UberEnvironment2 - Can Anybody Explain The Result Of This Simple Test? [UE2 problems/fixes]

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  • ParrisParris Posts: 389

    Let me know if you want more answers ... Otherwise, I'll try to post more as time allows. But I should warn that knowing all that is wrong with UE2 won't give you a way to fix it. It requires developer level access. That it hasn't been fixed by now may vex you, but it is important to know that DAZ developers are a limited resource with a neverending to do list and their time is largely dictated by marketing. Meaning, it isn't a lack of compassion that prevents such things from being updated. DAZ developers are very willing to help, in my experience, just rarely available.

    But there is hope!

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,606

    oh there is alwasy hope but in this case it is more like slim to none. Nice to see you trying though Parris, thanks.

  • ParrisParris Posts: 389

    Thank you, Szark. Nice to see your comment. So two years later I'm not alone, good!

    Ok, here's another answer. I don't have time to post a demonstration image, but anyone wanting to check it should see it is accurate: The preview sphere used in UE2 is insideout and rotated incorrectly by default. How to verify: scale the sphere down to say 5% so it is easy to view the whole thing, then load an image on the preview sphere that has text on it. The text should be not readable (backwards) as you look at the sphere from the outside. But it is readable, proving that the preview sphere is wrong. To be physically correct, and therefore match the actual light, it should be readable from the inside (because the HDRI is supposed to surround you and the scene). Then, the preview sphere has also been rotated to compensate, most likely because it wasn't known that the inversion existed. You could fix this for your self now by importing the preview sphere into any 3d modeling program and flipping the UVs. Then you would rotate it on the y axis so that the seam was on your left as you face the back of the viewport. Things will still be off because of the coordinate space issue, but it at least puts the light and the preview in the same orientation.

  • 3dcheapskate3dcheapskate Posts: 2,352
    edited May 2017

    Thanks Parris, it's good to have the details of the elusive (but no longer semi-mythical) ketthrove's fix, plus the extra details you've provided, if only for historical reasons and completeness !

    As you confirmed it seems to have been a DAZ internal fix (as could have been inferred from Spooky's post), and thus useless to end users.

    Post edited by 3dcheapskate on
  • ParrisParris Posts: 389

    Thanks Parris, it's good to have the details of the elusive (but no longer semi-mythical) ketthrove's fix, plus the extra details you've provided, if only for historical reasons and completeness !

    As you confirmed it seems to have been a DAZ internal fix (as could have been inferred from Spooky's post), and thus useless to end users.

    I am so glad that you saw this! You are the person whose attention I hoped to get the most because you are the OP, the one who originally asked about the fix, and a serious contributor to solving the mysteries of mishap with UE2!

    Ultimately, I think whether Ketthrove's Fix is truly useless depends on how you are defining "end users". If you mean those who would never write or edit a light shader (either in Shader Builder, Shader Mixer, RSL, or other), then yeah - it's not going to help us fix UE2 because we don't have access to editing the shader. But if you intend to write or edit a shader that deals with image based light or image based reflection, you won't be able to do it correctly in 3Delight without having some code that performs the coordinate space conversion. In that context, the Ketthrove fix is still very useful, essential in fact. smiley

  • ParrisParris Posts: 389

    Ok, I was purposefully vague about the "hope" part because I was still wading through a development issue, and I didn't want to give false hope. But I've hit pay dirt, so you guys get first peak (note particularly the render times and hardware):

    Image Based Light Compared: Iray, IBLMLight, and Uber Environment 2

    IBL_Iray_IBLMLight_UE2_Hair.jpg
    2076 x 900 - 790K
  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 14,241

    Very exciting!

    On par render times would definitely draw me back; I kept hitting situations where 3dl was -slower- and lost steam

  • ParrisParris Posts: 389

     

    Very exciting!

    On par render times would definitely draw me back; I kept hitting situations where 3dl was -slower- and lost steam

    Thanks!

    You may find this hard to believe, but as it turns out, when it comes to transmapped hair and GI, it is not 3dl that is slow. It actually has to do with the surface shaders we standardly use. Even if you export a rib from DS and use the standalone version of 3Delight to do the render, the rib is still tainted by the shader issue. So it is not that much faster. By thinking that 3Delight is really slow in this way, we've been operating under the wrong assumption for the better part of a decade.

    I wonder what the speed would be like if I spent the same money on a cpu that I spent on my 980 ti.

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 14,241

    Still eagerly waiting for more from you, Parris. ;)

     

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,606

    I don't often get excited about things but that looks awesome Parris...nice work and impressive. 

  • ParrisParris Posts: 389
    edited May 2017

    Thank you. That is only a tiny part of what I will have to show you soon. This is a product that serves both Iray and 3delight strongly and shifts easily between the two. But 3delight users will not be the red headed step children with this one.smiley

    You will get more bells and whistles because there are currently more opportunities for me to provide them with 3delight.

