When will DAZ have realistic skins?
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When it comes to realism, there are far more things to consider then just skin. 3D renders in general are too clean and symetrical. There are imperfections and minute details that we dont remember to reproduce when doing 3D art.
All skin maps start off the same way normally and that is a photo of a real persons skin and that in itself is a problem right away. The skin, when the picture is taken is already doing what skin does when light hits it. The picture captures all the effects and then we take it into a 3D program and tell the program to make it do what is already going on in the image. To add to the problem, the models have no real thinkness like a human body does. While there are SSS maps, they are not true representatives of tissue density in the human body.
Now, even if you had the perfect skin map for your character and related bump maps and it looked 100% real for skin, there are far more things to consider that will give the image away as being unreal. The figure pose! There is a great deal of subtle movement that we see with our eyes and it registers subconciously, especially with expressions, yet when we do a 3D image, we do not recreate or cannot recreate those same subtleties. When we see something human in appearence that does not move or twitch like a human, it triggers in our minds right away and we know its not real. Also, not everyone remembers to pose the eyes. Not every 3D program has softbody collison. Hand poses are usally the hardest part of the body to pose too and on top of all that, the 3D figure you are using, if its not able to bend and move like a real human will limit you on recreating prefection.
But even if you had all that too, hair is another give away that its not real. Modeled hair is very obvious. While we have the ability to recreate more relistic hair, the end user still has to take all the time to try and mimic how real hair moves and flows in the image if they want that extra touch of realism.
On top of all that, lighting is probably going to be the biggest challenge to get right. Even if your render engine can do indirect lighting and give very realistic results, the end user still has to learn how to light their scene. Lighting is a whole can of worms unto itself.
Then there is clothing. Does it float on your character? Is it dynamic? Problem with dynamic cloth normally is that its only as thick a a polygon which is not very think. Some clothing puts presure on the human body so again, if you lack softbody collision or you dont know how to use magnets/d-formers you'll loose that touch or realism there.
So there is great deal of information that needs to be considered when trying to create realism in an image.
When you make a render, some skins look better than other skins. Some skins look more real because when the artist was putting the package together, they took time to make it and they poured their heart and souls into making a great product.
The technology is such that we are essentially taking real photos and bending them, stretching them over a canvas. When I look at certain textures, I see that some artist take a photo sample and basically just repeat the same tiny sample until the entire body is covered... all the skin is the same color.
As we look at 3d textures... and that is what skins are.. we see that photo realism isn't a problem. People like Stonemasons are making photo-realistic objects daily. So... we have the technology but what we are looking at is artist being lazy and instead of doing realistic, time consuming "Hollywood" quality textures of real people from head to toe, its obvious they take shortcuts. The same skin that covers the forehead is the same skin on the bumm... So we don't see any lines or contours... in those short cuts, they might paint a mole here and a freckle there but it is the same skin sample.. no major color variations.
Some of the better textures on Daz have added variations on the face colors... they focus all their energy on that one aspect.. the rest of the model is then factory stamped with a 'seemless texture' and bam... out the door. Face looks great and the body is all one texture.. In the photo I'm rendering this moment with Daz3d, I'm using Stonemasons, "Walled City" with Dimension lighting and the only thing that looks fake is the "Candace" skin on Genesis 2. So now the the 'excuse' is that I need to do something else rather then except that only a few real "ARTIST" can make realistic skins and its hard work.
Now somebody comes along who knows better because he's seen better and I see that people want to make excuses as to why it is so rare that really good, high quality skins are hard to find... especially for female characters on Daz3D.
Again... skin colors vary... Skin on top of your fingers looks a different color from the skin on the bottom, and the bottom has a different texture because it has prints and the top might have lines for knuckles and joins. Skin at the top of your knuckles is a different color from the skin that surrounds it. Don't even get me started on veins..
So... stop excuses as to why DAZ3D characters are flat and lack color variations and start putting people on it that will take the time to use more reference points when they make the skins.
I stand by the fact that DAZ3D needs better looking skins for the Genesis 2 product. To me, the bottom line is
This is an example of Candace. Why does everything except the skin look real? Cartoon skins
Snowpheonix,
Please define your interpetation of Realism.
ps, how does her skin look to you? - http://mattymanx.deviantart.com/art/Salome-3-327695652
This is nothing against you, just a way to show how different peoples opinion are on what is realistic to them. So please don't take it the wrong way.
