10 reasons why I won't upgrade from 8 pro to 8.5 pro.
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Top 10 reasons I won't upgrade from 8.0 pro to 8.5 pro
1. I purchased 8.0 upgrade all the way back on December 19th 2010. When Eovia owned Carrara, they would have had release version 10 or 11 out by now since they typically released 1 full version per year.
2. Eovia's upgrade pricing was usually between $99.00 and sometimes $150.00 WITHOUT having to pay $25.00 - $75.00 for platinum club!
3 Eovia would have went in more of the direction of creating Maya-like tools and techniques, rather than Daz's Puppeteer tools suited more toward noobs that don't know what they're doing with 3D modeling and animation. This is absolutley true and not meant as an insult. When As I was an early adopter of Eovia Carrara back in version 3, I started noticing more similarities in the interface between Carrara and Maya as it progressed all the way up to version 6.
4. Since Daz took over, they kept most of what Carrara already implemented into the program, but they seemed to run into more bug problems as soon as they started flirting with the idea of adding puppeteer into the program which wasn't necessary to do in the first place since Carrara already offered sufficient animation tools in the program. The only reason they added puppeteer into Carrara, is to hopefully attract more of their content customers who have been using daz's free software for a long time which included puppeteer in it. They wanted to offer something familiar and easy to use for a lot of their users. Honestly the animation tools that were already in Carrara really aren't that difficult to use, as long as the user takes the time to learn it a little instead of having a program do it for them.
5. I haven't seen enough difference between 8.0 pro and 8.5 pro in order to upgrade.
6. It took 3 years for Daz to release 1/2 an upgrade version.
7. Daz is overpricing the 1/2 version upgrade. I wouldn't pay $100 or even $85 for it. I might pay $50 for the 8.5 upgrade. Too many people here at daz forget how long it took them to work out all the bugs and fixes before this release. Too many new users don't know or never heard how well Eovia did with the program before Daz acquired it. Too many are just going to accept anything Daz offers and be happy with it, not realizing they are being taken advantage of at those prices and the lengthy time frame it took to work out bugs just to offer a couple to a few significant differences while the rest of the "changes" are pretty close to the same. I can appreciate their efforts, but the amount of time it took them to fix all the bugs in order to give a final release with that upgrade price is just unacceptable in comparison to what Eovia would have done in half the time and cost.
8. I liked the customer support that came with Eovia, they were very helpful from the time I first started the program back in 2003, they were more than glad to help me over the phone with their tech support which made it more personable and was instant! They were also very educated and informative on most issues as they helped resolve those issues right then and there.
9. Daz's tech support is usually only offers tech support via email, which makes me feel like I'm talking to a robot and often when ever I had a trouble shooting question or a bug that needed attention to in the Carrara program, it usually took them anywhere from 2-3 days and sometimes an entire week to get back to me.
10. This is just my opinion, but I like the way "Eovia" rolled off your tongue as you spoke it proudly in your mind or outloud. Now it's just daz? What the heck is daz anyway? Were they supposed to dazzle all of the early eovia carrara adopters?
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Comments
If I told you that DAZ stands for Digital Art Zone, would you change reason 10 to "Still no Millennium Cow!"?
It really should be your #1 reason, but I can understand if you want to just replace #10 now that it's been explained.
I can agree with these 3 reasons.
I have always hated having to come to a website to get help.
I'm hoping the bugs really are fixed. They SHOULD be, by this time.
We really don't need Puppeteer and other things to make Carrara more D|S like.
I didn't agree with point 7 when it was $85.50 upgrade but now they've increased the price by over $100 in seven hours making the upgrade almost double the price they can stick it. I'm bloody outraged by this! That's more than I paid for Carrara six months ago. What kind of marketing hustle is going on here?
We haven't changed the price since the launch. The only thing that has changed was the customer group that receives a 50% discount was expanded to include those that purchased Carrara through multi-pay or upgrade options. You can still get the upgrade for $85.50 if you 1. Own a previous version of Carrara and 2. Are a platinum club member.
We haven't changed the price since the launch. The only thing that has changed was the customer group that receives a 50% discount was expanded to include those that purchased Carrara through multi-pay or upgrade options. You can still get the upgrade for $85.50 if you 1. Own a previous version of Carrara and 2. Are a platinum club member.
