I want V4 Products not V5 or V6. Planned Obsolescence Has To Stop.

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Comments

  • icprncssicprncss Posts: 3,665
    edited December 1969

    DAZ created the DSON importer for Poser in an attempt to give Poser users a way to use Genesis and now the second iteration of Genesis.

    For some it works well, for others it does not. Some do not find it a disruption in workflow. others do. It's a personal choice.

    The updates to python in Poser began with version 8. There was another update with version 9. P10/Pro 2014 use the same python version as P9/Pro 2012.

    Most uncompiled python scripts that worked in P7 and below still work in the current versions. Vendors like PhilC, Netherworks and Shaderworks recompiled and udated their scipts for the newer versions. Since you can keep multiple versions of Poser on your system without a problem, you can easily have P7 and a higher version that uses the DSON importer without a problem.

    Both DS and Poser have legacy compatibility so versatility is not lost. I won't say that some of the changes between DS 4.5 and 4.6 with the introduction of the .duf files don't make legacy compatibility in DS a bit more challenging but it is there. Poser is a bit easier because there have been no file changes between P4 and the current versions.

  • VaskaniaVaskania Posts: 5,999
    edited June 2014

    robkelk said:
    direwrath2000, I read your last few posts and while I can understand your frustration, it seems like you "want" to be stuck with the old tech, the familiar, like many others. Me personally, I go with what makes my work flow the most efficient with the best results.

    It must be nice to have that much money to spend on this hobby.
    With products like V4/M4 for G2F/G2M, GenX2, autofit, and the like, you don't need to spend as much anymore because you can just convert your older stuff to work with the new figures if you use them.

    Some items may take a bit of hacking and adjustment to look right, but unless you're doing animation it should be perfectly fine.

    Mind you I primarily use Gen4 and Dawn, leaving Genesis for beasties, etc and G2F for OOT's Fiends, GenX2, and mixing/matching.

    Post edited by Vaskania on
  • FSMCDesignsFSMCDesigns Posts: 9,312
    edited December 1969

    direwrath2000, see that is where we are different, i have a clear path to where i want to go and try to take in as much info as possible and also by experimentation to see what works the best. I am not allowing what is released to dictate what I can do and what I can't. it;s all mesh afterall. As far as genesis being supported, as long as it is in my runtime and new outfits can be made to work, then it is being supported, in my mind, LOL. It's funny when i see a post about "will this hair work on..." most hair works on any figure, just need to think outside the box. To many in this community become slaves to the plug and play mentality it seems, meaning if the click of a file icon doesn't work, they are lost and DIM and smart content are not making it any better.

    As for the autofitting issue, I like more fitted outfits and these tend to work well depending on the character morphs, there are usually small issues, but there are as well with the intended figure with extreme morphs, so i don't expect perfection and I can usually fix something that is really out of whack.

  • GigabeatGigabeat Posts: 164
    edited December 1969

    Vaskania said:
    [ With products like V4/M4 for G2F/G2M, GenX2, autofit, and the like, you don't need to spend as much anymore because you can just convert your older stuff to work with the new figures if you use them.

    Some items may take a bit of hacking and adjustment to look right, but unless you're doing animation it should be perfectly fine.

    Mind you I primarily use Gen4 and Dawn, leaving Genesis for beasties, etc and G2F for OOT's Fiends, GenX2, and mixing/matching.

    Autofit fails at converting shoes from Gen4 figure to Gen5 (I don't suppoprt Gen6). Results are terrible. :smirk:

  • VaskaniaVaskania Posts: 5,999
    edited June 2014

    GigaBeat said:
    Vaskania said:
    [ With products like V4/M4 for G2F/G2M, GenX2, autofit, and the like, you don't need to spend as much anymore because you can just convert your older stuff to work with the new figures if you use them.

    Some items may take a bit of hacking and adjustment to look right, but unless you're doing animation it should be perfectly fine.

    Mind you I primarily use Gen4 and Dawn, leaving Genesis for beasties, etc and G2F for OOT's Fiends, GenX2, and mixing/matching.