I personally don't find the woman in that render to look realistic, but as I said. Peoples opinion on what is realistic for them, differs between person to person. You like that which is great for you, for me I would never use a skin that came out that way. I'm sure there is good pores and such on it, but if it comes out the way it does in that render, I would simply not use it at all. I'm also going to add that it isn't only the skin that doesn't fit into my view of realistic but that is a different subject *smiles*
I actually think you are right but I also think that the previous render is about as realistic as I can expect from DAZ Studio 4.5. I know Poser does a hell of a lot more realistic but I to me it feels bogged down with being overly complex. I'm certain that something better will come out but so far, the characters being introduced in the V6 line up are just the type of skins you probably love.. featureless models that looks like they are either cartoons are caked in Tammy Faye Baker type makeup so that you don't see the story that a skin tells.
I'm currently looking at Elle and Connie and by the promo renders alone, I wouldn't touch those skins until they go on quicksale. Connie is just horrible.. really puts the U in UGLY.
Snowphoenix, I have already said earlier that I do not like the cartoon like ones, and after doing a search on Tammy Faye Baker I must say I am feeling insulted by your comment of me loving the kind of look that much make up gives. It's clear that we do not share the same view of what is realistic but that is no reason to make it sound like you know what I love as you are so far from the truth it's not even funny. You simply do not know me enough to know my views on things like this so just please stop making claims like the above one.
Skin wise I'd say pretty damn realistic. Unfortunately the eyes miss the mark on that one and eyes I think can be the most important thing.. For some reason I find myself using Danae3d's eyes in every render that I make.
Sorry but she ruined me for the rest of you.
This is nothing against you, just a way to show how different peoples opinion are on what is realistic to them. So please don't take it the wrong way.
I personally don't find the woman in that render to look realistic, but as I said. Peoples opinion on what is realistic for them, differs between person to person. You like that which is great for you, for me I would never use a skin that came out that way. I'm sure there is good pores and such on it, but if it comes out the way it does in that render, I would simply not use it at all. I'm also going to add that it isn't only the skin that doesn't fit into my view of realistic but that is a different subject *smiles*
I actually think you are right but I also think that the previous render is about as realistic as I can expect from DAZ Studio 4.5. I know Poser does a hell of a lot more realistic but I to me it feels bogged down with being overly complex. I'm certain that something better will come out but so far, the characters being introduced in the V6 line up are just the type of skins you probably love.. featureless models that looks like they are either cartoons are caked in Tammy Faye Baker type makeup so that you don't see the story that a skin tells.
I'm currently looking at Elle and Connie and by the promo renders alone, I wouldn't touch those skins until they go on quicksale. Connie is just horrible.. really puts the U in UGLY.
Snowphoenix, I have already said earlier that I do not like the cartoon like ones, and after doing a search on Tammy Faye Baker I must say I am feeling insulted by your comment of me loving the kind of look that much make up gives. It's clear that we do not share the same view of what is realistic but that is no reason to make it sound like you know what I love as you are so far from the truth it's not even funny. You simply do not know me enough to know my views on things like this so just please stop making claims like the above one.
Why should you be insulted if what I'm talking about are the butt ugly models being sold on DAZ3d? I'm mean seriously... Did you get a look at Connie for V6? Is anybody going to tell me that fugly thing looks real? What kind of garbage are they pushing?
I'm not talking about you ... I'm talking about the products.
I understand you prefer the ones that don't have heavy details, we disagree. Outside of that, I'm sorry if there is a misunderstanding.
And again you are wrong, I do want details.. so bloody STOP assuming things about me will you? That part of your earlier comment that I have made bold and marked red, was not directed to the mdoels themselves, the way you phrased that made it directed to me.. and that was the part I was referring to.
Once again we need to ask that you abide by the DAZ 3D TOS, in particular bullet point #2 in the General Code of Conduct.
Even if you cannot find a G2F skin that suits your needs just yet, after all, G2F is new, you can use your favorite V4 skin maps with G2F using this addon - http://www.daz3d.com/victoria-4-for-genesis-2-female
ps, the render posted above was rendered in Lux Render.
Interesting comparison. The middle one looks like the best skin even if it is featureless and bland... no tan lines, no real texture to the skin but the third picture has the best hair.. it looks like you can see depth. I've had some mixed results with Lux render myself... where textures look entirely different from the starting look... on the other hand I've seen some of my favorite renders come from that line too.
From my perspective, the fault can only be that the skin lacks realistic texture... Nobodies skin is a single color.. it is far more complex then what we are currently seeing in my opinion.