I've just checked and the price has changed again. It definitely went up to $285 in my cart and on the website. Whether this was a glitch or not it definitely was not welcome. I'm glad it back to the original price.
PC member, owner of Carrara 8 here. But I'm only seeing a 40% discount and yes, I'm logged in. So still a bit confused, yes. Also, is there a comparison chart around for 8.5 and 8.5 Pro? If I do the upgrade, I'm not quite sure which one is more advantageous to me.
If I told you that DAZ stands for Digital Art Zone, would you change reason 10 to "Still no Millennium Cow!"?
It really should be your #1 reason, but I can understand if you want to just replace #10 now that it's been explained.
Nah. I don't like cows. I grew up half of my childhood and all my teen years near by a dairy in a small town in southern California and it stunk pretty bad. Thanks for the explanation of what Daz is abbreviated for though. I'm still not "dazzled" by this latest update.
while the store was gliching for a little while it looks to be fixed again and all discounts are applying just remove and re-add to your cart
Nah. I don't like cows. I grew up half of my childhood and all my teen years near by a dairy in a small town in southern California and it stunk pretty bad. Thanks for the explanation of what Daz is abbreviated for though. I'm still not "dazzled" by this latest update.
But...
Those were *real* cows!
Digital Cows are MUCH Cooler!
Would you ever see one of the cows you grew up around doing this??
Right now there isn't a side-by-side comparison or a features chart. All of the new features are included in both Pro and Standard, the only difference is the included content. However, pro features from 8.0 are still pro features. This includes 64 bit support, multi-pass rendering, the ocean primitive and more.
If you look at the "What's Included and Features" section for Both 8 Standard and 8.5 pro you will see what the differences are. Everything that is Pro only is marked with "New in Pro"
We haven't changed the price since the launch. The only thing that has changed was the customer group that receives a 50% discount was expanded to include those that purchased Carrara through multi-pay or upgrade options. You can still get the upgrade for $85.50 if you 1. Own a previous version of Carrara and 2. Are a platinum club member.
You're still paying $114.00 - $115.00 either way you look at it for the upgrade at platinum price for 3 months just to receive the upgrade for $85.50 with the $24- $25 tacked on. That would still end up costing more than $99.00 upgrade price Eovia typically offered in their earlier versions. Eovia always had tons of extra models packaged with the program as well. Granted those models weren't usually hi res models but good enough models to play around with and starter packages.
To each his/her own, I guess.
I am currently reminiscing over the glee I found when I've first bought Carrara 8 Pro - and all of the goodies that DAZ gave me then. It's just like that now! :)
I actually came for the great software upgrade. I can see how some folks might not want or even need the added Triax/DSON support. I totally do - as mentioned in other threads. The power that Triax gives us especially combining Carrara 8.5 with DAZ Studio 4.6 Pro is really beneficial to anyone wanting to use figures. Creating your own figures within Carrara, that 'stay within' Carrara is one thing - and doesn't need this upgrade. But that is not to say (not at all) that such work flow won't benefit from this upgrade - as 8.5 Pro is a faster and better Carrara than 8.1 Pro.
Anyways, I wanted to say that the work done to implement the new DSON methods into Carrara is really huge and I'm grateful that it's here. I was a little surprised, at first, by the cost - it was claimed to be a slight cost to add, way back when. But what we're getting is much more than what development had initially intended. Personally, I find it to be altogether a worthy investment, even without the Pro Bundles for V5 and M5. But boy oh boy is that ever making today a bit more fun for me! I love downloading gobs of high quality content! Stuff that I recall drooling over, but haven't had the chance or budget to get yet. Sure, I already owned V5 Pro Bundle, but the M5 Pro Bundle is worth, what... $125? something like that.
I consider this as well:
Q - Do I want DAZ 3D to continue their development of Carrara Pro?
A - Absolutely!
Q - If anything other than 'no', do I expect them to provide this service without any compensation?
A - Absolutely Not!
DAZ 3D software development team has proven to perform and bring us nicely into a niche of being able to something extra special with our content. Content that we come to DAZ 3D to purchase. With the latest developments in DSON and the all new and powerful Daz Studio Pro, Carrara DSON development had to come to a pause. Why make it work with the older version? No... DAZ played it right - as many of us beta testers offered them: Take your time - rather have you be satisfied with a result of 'awe' than to fall short due to time constraints. DAZ took the responses of what was going on with a brand new way of making and handling content via their Brand New figure system - (with which we now have a quadruped in Horse 2 as well!) Triax - and tweaked the tools within Studio to enable their artists to easily work within the new SubD, complete with Geo-Grafting technology. This is huge stuff! And making all of this work with Carrara Pro is insanely cool!