    Autofit fails at converting shoes from Gen4 figure to Gen5 (I don't suppoprt Gen6). Results are terrible. :smirk:
    Agreed. Give this a go: http://www.daz3d.com/sickle-rigging-and-morphing-system
    Results may vary, but it's a hell of a lot better than the default conversion.

    *hint- read the manual with this sucker. Flying blind with it will result in horrible, horrible mishaps. lol

    If autofitting regular clothing those is satisfactory to you though, it's still cheaper to buy Genesis shoe packs and just use V4/M4 clothing.

    Post edited by Vaskania on
  • Male-M3diaMale-M3dia Posts: 3,547
    edited December 1969

    Depends on the outfit, but flat shoes convert better than those with heels. Also posing m4/v4 into the same foot position as genesis, exporting and reimporting the obj and using transfer tool has better results if you want to salvage shoes. I've been able to salvage a good chunk of my M4 shoes by the pose/export method.

    The image below was converted with slosh's M4 clone for G2M though.

    M4CloneTest03.jpg
    1000 x 1300 - 296K
  • GigabeatGigabeat Posts: 164
    edited December 1969

    Depends on the outfit, but flat shoes convert better than those with heels. Also posing m4/v4 into the same foot position as genesis, exporting and reimporting the obj and using transfer tool has better results if you want to salvage shoes. I've been able to salvage a good chunk of my M4 shoes by the pose/export method.

    The image below was converted with slosh's M4 clone for G2M though.

    Excellent work. The shoe buttons look great, can't see any distortions.:gulp:

  • DirewrathDirewrath Posts: 224
    edited December 1969

    direwrath2000, see that is where we are different, i have a clear path to where i want to go and try to take in as much info as possible and also by experimentation to see what works the best. I am not allowing what is released to dictate what I can do and what I can't. it;s all mesh afterall. As far as genesis being supported, as long as it is in my runtime and new outfits can be made to work, then it is being supported, in my mind, LOL. It's funny when i see a post about "will this hair work on..." most hair works on any figure, just need to think outside the box. To many in this community become slaves to the plug and play mentality it seems, meaning if the click of a file icon doesn't work, they are lost and DIM and smart content are not making it any better.

    As for the autofitting issue, I like more fitted outfits and these tend to work well depending on the character morphs, there are usually small issues, but there are as well with the intended figure with extreme morphs, so i don't expect perfection and I can usually fix something that is really out of whack.

    Sounds something like what CrossDresser would come up with. Some outfits fit great and there were some that had to be tweaked for a good fit.

    I'm not necessarily stuck with push button fixes, I've been known to use magnets to give my figures better anatomical features because no matter what figure I use the muscles never look right to me. I use them to fix non dynamic clothes to give them a more realistic wrinkle in the cloth, and of course to fit clothes when all else fails. ;) I'm also a postwork fiend, I love working with paint programs. So a figure's faults for me are more of a challenge then anything.
    Thus I'm not looking for perfection out of the box, unless they figure out a way to make muscles move as they should, I am okay that; that will never happen. Nor am I worried about render times, or lagging, or my computer slowing because of a figure's mesh. I typically run both programs at the same time.
    I am just looking for a better transition between figure a and figure b. That is not what was given at all and that is the reason I am bitter.

    As far as my intentions, I am at a crossroads and probably will not be moving for some time. I do not make money off of this hobby, it is merely something that allows me to push my imagination out without having to sit at a table and sketch for hours. Such is time that I do not have.
    Money wise I have one of two choices, either I spend my money on whittling down my M4/V4 wishlists, or I spend it on a new figure or program.

    Gen 4 still works in both programs that I have at my disposal, also I have thousands of characters and clothing for them both. To spend a hefty sum on one figure just to use the thousands of products I already own isn't something I will forgo my wishlists for as of yet, nor do I wish to spend a hefty sum on a program that it seems may not work with them or Genesis either.
    But this is my choice, and mine alone.