Sometimes, we spend so long in computer world, we forget what the real thing looks like.
Again, the point of those images was to show the effects of lighting on a render, towards realism. That texture is actually very detailed but because I didn't spend any time altering the settings, you won't see much of it, especially in the lux render. Its default settings are already set for 3delight, so the middle image with lantios lights definitely makes the skin look its best of those 3 pictures, but because its not realistic light like lux it still doesnt look great. Considerable time spent working with it for Lux would produce dramatic results.
here's an unlit image of the skin close up. I think its quite nice, actually, with variations in pigmentation and blemishes.
in the end, I don't think we'll see greater realism than this because the methods of using 2d images UV mapped to a figure, plus SSS and bump etc are simply not simulating reality, they are approximating it. It would be like the difference between using virtual approximations, as we currently do, in "The Sims," and making actual virtual DNA that literally simulates humanity. And I think the technology for making truly virtual skin etc is a long ways off.
We also have a double edged sword in play; morphable figures. Because we cna turn genesis 1 into a man, a woman, a child, a toon, an elephant guy, a troll etc, even being able to dial noses, ears and eye shapes, we will always be warping and distorting a texture map made to be a blanket texture for all purposes. The very best of hollywood's attempts at simulating people, despite still being unable to climb out of the uncanny valley, requires individual figures built for each character. For daz and their customers, that would be too costly and impractical.
Agreed and I feel that among some of daz's products, there is a culture of perfection, particularly among the female skins. Some are made to be so blemishless and uniform that the figure resembles a mannequin more than a person. In the end, its a matter of taste and of the purpose of your final renders. I personally tend towards realism when I make purchases but obviously not everyone does.
I will say this, as my personal opinion; I want to see DAZ take greater steps towards realism in their next generation (G7) both in figure design and approach, and in the standards to which they hold PAs. I look at the works of Stonemason, for example, and know that few can touch his attention to detail and hyper realistic approach. I wish DAZ would make standards for all products at that level. For figures, to that end, I strongly suggest finally cutting ties with v/m 4 . Its time to break free of having to make new figures work with old products; it is hampering progress. Hair, as well, needs to take a leap forward. Many of us own garibaldi and/or LAMH but now we need preset products for them, as not everyone wants or is capable of hand-modelling hairstyles. We're off to a good start and we all enjoy this or we wouldnt be here, but I for one want to see a giant leap forward in all areas -and so far genesis 2 is just not it. I look forward to g3.
Agreed and I feel that among some of daz's products, there is a culture of perfection, particularly among the female skins. Some are made to be so blemishless and uniform that the figure resembles a mannequin more than a person. In the end, its a matter of taste and of the purpose of your final renders. I personally tend towards realism when I make purchases but obviously not everyone does.
I will say this, as my personal opinion; I want to see DAZ take greater steps towards realism in their next generation (G7) both in figure design and approach, and in the standards to which they hold PAs. I look at the works of Stonemason, for example, and know that few can touch his attention to detail and hyper realistic approach. I wish DAZ would make standards for all products at that level. For figures, to that end, I strongly suggest finally cutting ties with v/m 4 . Its time to break free of having to make new figures work with old products; it is hampering progress. Hair, as well, needs to take a leap forward. Many of us own garibaldi and/or LAMH but now we need preset products for them, as not everyone wants or is capable of hand-modelling hairstyles. We're off to a good start and we all enjoy this or we wouldnt be here, but I for one want to see a giant leap forward in all areas -and so far genesis 2 is just not it. I look forward to g3.
AMEN, I agree with you on every detail ... but... let's give Genesis 2 a chance to produce some realistic skins. It is only 2 weeks old now. I think if the right skins become availibe for G2/v6f, we can have something very close to real... at least good enough to fool the average onlooker and make experts look hard. I think DAZ3D is right on track... give it time.... but man are you right on standards.
I think your right on the money! Great renders btw. thank you for sharing.
I appreciate your being helpful and I already own that addon. If you look at the page it reads, "Due to a limitation in how DAZ Studio handles presets, only material presets which are in DUF format can be directly applied."
I would say that most of the skins (and that is dozens) I've bought for V4 are actually '.png' and 'jpg' file formats. I know because I had to manually install the files when I bought them from the competition. I don't think I have any V4 characters in 'duf' format... What that add on does help with is it offers the V4 format conversions for clothing.
All things considered, your render was remarkable ... What skin did you use again?
Character and skin are Salome by Thorn and Sarsa.