    Post edited by Parris on
  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,606

    My only advice is make sure you aren't putting in stuff that we don't really need. We had that with an old IBL product some years back (which never got updated)...it had way too many bells and only a few whistles. 

  • ParrisParris Posts: 389
    edited June 2017

    laughGood advice, thanks. But fear not. I'm a user first, so I'm only putting in what I know will be useful and what has been asked for. For instance, control over shadow strength, specular strength, the ability to decouple the background brightness from that of the subject, etc. Let me know if you have questions about any of this. Mind you I think I will need to move this to it's own thread pretty soon. But I will put a link here when I do.

    IBLM Light Properties

    IBLMLightSettings.jpg
    578 x 727 - 64K
    Post edited by Parris on
  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,606

    lol sweet. Yeah being a user myself for only 8 years I can see a side that vendors may not. Nice set of settings and yeah looks straight forward enough, awesome.

  • ParrisParris Posts: 389

    Here's another comparison render. There are some obvious differences about how Iray and 3Delight handle the light. But note that the lighting direction is consistant and I think the quality is comparable.

    Image Based Light: Iray vs. 3delight with IBLMLight

    IBL_Compare_Iray_IBLMLight.jpg
    1384 x 900 - 395K
  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,606

    very comparable givng that you could tweet the 3DL surfaces to make it better but in terms of lighting...freaking awesome

     

  • ParrisParris Posts: 389

    OK IBL Master is finally finished and in Final Review. So you can find out all about it here: https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/215066/ibl-master-image-based-lighting-control-for-both-renderers-a-new-ibl-for-3delight

  • 3dcheapskate3dcheapskate Posts: 2,352
    edited November 2017

    I love the image (linked below) that you posted on the other thread laugh


    Hope it's a success !

    Post edited by 3dcheapskate on
  • ParrisParris Posts: 389
    edited December 2017

    Thank you, 3dcheapskate!!!

    You know your avatar name says it all. I think a lot of people, myself included, are drawn to Daz Studio because it's free (because they're on a budget or trying to be frugal about a hobby that can be difficult to master). So while I like my Iray renders a lot, I'm not fond of the cost that is involved in getting good speed.

    ***Edit***: Sorry, in hindsight I realize that was snarky in critique of decision makers, so I had to change it. I have to admit I don't have all the answers. But there are good reasons why we have Iray. It's good to have both.

    I'm hopeful that people will recognize how this makes Image Based Light easier for everybody, saves time, and money. I hope it wll encourage them to be more creative! I know what I have for Iray users is really solid, but I don't know how many 3delight users are left. Make no mistake though, the 3delight side of this which took me deep, deep, down a rabit hole to fix something that has been broken for many years, was a labor of love for the five of you still doing 3delight renders.smiley

    I only wish I had been working on this two years ago, instead of just January of this year. The timing would have been better I think. But we'll see.

    I'll tell you what I would really love, is if 3delight users came out of the woodwork and said "I'm still here!!!". That would be awsome!

    Post edited by Parris on
  • 3dcheapskate3dcheapskate Posts: 2,352
    edited December 2017

    Yeah, cheapskate by necessity, not through choice ! laugh

    Unfortunately, and largely (but not exclusively) because of problems I had making my own IBL-based DS lighting system in 2013 (which indirectly kicked off this thread, and never really worked properly) I more or less dropped DS in 2014. Since then I almost exclusively use Poser, where my own IBL-based Poser lighting system from 2012 is still part of my default setup and most renders I do.

     

    Post edited by 3dcheapskate on
  • ParrisParris Posts: 389

    Very cool! I didn't know about your background or those accomplishments, so thank you for telling me. Sorry to hear that you had problems with the DS one.

  • Parris, gazing at the gallery and considering random comments made by a group of users decrying some vendors move to Iray only shaders, I think there are many still using 3Delight. I use it from time to time, but I see it as a solver to issues many bring up.. especially memory limitations of Nvidia cards and things Iray just isn't good at that are easy in 3Delight. Kettu and wowie have kept up with trying things to a degree, and still pop up in a thread started long ago. wowie has a PhotoStudio product in the store that was my first and easiest solution to getting a good render out of 3Delight. wowie's work on Gamma 2.2 and shaders and lights show that we can actually get good renders. And Kettu's scripting work substantially sped up rendering with the scripted render. Your solution to the lighting and transmap issues will now help, too. I can't wait for your product to come out!

  • I don't post much on here, but I'm still using 3Delight almost exclusively, and will be buying this product the moment I see it in the store. Looking forward to it!

  • ParrisParris Posts: 389
    edited December 2017

    Timeoff, thank you so much for your support and for deciding that this was something important enough to post about! I don't post much either (very few posts for a PA that has been one here since 2005). But I do visit and read far more than I post and only post when I feel I have something important to add.