    I'm not blaming either program for my choices, I'm just saying that their focus is off by quite a bit.
    ;)

  • Herald of FireHerald of Fire Posts: 3,490
    edited December 1969

    Gen 4 still works in both programs that I have at my disposal, also I have thousands of characters and clothing for them both. To spend a hefty sum on one figure just to use the thousands of products I already own isn't something I will forgo my wishlists for as of yet, nor do I wish to spend a hefty sum on a program that it seems may not work with them or Genesis either.
    You're in good company at least. There are plenty of others who share your sentiments about Generation 4. One thing to consider however is that Genesis and Genesis 2 offer huge benefits from a new customer's perspective.

    Consider V4 and M4. If I want to take an outfit designed for one and put it on the other, I need to purchase CrossDresser and the respective licences for them. I then need to spend a few minutes setting up the conversion and output an entirely different figure to use on my Gen4.

    If I want to reshape Victoria with a bit more Aiko in her, I need to apply a dozen morphs to make the clothing fit snugly, or magnets in other cases. Poser's fitting room does a serviceable job, but even that is far from perfect and requires some manual work.

    Now consider Genesis. I purchase the figure and now I can use any outfit on either gender. Young or old, male or female. Even zombies, trolls and troglodytes can all use the same wardrobe. The amount you've saved simply by not having to do any conversions is already staggering. That's before you factor in the backwards compatibility with older products and the cross-compatibility for skins!

    As much as I love Generation 4 (I still use K4!), the new tech is simply better at doing its job in a user-friendlier, wallet-friendlier way. You don't even need to purchase the base figures as they're free with the program. You just buy the content you want to use with them, and can do so safe in the knowledge that everything works with pretty much every shape you can dream up. That alone gives Genesis' popularity some credence.

    With Genesis 2 being a hybrid of what was good about V4 (higher detail) combined with what's good about Genesis (flexibility), it's not hard to see why it's turning heads even on sites which had largely shunned Genesis.

  • Male-M3diaMale-M3dia Posts: 3,547
    edited June 2014

    [

    With Genesis 2 being a hybrid of what was good about V4 (higher detail) combined with what's good about Genesis (flexibility), it's not hard to see why it's turning heads even on sites which had largely shunned Genesis.

    I think it's more of a female actually looking female or a male looking like a male, ease of creating clothing for the gender shapes with the genesis tech of being anything a vendor wishes the figure to be is what is turning the heads. I've heard from quite a few vendors that jumped on Genesis 2 but shunned the first one was that they did not like the look and it was hard to create for Genesis, but loved Genesis 2 out of the box. And you can see that difference in the types of clothing that are made. Is there always going to be less clothing for the men? Yes because female content drives the sales, but it is at least lot easier to pull male clothing from other figures because it's a lot easier to rig with Genesis than with gen 4.

    I think a lot of the concern was due to the fact that a lot of people got on board with genesis at about the two year mark at the end of the tech cycle and felt like it could have been longer. I think waiting too long to adopt something may not be the best solution either. I think the adoption rate for Genesis was not at the optimum that they had to incorporate the new tech, feature and design of the next generation, also the fact I think they burned through all the major figures at that time. Genesis 2 has a much higher adoption rate, so you're see Genesis 2 content pop up on other sites as well.

    Should you do another "wait and see" on the tech? Probably not. Tech changes a lot quicker than anything else. I read a post earlier where someone said they don't buy appliances every few years... yes but software tech is not basic appliances. You can pick and choose from multiple refrigerators because they generally do the same thing year after year. You just decide on the size and space of it so it can hold your food, then you forget about it until it breaks or you remodel your kitchen. However computer technology does change... no one walks around with their same cell phone because the features changed so much due to the tech. The first phone you had to clip to your belt because it was so big; now you can slip it into your pocket and take it out make selfies because of the tech to take photos and post it to the internet ... and that is because of the tech to allow it access wireless networks that put in faster connection speeds.

    DAZ is no different, people wanted better bending, better looking figures, clothing that generally fits custom character and shapes, etc. that they couldn't get with their current figures. To stay on top of tech, the figures have to stay innovative, but at least the tech is in the platform so you can get clothing to convert, but if you have to manually convert, the rigging tools still are done from drop down boxes. Not everyone will immediately convert to the next tech because of their needs (I held out buying another phone from having my iphone 3 and went to 6 when the battery almost exploded but i use my phone to access the internet rather than call so i didn't need to switch), but then that why the companies should have a large enough customer base that is eager to have the latest advances for their art work like any other hobbyist in any other field. It all depends on what the customer finds important for their money.

