want to.

    From the FAQ:

    OctaneRender 4 free Tier FAQ:

    A free version of Octane 4 will be released under a new subscription tier, limited to 2 GPUs maximum and only available in certain plug-ins.

    When will it be released?

    You can already use the full version of Octane 4 for free inside Unity. Other plug-ins, will roll out around Q1 2019, shortly after we complete all the work on the all-access multiple subscriptions. 

    What tools besides Unity will be supported?

    Blender is next. We are looking at tools that are free to use, like Blender, for the free tier, but we may add others in time. 

    Although:

    Will future versions of Octane be supported in the free tier?

    For 2018.1 and later, we may need to rethink the 2 GPU limit as a differentiation from the paid tiers . it is meaningless when two GPUs give you 800-1000 OB and 22 GB to 50 GB of combined VRAM:

  • Luv LeeLuv Lee Posts: 220
    Luv Lee said:
    kyoto kid said:

    ...well again for people like myself the subscription track is a welcome addition particularly given what Octane is capable of. 20$ a month to get our of core rendering is a big incentive as suddenly even with a 4 GB GPU the process doesn't dump entirely to the CPU as it does with Iray once all the VRAM is filled. 

    On another note, am hoping to see more side by side render comparisons (along with process benchmarks) between Iray and Octane in Daz 3D. Particularly interested in seeing teh differences in how skin and hair are handled.  My system is still down as I am doing a full rebuild with some additional updating after the HDD crash..

    I know, I was circling that myself and was like, dude, I already have subscriptions on stuf like Hulu, Netflix, Adobe Creative suites packages. Can't really do another for 19 bucks... as much as I really, really, really want to.

    From the FAQ:

    OctaneRender 4 free Tier FAQ:

    A free version of Octane 4 will be released under a new subscription tier, limited to 2 GPUs maximum and only available in certain plug-ins.

    When will it be released?

    You can already use the full version of Octane 4 for free inside Unity. Other plug-ins, will roll out around Q1 2019, shortly after we complete all the work on the all-access multiple subscriptions. 

    What tools besides Unity will be supported?

    Blender is next. We are looking at tools that are free to use, like Blender, for the free tier, but we may add others in time. 

    Although:

    Will future versions of Octane be supported in the free tier?

    For 2018.1 and later, we may need to rethink the 2 GPU limit as a differentiation from the paid tiers . it is meaningless when two GPUs give you 800-1000 OB and 22 GB to 50 GB of combined VRAM:

    Hummm interesting....

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 31,573
    edited December 2018

     

     

    Luv Lee said:
    kyoto kid said:

    ...well again for people like myself the subscription track is a welcome addition particularly given what Octane is capable of. 20$ a month to get our of core rendering is a big incentive as suddenly even with a 4 GB GPU the process doesn't dump entirely to the CPU as it does with Iray once all the VRAM is filled. 

    On another note, am hoping to see more side by side render comparisons (along with process benchmarks) between Iray and Octane in Daz 3D. Particularly interested in seeing teh differences in how skin and hair are handled.  My system is still down as I am doing a full rebuild with some additional updating after the HDD crash..

    I know, I was circling that myself and was like, dude, I already have subscriptions on stuf like Hulu, Netflix, Adobe Creative suites packages. Can't really do another for 19 bucks... as much as I really, really, really want to.

    ...yeah not a television junkie so no media subscriptions (and to think I grew up in the "television generaion" of the 50s and 60s when the worst punshment was not being able to watch for a week).  Considered just the Adobe PS subscription but I really don't do a lot in post and Gimp suits those needs just fine. So, this would be my first sfotware subscription (which I have budgeted for since i first heard about it).

    Adding Blender to the free tier would be a major step.  In the 2.8 Beta (which as i understand is very stable), they have made many changes to the UI and functionality which make it more intuitive for beginners (and more such improvements may be added before the full public release next summer).