Work around for the V4 G2F mats problem: Load the desired mat on to Genesis, then save out a material preset in DUF format.
Work around for the V4 G2F mats problem: Load the desired mat on to Genesis, then save out a material preset in DUF format.
OK. So I load my favorite V4 but how do I save the 'material preset' in '.duf' format using Daz Studio 4.5? Can you do a walk through of what you mean? If you can, I'd be truly grateful cause I have a lot of V4 skins that would look great on that exoskeleton. :)
I agree, Im giving g2 time BUT there are numerous issues with g2 that skins won't fix. I really feel a total break from gen 4 will help a lot, plus some serious looks into hands and feet and arms and bends etc.
Here's a render I spent a bit more time on with g2. Its still not perfectly photoreal but it is a vast step up from a headlamp pic and no attention to mat settings.
NOTE there is one piece of postwork done here. I shot a second image of her in 3delight, with a single light set to specularity ONLY and composited it in photoshop with the lux render of her. And that's something else I'd like to mention on the subject of realism; it doesnt have to be all in 1 render. Postwork can go a long way towards getting you want you want. Unless its a competition contest where the rules state you can do no postwork, your art has no rules!
I agree, Im giving g2 time BUT there are numerous issues with g2 that skins won't fix. I really feel a total break from gen 4 will help a lot, plus some serious looks into hands and feet and arms and bends etc.
Here's a render I spent a bit more time on with g2. Its still not perfectly photoreal but it is a vast step up from a headlamp pic and no attention to mat settings.
NOTE there is one piece of postwork done here. I shot a second image of her in 3delight, with a single light set to specularity ONLY and composited it in photoshop with the lux render of her. And that's something else I'd like to mention on the subject of realism; it doesnt have to be all in 1 render. Postwork can go a long way towards getting you want you want. Unless its a competition contest where the rules state you can do no postwork, your art has no rules!
I love your attitude. Postwork shouldn't be ruled out but... it shouldn't be required. I think your photo could fool a lot of people but you did break the only rule that really matters with that picture... I'm fairly certain that Salome by Thorn and Sarsa is a Renderosity.com product and not a DAZ3D character... and I wondering when DAZ will have great skins... I know Renderosity has them... I think the people who make the character should be setting the benchmarks.
Outside of that.. Your work is a brilliant blend ... experiment with different eyes :)
I don't actually own any skins from Renderosity. The skin I used is http://www.daz3d.com/v4-elite-texture-lana
I also don't feel postwork should be required, and in the hands of someone more skilled with lux materials its probably not needed. But I do want to encourage people to try postwork and workarounds to achieve what they want. Sometimes its just easier.
What I would like to see are more great low-rez character textures. For me it feels more real when you see that "Its Alive!!!" in 3D animation..... so a texture that looks great, is low on system resources, and can work in an animation in DAZ, Poser, Carrara or IClone is what I want more of.
I don't actually own any skins from Renderosity. The skin I used is http://www.daz3d.com/v4-elite-texture-lana
I also don't feel postwork should be required, and in the hands of someone more skilled with lux materials its probably not needed. But I do want to encourage people to try postwork and workarounds to achieve what they want. Sometimes its just easier.
My confusion again.. still brilliant work on your part :p I use to like using Lana's skin with another characters eyes before I had other favorites. :) I think it was Sam or Kaye but I did a combination of pieces of different characters. :) I bet you do to.
http://youtu.be/MHZ79InLGRY
Peace
For me its about being able to produce what I want quickly and then export something that first looks good in a Daz3D render before I transfer it over to a full environment for rendering. I wouldn't want to spend hours on one stage that should take minutes.. I think a lot of us agree.
Have you checked out Raiya's skins? They have all kinds of little imperfections like that.
As for the comments on how some artists have skins which are all a uniform color; I like those very much. Silver comes to mind. Sometimes I do want a texture that looks like an idealistic doll, especially for fantasy renders or artificial characters. Androids are fantastic set off with factory-perfect skin.
I think Connie looks stunning, if stylized. That's not her default makeup; why shouldn't a girl have a showy option like that? I'm also glad to see that for once in the great "real-women-don't-look-like-that" battle someone has dared to go thinner instead of curvier.
My confusion again.. still brilliant work on your part :p I use to like using Lana's skin with another characters eyes before I had other favorites. :) I think it was Sam or Kaye but I did a combination of pieces of different characters. :) I bet you do to.
http://youtu.be/MHZ79InLGRY
Peace
For me its about being able to produce what I want quickly and then export something that first looks good in a Daz3D render before I transfer it over to a full environment for rendering. I wouldn't want to spend hours on one stage that should take minutes.. I think a lot of us agree.