     

    Parris, gazing at the gallery and considering random comments made by a group of users decrying some vendors move to Iray only shaders, I think there are many still using 3Delight. I use it from time to time, but I see it as a solver to issues many bring up.. especially memory limitations of Nvidia cards and things Iray just isn't good at that are easy in 3Delight. Kettu and wowie have kept up with trying things to a degree, and still pop up in a thread started long ago. wowie has a PhotoStudio product in the store that was my first and easiest solution to getting a good render out of 3Delight. wowie's work on Gamma 2.2 and shaders and lights show that we can actually get good renders. And Kettu's scripting work substantially sped up rendering with the scripted render. Your solution to the lighting and transmap issues will now help, too. I can't wait for your product to come out!

    Kevin, thank you for sharing all that. It's encouraging. Particularly I'm tickled by how many of us are connected by similar pursuits often without ever talking with one another. I'm very aware of the thread you mention and may post there if I have anything valuable to add. But I'm very appreciative of Kettu and wowie's work! In fact, Kettu's tutorial about how to import EnvLight2 (an IBL shader that distributes with the standalone version of 3delight) helped me to understand how to use ShaderBuilder, served as a catalyst for me learning RSL, which unexpectedly led to building a relationship with the 3delight team and constructing this new IBL. I have yet to thank Kettu for this. But if she doesn't read this, I will seek her out!

    Post edited by Parris on
  • srieschsriesch Posts: 4,171
    Parris said:
     

    I'll tell you what I would really love, is if 3delight users came out of the woodwork and said "I'm still here!!!". That would be awsome!

    ::raises hand::

    I have waaaaay too much 3DL content that would be lost if I went to Iray plus a few things 3DL can do that Iray can't, so I'm still a 3DL user.

  • ParrisParris Posts: 389
    edited December 2017
    sriesch said:
    Parris said:
     

    I'll tell you what I would really love, is if 3delight users came out of the woodwork and said "I'm still here!!!". That would be awsome!

    ::raises hand::

    I have waaaaay too much 3DL content that would be lost if I went to Iray plus a few things 3DL can do that Iray can't, so I'm still a 3DL user.

    Yay, thank you for raising your hand! And DS has always made it possible for you to composit renders so you can take advantage of both Iray and 3DL! But with this the IBL lighting can easily be matched.

    Anyway, I think I kind of messed up, mentioning my desire to hear from 3delight users here, since this is a thread about Uber Environment 2. Sorry. Can we try to continue talk about IBL Master in it's own thread here?:

    https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/215066/ibl-master-image-based-lighting-control-for-both-renderers-a-new-ibl-for-3delight-commercial#latest

    Post edited by Parris on
  • 3dcheapskate3dcheapskate Posts: 2,352
    edited December 2017

    ...Kettu and wowie have kept up with trying things to a degree, and still pop up in a thread started long ago...

    Do you have a link to that thread ? (Edit: I guess it's this Apr 2015 one 3Delight Laboratory Thread: tips, questions, experiments and/or this May 2013 one 3Delight Surface and Lighting Thread )

    Parris said:

    ..Kettu's tutorial about how to import EnvLight2 (an IBL shader that distributes with the standalone version of 3delight) helped me to understand how to use ShaderBuilder...

    Do you have a link to that tutorial ? It sounds as if this is what I needed in 2013 ! (Edit: found it, Envlight2.pdf - this Mar 2017 post in the 3DL Lab thread mentioned above links to a late 2013 Alternative Image-Based Lighting in DAZ Studio tutorial at ShareCG)

    Post edited by 3dcheapskate on
  • ParrisParris Posts: 389

    Yes, sorry for not providing those links. Kettu's tutorial on importing the Envlight2 IBL shader (from 3delight's stand alone distribution) is here: http://www.sharecg.com/v/75671/gallery/3/PDF-Tutorial/Alternative-Image-Based-Lighting-in-DAZ-Studio

    This is an excellent tutorial on how to use Shader Builder. But be warned, though Envlight2 does a very nice job, I had to drop using it with my product because it crashed Daz Studio 9 times out of ten for me on 3 different machines. Originally I approached 3delight to get their permission to use the shader with this product commercially. They said yes, but it's really old. Don't you want to offer something newer?... and things developed from there, which is extremely fortunate because Envlight2 would not have been a viable option for this. It's a very nice shader, but it's creator considers it to be an antique.

  • 3dcheapskate3dcheapskate Posts: 2,352
    edited December 2017

    Thanks. Although I don't think I've seen Kettu's tutorial before, I'd actually tried similar things myself in early 2013. Downloaded the 3DL Standalone, imported SL files into DS, even got the Renderman Interface Spec and made some sense of it. But not enough, and I eventually gave up. Any idea of the expected price-tag for your IBL Master ? I may have to set my sights on winning a DAZ gift voucher or two...

    Post edited by 3dcheapskate on
  • ParrisParris Posts: 389

    Not sure I'm allowed to say the price until it is released. But you can expect that it will be similarly priced to other products which I have spent less time on and competitive with light offerings from other vendors. And of course it will be on sale for the introductory period. Uggh... sorry for the vagueness.

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