If you have no interest in purchasing dollies, you still have all of these tools at your disposal. Rather than inventing a whole new wheel, or going out to buy the "Character Animation" versions (most expensive) of the other 3d modeling software choices, you can use what we have in Carrara Pro and Daz Studio Pro and make our own creations using the system. DAZ 3D even shows us how!!!
Still... I just wanted to toss in a fraction of my counter-point to any claims that might lead one to believe the DAZ 3D is 'out-of-line' for charging (and then discounting the hell out of it) for their endeavors in this incredible new Carrara. Their original intentions were smaller - hence their earlier claims to be 'a small fee for upgrade' but what they are selling us truly is a leap forward for Carrara and will help to keep this amazing application fresh and driving towards a great future of 3D Authoring. Finally I feel a true connection between Carrara Pro and being able to create top-notch content for DAZ 3D figures. And it's more fun to do than I could ever have hoped for it to be. ;)
Right, I neglected to add:
These same tools that we can present to newcomers to use for filling out their scenes, posing, perhaps even animating, and rendering are the same tools that we can use to create all new content. Not only does this new update allow for better 'use' of content, it allows for 'much better creation' of all new content - without the need of any other software (of course to the discretion of the individual).
Huge!
I read your essay and report on how you think Daz's version upgrades are the most wonderful thing on the planet. Of course it would be for those who don't want to take the time to learn how to truly animate and create models from scratch like the professionals do in order to achieve professional and quality results.
You know how many beginner animators videos I've seen who use Daz's puppeteer program within Carrara or Daz studio and most of them have horrible timing in the animations and the movements of the characters are horribly done. They can't even get their figures to move realistically or even cartoony properly. That's all because they're too lazy to teach themselves how to animate properly, using real tools instead of thinking a program like puppeteer, supposedly made to be more beginner friendly to do most of the work for them. The true and downside to that is, The end results of most of those animations coming from those who don't want to take the time to learn how to truly animate, turns out looking horrible.
The point I was making earlier, Pupeteer wasn't necessary to include into Carrara. It would have been better for the program all around if they just left it out. Then they could have concentrated on spending more time on creating more enhancements and upgrades that would have been even more beneficial. I think puppeteer is a waste of time and money for what the techies put into it.
The only ones who might benefit a little are the beginners that may want to dip their feet into a more advanced program like Carrara. Sooner or later, they may actually try and use Carrara's original animating tools and teach themselves the traditional and true way to animate which will turn out more accurate looking anyway. I know what I'm talking about here. I took a couple of Maya courses and it has helped improve my animation skills drastically!
Daz acquired Eovia in 2006. Way before you purchased Carrara. At the time, version 5 was the latest. Daz has released three and a half updates since.
So I get to pay for an upgrade to finally get a version of the software to (maybe) run stable on my mac, after having bought it in its last version and never being able to utilize it.
And hopefully, it will work so well that I won't need to contact support, because, well...I don't really have the patience anymore to put in a support ticket and then wait a day or two. Get a 4 or 5 word suggestion on what to do, respond to that. Wait a day or two..or three...get another 3 or 4 word support to my followup...still have problems, and then get a comment like "well, we can't duplicate it here." and then have a few more days go by.
DAZ breaks at the drop of a hat, and it's painful. I've had to do clean re-installs a number of times.
If DAZ can't provide real support for it's products - like a human being on a phone...then I guess I'd better just learn to us Poser Pro, having had that since 2008 and up until it's current 2014 version - it integrates easier with Vue.
I've been loyally plunking away a ton of money with DAZ for a few years now - I'd say easily thousands of dollars. I've bought plug-ins and other add-ons and had them break from updates and never be able to use them again, sometimes before I could even fully learn how to use them.
Tired of the way support is handled now. And don't get me wrong, Kraig and the (other?) two people are dedicated, great people. But they obviously are not allowed or able to field calls and haven't for some time now.