First, thanks for the compliment. I appreciate it.
I agree that I'd love instant results, but then even when I build a plastic model, there's sanding and priming and gluing and painting and sealing... in short, its a hobby and I do enjoy all the fiddling at each stage, but I hear you.
As for the eyes, I tend towards a variety of other eyes, most from texture sets, some from packs of eyes -but few work with g2 right now and I didnt feel like doing another conversion.
You're one up on me, I haven't figured out how to convert my V4 to a '.duf: but then I'd rather see something new and with even better realism... I like to keep on reach for higher ground.. Must have listened to too much Red Hot chili Peppers or Stevey Wonder...
I'm dreaming of a better product... at least if we miss the mark, we will be a hell of a lot closer to where we should be.
Don't mind me... I'm having fun..
I had to do a search on the name and then I discovered that I have about 8 different characters by Raiya. I rarely use the morphs tho.. Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of 'themed' characters and robots and gorillas, vampire.. but I'm not going to be happy till I see something really amazing for G2f... If I figure out this conversion stuff from v4, it might help... I like the expanded expressions ability G2 offers :)
This picture was one of my favorites that I made for New Years. :)
two tutorials
http://www.most-digital-creations.com/V4TexturesV6.pdf
http://simonjm.deviantart.com/art/Applying-V4-textures-to-Genesis-2-Female-382426922
two tutorials
http://www.most-digital-creations.com/V4TexturesV6.pdf
http://simonjm.deviantart.com/art/Applying-V4-textures-to-Genesis-2-Female-382426922
Oh my... that worked nicely. Thank you. It can be hard finding the right directions when you need them. Sooo....
That worked a real treat for me.. I'm where I want to be now so I'm deeply grateful for your help. Nobody has to agree but for me, this is what I wanted to see when I said photo realistic and done with Daz3d.
3Delight, default shader a mixture of my own lights and uberenviroment, to me.. proof realism is in the skin.
i uploaded this on my renderosity gallery.
Its still Work in progress and rendered in 3ds max.
I agree that your renders do strike a cord on photo realism but you should render with DAZ3d if your making a product for this platform.
I really don't get the appeal of software that cost US $3,675.
Could you imagine somebody like me that gets confused on simple software trying to use your advanced techniques? I look forward to seeing the final product in a proper environment.
Thanks for sharing.
OK. So I load my favorite V4 but how do I save the 'material preset' in '.duf' format using Daz Studio 4.5? Can you do a walk through of what you mean? If you can, I'd be truly grateful cause I have a lot of V4 skins that would look great on that exoskeleton. :)
You are correct, Salome for A3 is not from DAZ but Rendo and Faeriedreams. However, if you look at Thornes store here - http://www.daz3d.com/thorne - you will see some more Aiko3 and V3 characters with the skin maps by Sarsa. One of the really nice things about Gen3 characters is that all of them can use the same skin maps so it makes the chacters packs more worth while even if you dont use the base figure its meant for.
For saving a Material preset from DAZ Studio, select the figure or prop in the scene tab, then go to "File > Save as... > Material Preset"
Choose the name an location of the file and then on the next screen you can select all the materials you want to save (useful if you dont want to save all of them) and then save. I personaly do not check off the "compress file" option below cause then you cannot open it in a text editor and manually edit things. Thats more for advanced use and content creation but i mentioned it anyways.
Btw, There are two options for saving surface prests, the one I just listed and the "Shader Preset" option. The difference between them is that a Material Preset is designed to save multiple surfaces and their settings. All the surface settings are save but so is the name of the surface. They are designed to be used with the same model laters on so an Aiko3 material preset cannot be used with another figure unless the surfaces have the same names like the other Gen3 characters do (with an exception in the legs). A Shader Preset on the other had only saves the settings of a single surface BUT that save saved preset can be applied to ANY surface on ANY model in your scene regardless of what it is. If you save a shader preset for skin on from an Aiko3 character you can use it with V4 or Genesis as well. The only thing different you will want to do when applying such presets is to hold the Ctrl key before you click the preset so you can get an options box allowing you to tell DAZ Studio to ignor all image references in the preset. Just a side note, with all native DAZ Studio files, when you hold the Ctrl key before clicking the file you will get an options window pertaining to that file type. The options are different depending on the file type. With pose files that are saved as DAZ Studio native files lets you apply only part of the pose instead of the whole pose.