    Post edited by Male-M3dia on
  • robkelkrobkelk Posts: 3,259
    edited December 1969

    ...
    Should you do another "wait and see" on the tech? Probably not. Tech changes a lot quicker than anything else. I read a post earlier where someone said they don't buy appliances every few years... yes but software tech is not basic appliances. You can pick and choose from multiple refrigerators because they generally do the same thing year after year. You just decide on the size and space of it so it can hold your food, then you forget about it until it breaks or you remodel your kitchen. However computer technology does change... no one walks around with their same cell phone because the features changed so much due to the tech. The first phone you had to clip to your belt because it was so big; now you can slip it into your pocket and take it out make selfies because of the tech to take photos and post it to the internet ... and that is because of the tech to allow it access wireless networks that put in faster connection speeds.

    DAZ is no different, people wanted better bending, better looking figures, clothing that generally fits custom character and shapes, etc. that they couldn't get with their current figures. To stay on top of tech, the figures have to stay innovative, but at least the tech is in the platform so you can get clothing to convert, but if you have to manually convert, the rigging tools still are done from drop down boxes. Not everyone will immediately convert to the next tech because of their needs (I held out buying another phone from having my iphone 3 and went to 6 when the battery almost exploded but i use my phone to access the internet rather than call so i didn't need to switch), but then that why the companies should have a large enough customer base that is eager to have the latest advances for their art work like any other hobbyist in any other field. It all depends on what the customer finds important for their money.


    I was the one who made the comment about not replacing appliances every few years.

    I see your argument, and I think it's (a) an excellent description of Attention Deficit Disorder, and (b) everything I consider to be wrong with the modern software industry. Obviously, you disagree with me on the second point.

    Since we're all re-stating positions, I'm dropping out of this discussion.

  • Male-M3diaMale-M3dia Posts: 3,547
    edited December 1969

    robkelk said:
    ...
    Should you do another "wait and see" on the tech? Probably not. Tech changes a lot quicker than anything else. I read a post earlier where someone said they don't buy appliances every few years... yes but software tech is not basic appliances. You can pick and choose from multiple refrigerators because they generally do the same thing year after year. You just decide on the size and space of it so it can hold your food, then you forget about it until it breaks or you remodel your kitchen. However computer technology does change... no one walks around with their same cell phone because the features changed so much due to the tech. The first phone you had to clip to your belt because it was so big; now you can slip it into your pocket and take it out make selfies because of the tech to take photos and post it to the internet ... and that is because of the tech to allow it access wireless networks that put in faster connection speeds.

    DAZ is no different, people wanted better bending, better looking figures, clothing that generally fits custom character and shapes, etc. that they couldn't get with their current figures. To stay on top of tech, the figures have to stay innovative, but at least the tech is in the platform so you can get clothing to convert, but if you have to manually convert, the rigging tools still are done from drop down boxes. Not everyone will immediately convert to the next tech because of their needs (I held out buying another phone from having my iphone 3 and went to 6 when the battery almost exploded but i use my phone to access the internet rather than call so i didn't need to switch), but then that why the companies should have a large enough customer base that is eager to have the latest advances for their art work like any other hobbyist in any other field. It all depends on what the customer finds important for their money.


    I was the one who made the comment about not replacing appliances every few years.

    I see your argument, and I think it's (a) an excellent description of Attention Deficit Disorder, and (b) everything I consider to be wrong with the modern software industry. Obviously, you disagree with me on the second point.

    Since we're all re-stating positions, I'm dropping out of this discussion.

    This is kind of why this thread originally died months ago. Nothing has really changed, and more content for the named figure had made it to the store. There should be rules about restarting necro'd threads, unless it's a question about a method stated within (like someone's having an issue with a product and wants to see if it was resolved).

  • TimbalesTimbales Posts: 1,652
    edited December 1969

    Fauvist said:
    I have a ton of morphs and poses and clothes and hair and textures for Victoria 4 - that I can't use on V6. I want to be able to use the stuff I already have, and I want new content for V4 to go with it.