    Post edited by kyoto kid on
  • Luv LeeLuv Lee Posts: 220
    kyoto kid said:

     

     

    Luv Lee said:
    kyoto kid said:

    ...well again for people like myself the subscription track is a welcome addition particularly given what Octane is capable of. 20$ a month to get our of core rendering is a big incentive as suddenly even with a 4 GB GPU the process doesn't dump entirely to the CPU as it does with Iray once all the VRAM is filled. 

    On another note, am hoping to see more side by side render comparisons (along with process benchmarks) between Iray and Octane in Daz 3D. Particularly interested in seeing teh differences in how skin and hair are handled.  My system is still down as I am doing a full rebuild with some additional updating after the HDD crash..

    I know, I was circling that myself and was like, dude, I already have subscriptions on stuf like Hulu, Netflix, Adobe Creative suites packages. Can't really do another for 19 bucks... as much as I really, really, really want to.

    ...yeah not a television junkie so no media subscriptions (and to think I grew up in the "television generaion" of the 50s and 60s when the worst punshment was not being able to watch for a week).  Considered just the Adobe PS subscription but I really don't do a lot in post and Gimp suits those needs just fine. So, this would be my first sfotware subscription (which I have budgeted for since i first heard about it).

    Adding Blender to the free tier would be a major step.  In the 2.8 Beta (which as i understand is very stable), they have made many changes to the UI and functionality which make it more intuitive for beginners (and more such improvements may be added before the full public release next summer).

    Not TV junkie per se myself, but I am a screenwriter, so I try to keep up with the trends as they were, as they keep changing in the film industry. Only a  few shows I really enjoy though, so when the season ends I binge watch--the tally is about four a year.  I also exercise and I like to veg to a fun show or two as I do so or I can't keep focus, ADD-addled though I am.

  •  

    The OctaneRender 4 / All Access - FAQ provides all the official information:

     

    https://render.otoy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=69646

     

    That FAQ covers all the important questions for

    - monthly subscription customers

    - existing customers with a purchased (Enterprise) Licence

    - OctaneRender 4 free Tier

    - - - 

     

    Could someone clarify this for me please: What is this about "Octane Render for free Tier?" Is there a version that is free?

    Thanks.

    R

  • bluejauntebluejaunte Posts: 1,344

     

    The OctaneRender 4 / All Access - FAQ provides all the official information:

     

    https://render.otoy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=69646

     

    That FAQ covers all the important questions for

    - monthly subscription customers

    - existing customers with a purchased (Enterprise) Licence

    - OctaneRender 4 free Tier

    - - - 

     

    Could someone clarify this for me please: What is this about "Octane Render for free Tier?" Is there a version that is free?

    Thanks.

    R

    Not yet but there will be.

    A free version of Octane 4 will be released under a new subscription tier

    It's only free in Unity at the moment.

  • joseftjoseft Posts: 224
    kyoto kid said:

    ...well again for people like myself the subscription track is a welcome addition particularly given what Octane is capable of. 20$ a month to get our of core rendering is a big incentive as suddenly even with a 4 GB GPU the process doesn't dump entirely to the CPU as it does with Iray once all the VRAM is filled. 

    On another note, am hoping to see more side by side render comparisons (along with process benchmarks) between Iray and Octane in Daz 3D. Particularly interested in seeing teh differences in how skin and hair are handled.  My system is still down as I am doing a full rebuild with some additional updating after the HDD crash..

     

    IMO Octane is overall a much better engine than iRay. However, mainly due to the shader/material structure in Octane, getting good/realistic results for skin can be much more difficult than it is in iRay and other renderers. In particular, getting the layered/translucent effect of skin is probably the hardest part. Octane is certainly capable of doing it, but to achieve it generally requires a very complicated material setup with multiple nested material mixes and your node editor looks like a big jumbled mess of connections. 

    I dont have any side by side comparisons at the moment because i am at work, but what you will see from both engines will certainly be comparable, its just the effort and experience required to get that result that is vastly different.

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