Daz acquired Eovia in 2006. Way before you purchased Carrara. At the time, version 5 was the latest. Daz has released three and a half updates since.
If you're going to quote someone, understand what that person is saying and don't misquote them. I had been purchasing Carrara Long before Daz acquired it. I only mentioned in this one sentence that you quoted me on "when" I upgraded to version 8. Also I believe Eovia had already created version 6 then they handed the keys over to daz. I would know this because I had already upgraded to version 6 pro before Daz started selling it. I had to even show proof of my 6 pro purchase upgrade to daz in order to get the 8 pro upgrade. I was also a member of the daz community way back in 2003 as well when i started using Carrara and poser. Don't try to rewrite history you're unaware of.
Can we please keep this discussion civil, The DAZ 3D TOS does say
Nah. I don't like cows. I grew up half of my childhood and all my teen years near by a dairy in a small town in southern California and it stunk pretty bad. Thanks for the explanation of what Daz is abbreviated for though. I'm still not "dazzled" by this latest update.
Dairy, or dairy farm? A dairy is where the raw milk is processed and depending on what it's being processed for can have a "wonderful" smell (usually the whey). A dair farm is where the cows are kept and milked and they have a completely different smell than a dairy! ;-)
While I can understand you're feelings on why puppeteer etc isn't useful for you personally, that may not be the case for others and DAZ3D has to consider the needs and wants of as much of the customer base as possible. While you are wanting to animate more professionally and are wanting to pursue that (and I commend you for that and for your commitment to it), others are just getting introduced to animation and may not even know/realize whether it is something they would even enjoy and for them this is a helpful stepping stone on a path to possibly where you are now and even those who can animate professionally can still utilize puppeteer to do amazing things by applying the advanced knowledge they have in the use of it.
In the end when features are added, DAZ3D has to consider they are creating something for people of varying experience, needs, and wants. They have to create an app that has the tools to help those advanced to flourish, to help those learning to experiment without fear or an over abundance of frustration, and to give steps in between for people to be able to step through the process from beginner to advanced. Adding things like Puppeteer is part of that. It enables a high school student curious about animation to play and get excited about it. It enables a mother or a teacher to experiment to create things that are engaging and fun or funny and get them excited to learn more (or not depending on their needs) as well, and it gives those with experience the ability to quickly do WIP animations to get a feel for what they are working on before doing the larger, full scale, production quality version or even to use it even in final pieces. A tool is as useful or not based on who is using it and the potential and ability they see in it.
While I can understand you're feelings on why puppeteer etc isn't useful for you personally, that may not be the case for others and DAZ3D has to consider the needs and wants of as much of the customer base as possible. While you are wanting to animate more professionally and are wanting to pursue that (and I commend you for that and for your commitment to it), others are just getting introduced to animation and may not even know/realize whether it is something they would even enjoy and for them this is a helpful stepping stone on a path to possibly where you are now and even those who can animate professionally can still utilize puppeteer to do amazing things by applying the advanced knowledge they have in the use of it.
In the end when features are added, DAZ3D has to consider they are creating something for people of varying experience, needs, and wants. They have to create an app that has the tools to help those advanced to flourish, to help those learning to experiment without fear or an over abundance of frustration, and to give steps in between for people to be able to step through the process from beginner to advanced. Adding things like Puppeteer is part of that. It enables a high school student curious about animation to play and get excited about it. It enables a mother or a teacher to experiment to create things that are engaging and fun or funny and get them excited to learn more (or not depending on their needs) as well, and it gives those with experience the ability to quickly do WIP animations to get a feel for what they are working on before doing the larger, full scale, production quality version or even to use it even in final pieces. A tool is as useful or not based on who is using it and the potential and ability they see in it.
These statements I'm making aren't based on "Feelings" as you implied. I'm making these statements from plenty of experience and history using the Carrara program and testing out pupeteer a little and seeing what it can do and is capable of in comparison. You've missed the whole point about a program like Puppeteer integrated into a more advanced 3D program that already has sufficient animating tools that should be used anyway. If you integrate a program like Puppeteer into a program like carrara, That doesn't help the beginner learn how to really animate at all. All it is, is a continuous crutch they've been utilizing to get the job done easier and quicker but less sufficiently and less polished looking.