    The V6 content that was put on sale today are things I really want - but there's no way I'm buy it when I have so much invested in V4. It's a real shame.

    If DAZ wants to add thousands of polygons to Victoria's face, they don't need to make a whole new figure. They can make a mask of a face that will fit V4 - a mask of a face with the thousands of new polygons. Then the thousands of people who have V4 can simply fit the mask over V4's face, make V4's face invisible, and use the new face possibilities. If a new face mask isn't possible, then just make a new head, so we can make V4's head invisible and parent the new head to V4's neck. I know absolutely that that will work because I use third generation heads of both male and female figures on fourth generation figures by making the third generation body invisible and parenting the head to the fourth generation neck - and making the 4th generation head invisible.

    Similarly, all the other changes to Victoria could be incorporated into V4.

    Any content artists reading this could make a LOT of money by modeling a high-polygon facemask with infinite expression-pose possibilities, and infinite character morph possibilities - a face mask to fit on V4 and V3 and the male figures.

    This constant rebuying has to stop. DAZ's planned obsolescence has to stop. Enough is enough.

    I know this thread is 25 pages in, but I understand what you are saying and here's my response:

    Published artists are artists, they are inspired to make the items they because they are artists. They are going to make what they want to make.

    I think Daz is always trying to improve figure features and options for the better. Sometimes I like what they have done, sometimes I don't.

    If you have a a lot of things for V4 that you love and want to keep buying more stuff for a V4 shape, I'd suggest getting the utilities to use Genesis instead of V4.

    http://www.daz3d.com/genesis-generation-x2
    http://www.daz3d.com/clothing-cleavage-modifier
    http://www.daz3d.com/genesis-2-female-clone-for-genesis

    You can use all of her skins you already have. You can port your characters over. You can use all of the V4 clothes and hair you have, plus anything made for Genesis. Get the G2F clone for Genesis and you can use all G2F clothes on a V4 styled figure. It's the best of all worlds.

  • DirewrathDirewrath Posts: 224
    edited December 1969

    robkelk said:
    ...
    Should you do another "wait and see" on the tech? Probably not. Tech changes a lot quicker than anything else. I read a post earlier where someone said they don't buy appliances every few years... yes but software tech is not basic appliances. You can pick and choose from multiple refrigerators because they generally do the same thing year after year. You just decide on the size and space of it so it can hold your food, then you forget about it until it breaks or you remodel your kitchen. However computer technology does change... no one walks around with their same cell phone because the features changed so much due to the tech. The first phone you had to clip to your belt because it was so big; now you can slip it into your pocket and take it out make selfies because of the tech to take photos and post it to the internet ... and that is because of the tech to allow it access wireless networks that put in faster connection speeds.

    DAZ is no different, people wanted better bending, better looking figures, clothing that generally fits custom character and shapes, etc. that they couldn't get with their current figures. To stay on top of tech, the figures have to stay innovative, but at least the tech is in the platform so you can get clothing to convert, but if you have to manually convert, the rigging tools still are done from drop down boxes. Not everyone will immediately convert to the next tech because of their needs (I held out buying another phone from having my iphone 3 and went to 6 when the battery almost exploded but i use my phone to access the internet rather than call so i didn't need to switch), but then that why the companies should have a large enough customer base that is eager to have the latest advances for their art work like any other hobbyist in any other field. It all depends on what the customer finds important for their money.


    I was the one who made the comment about not replacing appliances every few years.

    I see your argument, and I think it's (a) an excellent description of Attention Deficit Disorder, and (b) everything I consider to be wrong with the modern software industry. Obviously, you disagree with me on the second point.

    Since we're all re-stating positions, I'm dropping out of this discussion.

    This is kind of why this thread originally died months ago. Nothing has really changed, and more content for the named figure had made it to the store. There should be rules about restarting necro'd threads, unless it's a question about a method stated within (like someone's having an issue with a product and wants to see if it was resolved).

    This is an issue that is not going to go away, there are going to be others with the same frustrations, it is much easier to discuss things in an already open thread then starting yet another thread just to clutter up the forums with the same discussion. Eventually the mods will lock the thread, obviously they do not feel the need to do so just yet. Maybe it is because we are having an actual discussion about this instead of a negative one.

    I don't know, but I feel this may be helpful to some in the community. I know I have learned some things from this thread and although I am kind of sitting this new figure out for a bit I am aware of things that will help when I do decide to move forward.
    :)

    As far as skins being converted between figures, I may be a detail nut but facial skins tend to be stretched over the genesis figure and that can ruin a facial structure. This is why I hope that Genesis 2 converts better with Gen 4 skins then the original figure does. If I have to postwork just to get a face skin to look right with the conversion then it is all the same to me.

    I don't argue that Genesis or Gen 2 are decent figures but the ease of converting can be just as hard to do with them as it was with other figures. It probably has to do with the product being converted, but it is still an issue.

  • Male-M3diaMale-M3dia Posts: 3,547
    edited June 2014

    robkelk said:
    ...
    Should you do another "wait and see" on the tech? Probably not. Tech changes a lot quicker than anything else. I read a post earlier where someone said they don't buy appliances every few years... yes but software tech is not basic appliances. You can pick and choose from multiple refrigerators because they generally do the same thing year after year. You just decide on the size and space of it so it can hold your food, then you forget about it until it breaks or you remodel your kitchen. However computer technology does change... no one walks around with their same cell phone because the features changed so much due to the tech. The first phone you had to clip to your belt because it was so big; now you can slip it into your pocket and take it out make selfies because of the tech to take photos and post it to the internet ... and that is because of the tech to allow it access wireless networks that put in faster connection speeds.

    DAZ is no different, people wanted better bending, better looking figures, clothing that generally fits custom character and shapes, etc. that they couldn't get with their current figures. To stay on top of tech, the figures have to stay innovative, but at least the tech is in the platform so you can get clothing to convert, but if you have to manually convert, the rigging tools still are done from drop down boxes. Not everyone will immediately convert to the next tech because of their needs (I held out buying another phone from having my iphone 3 and went to 6 when the battery almost exploded but i use my phone to access the internet rather than call so i didn't need to switch), but then that why the companies should have a large enough customer base that is eager to have the latest advances for their art work like any other hobbyist in any other field. It all depends on what the customer finds important for their money.


    I was the one who made the comment about not replacing appliances every few years.

    I see your argument, and I think it's (a) an excellent description of Attention Deficit Disorder, and (b) everything I consider to be wrong with the modern software industry. Obviously, you disagree with me on the second point.

    Since we're all re-stating positions, I'm dropping out of this discussion.

    This is kind of why this thread originally died months ago. Nothing has really changed, and more content for the named figure had made it to the store. There should be rules about restarting necro'd threads, unless it's a question about a method stated within (like someone's having an issue with a product and wants to see if it was resolved).

    This is an issue that is not going to go away, there are going to be others with the same frustrations, it is much easier to discuss things in an already open thread then starting yet another thread just to clutter up the forums with the same discussion. Eventually the mods will lock the thread, obviously they do not feel the need to do so just yet. Maybe it is because we are having an actual discussion about this instead of a negative one.

    True about it's a subject that may turn up; unfortunately this seems most likely an issue for some, but not for the masses that shop at DAZ. I say that because I and other PAs have had increased sales with Genesis 2 over Genesis 1, which means someone is buying the new stuff. And looking at the store, it's what you mostly see. Then you see products starting to emerge in others stores as well. And it's been noted that forums is really a small part of the buying customers. It doesn't make your situation less significant, but it does put things in perspective. And I know sometimes it's good to vent: I know when Nvida bought 3dfx all those years ago and immediately discontinued support for a video card I bought 3 months prior for $500, I said I was never going to support NVidia because of it. But then it's the nature of the whole software/tech thing and I got over it and realized things are not going to go my way all the time... and now my computers use Nvidia cards now, and I apply that thinking to all my purchases now.

    Post edited by Male-M3dia on
  • frank0314frank0314 Posts: 10,821
    edited December 1969

    Since the discussion is just repeating itself and not offering anything new, the thread is now being locked.

This discussion has been closed.