Programs like puppeteer that claims it'll do most of the work for you, only inhibits the lazier way of animating while crippling people who would really want to learn the traditional and more efficient style of animating. Adding puppeteer to the program defeats the purpose of the carrara program in the animating feature. I'm not too surprised that Daz decided to integrate a simpler program like Puppeteer into Carrara since they're in the business of making and selling models more than software.
The more programs they add into Carrara that are familiar to their free software beginners use and those who have used it for a while, will more than likely traverse over to Carrara eventually.
The POINT I'm making is, why should it be so difficult for everyone to learn a little bit of a different interface and teach themselves new tools? I've had to do that for nearly every program I've used and I don't mind one bit. I like a challenge, because I know I'll benefit and learn more from challenging tasks.
When it comes to art and animation, you can easily tell those who have spent time on their projects, from those who just took the lazy way out and attempted to use programs that'll do most the work or half the work for them.
I don't think the $85.50 upgrade is too steep as it includes a lot of content. As I already own M5 & V5 Pro bundles it would have been nice to have the option of a Pro upgrade without the Genesis content for a lower price.
Concerning animation, is it necessary to use puppeteer in Carrara? I haven't used animation in Carrara extensively but it seems much more versatile than DS. Concerning animation in DS, the quality of the results has a lot to do with the skill of the animator. That also applies to image rendering too.
I doubt that any production house creating animation commercially uses DS or Carrara. If they're creating animations for film then they are going to be using software that is vastly more expensive than either. If that level of quality is what an animator is aiming for then probably DS/Carrara are not a good fit.
You've missed the whole point about a program like Puppeteer integrated into a more advanced 3D program that already has sufficient animating tools that should be used anyway. If you integrate a program like Puppeteer into a program like carrara, That doesn't help the beginner learn how to really animate at all. All it is, is a continuous crutch they've been utilizing to get the job done easier and quicker but less sufficiently and less polished looking.
Programs like puppeteer that claims it'll do most of the work for you, only inhibits the lazier way of animating while crippling people who would really want to learn the traditional and more efficient style of animating. Adding puppeteer to the program defeats the purpose of the carrara program in the animating feature. I'm not too surprised that Daz decided to integrate a simpler program like Puppeteer into Carrara since they're in the business of making and selling models more than software.
The more programs they add into Carrara that are familiar to their free software beginners use and those who have used it for a while, will more than likely traverse over to Carrara eventually.
The POINT I'm making is, why should it be so difficult for everyone to learn a little bit of a different interface and teach themselves new tools? I've had to do that for nearly every program I've used and I don't mind one bit. I like a challenge, because I know I'll benefit and learn more from challenging tasks.
When it comes to art and animation, you can easily tell those who have spent time on their projects, from those who just took the lazy way out and attempted to use programs that'll do most the work or half the work for them.
I've seen amateurish results from Lightwave/Cinema 4D users but that doesn't mean the software isn't up to a lot more which I still think Carrara is. The point is that people may start with puppeteer and then move on to more sophisticated animation if/when they feel the need. DAZ is an accessible route into 3D animation for the many who are on a low budget or don't know whether they will want to continue creating 3D.
What I was saying was that this is a matter of opinion. How each person feels about, can utilize, or find use for a specific tool. While in your opinion it only caters to those who don't want to take the time to "really" animate, that is a matter of opinion based on what you feel is "real animation" what your personal goals are, what other apps you may own, (the list could go on) While something such as puppeteer may not be useful to you or you may feel it can be used as a crutch, I have seen others use it professionally for promotional work etc without any of the issues or drawbacks you outline. How well it is used comes down to the user themselves, the experience they have, the time they wish to take on it, and what they are using it for. DAZ3D themselves have done some very nicely done animations using puppeteer along with other tools. In the end it is just that a tool. You can choose not to use a tool if it isn't what you are looking for (heavens knows there are quite a few I don't use in various apps as they don't suit my pipeline LOL)
I can understand from you perspective that by focusing on puppeteer and adding it it may have detracted from something you would have wanted or could possibly create new bugs or issues where they may have been none but that would be the potential risks with adding new features to any app at any time whether it be the addition of things like the Improved Sequencer, Keyframing and Animation Tools (which I would assume would be of use to you possibly?) to the new subD and smoothing tools etc. To avoid the addition of new things would be to stop the progress of any application. I realize you feel in this specific instance that puppeteer isn't a progress but with any app new additions will be not be useful to some while extremely useful to others. If we stopped adding things because someone said it wasn't useful *we being in the general sense of the term in regard to anyone creating any software* no software would ever progress nor would things you do find personally beneficial be added. They would be released and then nothing new ever added.
Of additional note, I think someone previously may be correct, puppeteer I believe was added in 8.0 and not a new addition to 8.5 at all so in that regard (though I could be wrong) it wouldn't have inhibited any fixes or changes or create any bugs etc to 8.5 due to being something new. Looking it seems to me in 8.5 what was enhanced was more of the features you personally would use and were looking for which was the core animation tools that were a part of Carrara (I'll double check that though...as I said I could be incorrect) I tend to do most of my animating in other apps outside of Carrara and DS personally so I am not as versed in what was there and what is new.
Exactly :) Thanks so much for taking the time to better explain what I meant and in far less words :)
Absolutely -and even Maya and 3DS Max!
Puppeteer is easily ignored if you don't want to use it - they've placed it in a tab all its own.
Besides - Puppeteer came in 8, not 8.5
It seems to me there should have been some updates to bugs from 8 without the new features and content. The FBX and .x imports have never worked properly and it seems to me if you sell a defective product you fix it before asking for more money.
Good point Dart! And I believe that somebody mentioned before that it was a requested feature.
What I was saying was that this is a matter of opinion. How each person feels about, can utilize, or find use for a specific tool. While in your opinion it only caters to those who don't want to take the time to "really" animate, that is a matter of opinion based on what you feel is "real animation" what your personal goals are, what other apps you may own, (the list could go on) While something such as puppeteer may not be useful to you or you may feel it can be used as a crutch, I have seen others use it professionally for promotional work etc without any of the issues or drawbacks you outline. How well it is used comes down to the user themselves, the experience they have, the time they wish to take on it, and what they are using it for. DAZ3D themselves have done some very nicely done animations using puppeteer along with other tools. In the end it is just that a tool. You can choose not to use a tool if it isn't what you are looking for (heavens knows there are quite a few I don't use in various apps as they don't suit my pipeline LOL)
I can understand from you perspective that by focusing on puppeteer and adding it it may have detracted from something you would have wanted or could possibly create new bugs or issues where they may have been none but that would be the potential risks with adding new features to any app at any time whether it be the addition of things like the Improved Sequencer, Keyframing and Animation Tools (which I would assume would be of use to you possibly?) to the new subD and smoothing tools etc. To avoid the addition of new things would be to stop the progress of any application. I realize you feel in this specific instance that puppeteer isn't a progress but with any app new additions will be not be useful to some while extremely useful to others. If we stopped adding things because someone said it wasn't useful *we being in the general sense of the term in regard to anyone creating any software* no software would ever progress nor would things you do find personally beneficial be added. They would be released and then nothing new ever added.
Of additional note, I think someone previously may be correct, puppeteer I believe was added in 8.0 and not a new addition to 8.5 at all so in that regard (though I could be wrong) it wouldn't have inhibited any fixes or changes or create any bugs etc to 8.5 due to being something new. Looking it seems to me in 8.5 what was enhanced was more of the features you personally would use and were looking for which was the core animation tools that were a part of Carrara (I'll double check that though...as I said I could be incorrect) I tend to do most of my animating in other apps outside of Carrara and DS personally so I am not as versed in what was there and what is new.
What I stated with my claims are not opinion either. I'm speaking from direct experience and from working directly with others in a brick and mortar educational facility where a little extra studying, reading, and working together is required to figure out and learn new tools and interface in a new program. It was a bit of a learning curve, but In the end we all learned something valuable and were grateful for that. Quoting me as my explanations based only opinions and feelings is plain insulting considering I've been doing this for 10 years now. I don't want to start an argument either, but I can't stand it when anyone makes false accusations and assumptions about me, especially when they haven't taken into consideration the history and experience I've been through.
Please take "feelings" and "opinion" out of the equation when it comes to someone speaking from a decade or more experience. It's just not accurate or even polite to label someone with feelings and opinions like that. Plus it goes against the tos when in fact it's directed toward a personal "feeling" or "belief" instead of discussing the topic at hand. As soon as the words feelings and opinions come in, then it starts to get personal. Let's try and stay away from that. Thank you.