(yet another) question about graphics cards
2busy4render
Posts: 81
Hi there---I am getting back into Daz Studio after being away from it for years, using the same hardware I had before. So it used to be great but now it's barely in spec. I'm thinking the first place to start is to upgrade the graphics card, and I apologize that this question comes up throughout the forums but if someone can help me with this specific card, I'd appreciate it.
My budget is actually about $0 but anything would be an improvement, so I was looking at a ZOTAC GeForce GT 730 Zone Edition 4GB DDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 (x8 lanes) Graphics Card (ZT-71115-20L). It's listed at about $90 on Amazon at the time of this post.
Is this worth it? Or if you have better suggestions, please let me know. Thanks in advance!
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What are your system specs now?
I have a AMD Phenom 9550 quad-core 2.2 ghz CPU, with 6 GB of DDR2 RAM, and the nVidia GeForce 9100. Any advice?
I'm not a gamer so that's not an issue for me at all.
Thanks again!
I'm sorry but I would not recommend doing any rendering with that system spec. You need a new PC.
Oh well. I had put this box in storage years ago and just pulled it out, and found all the DS stuff on it, and it got me interested again, but I guess I'm too far behind the times. Thanks for letting me know and saving me the money, and maybe I'll come back in the future---it's a great community, have fun!
Hello,
I think for the beginning your system is ok. I work with a nearly similar pc (phenom II 965 BE, GTX 745 4GB and 8 GB ram). It's ok for smaller or medium sized scenes but the system will reach its limits with larger scences. The rendering and main work will be done by the graphic card. A GT 730 is nothing special but it will render faster than almost all processors. I would try buying a used card for around 50 bucks on ebay (try also looking for GTX 745 4GB cards, they are slightly better than the gt 730 cards and go for the same price. It is an oem card that is normally only sold in ready to use pc and can't be bought separately. So it is not well known, but a lot of people sell them after they upgrade their pc) and invest in some more ram (used ddr2 is also pretty cheap).
I would also use the money saved by buying a used graphic card to purchase a small ssd for around 40,- bucks. It will greatly improve your workflow.
Also check that your desired GT 730 graphic card is a version with 384 cuda cores and not 96.
Actually, the first question is what render engine are you going to use? If you are talking about old Daz stuff, then it is all most likely geared for 3DL, which a CPU based render engine. If you are going to use 3DL, then the GPU spec does not matter. If you are looking to get back into Daz and play with this fancy new Iray render engine, then the GPU spec matters, and it matters more than any other spec period.
If you are looking at just fooling around with Iray, you can get by with some older used GPUs. But you want at least 4GB of VRAM as a baseline. Iray is very cruel on old hardware. If your Iray scene exceeds the GPU VRAM, it will drop the CPU mode and not use the GPU at all! And rendering Iray with a CPU is very painful, I am serious. There is a horrifying possibility you may cause yourself bodily harm banging your head against things waiting for CPU to render Iray. Don't let that happen. So the amount of VRAM your GPU has is very important.The number of CUDA cores a card has is next, the more you have, the better, usually. Newer GPUs have faster CUDA cores, so newer GPUs can be as fast or faster than older GPUs that have more cores. You will have to do some research and plan accordingly with what you wish to do.
I suggest taking a look at the benchmark thread. https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/53771/iray-starter-scene-post-your-benchmarks/p1
You can even try it yourself to see just how bad your current machine is. You can look at the times of other machines and consider what GPU might be right for you. The sad thing is that new GPUs are very expensive right now, and that makes it a bit harder to buy one. I personally think a 730 for $90 is bad. I found a GTX 670 4GB for $120, that will smoke that 730 for $30 more. (Do note the 670 has a 2GB and a 4GB version.) I believe that would be a decent card to start with if you found one at that price. The 1050ti 4GB would be an great place to start...if you can find one cheap. That is hard right now.
You do not need to buy a new machine if your machine can install a GPU, but it may be a good idea to consider it down the road. I'd be concerned that this machine sitting in storage may have issues, like the power supply.
For 3Delight/Iray CPU rendering his CPU isn't up to par. For GPU Rendering that GPU isn't what i would recommend. I use a GTX 1070 wit 8GB Vram and that 8GB is barely managing. I use 16 GB Ramm and that is also barely managing.
Sure there are some optimizing tools and other tricks to optimize your render but you can only go so far.
My system is an i7 4770-K Haswell CPU with 16GB Ramm and a GTX1070 8GB graphics card and even i sometimes strugle wit somewhat larger scenes.
So in my opinion i would consider my system to be a minimum. You can drop a bit in graphics card to GTX980 or a GTX1060 butr i do recommend 6-8GB as a bare minimum VRam
...what kind of expansion slots does a system that old have, and would a modern card like a 1070 even be able to fit? I have a 5+ year old system with PCIe 2.0 slots in which a long card would be a tight fit, doable but tight.
Thanks all for replying. I was discouraged but took a try at a very simple Iray render and it worked with what I have---it just took over an hour. So I should have clarified that I'm not doing big scenes, animation, etc. From what I've learned, a system like mine can do very basic Iray renders IF you have the patience and time---not the same thing as being impossible.
The ebay option for GPUs never occurred to me so I'm putting in bids. The 1070 is out of my league and too large for my system, but there are a few offers on the GTX 745 and 670.
Has anyone ever put together a system just for Daz on PC part-picker? It would be awesome to see someone's "ideal" build, but also entry-level and medium-level builds.
Cheers,
every time i try to find a sytem, it comes to $1600 to over $2000 ... and from what I've read on these forums, many believe this to be minimum spec machine. So what I;'ve been looking at: nividia 1060, 1070, or 1080, intel 8700K CPU, 256 SS HD plus 2 TB hard drive, 16 -32 gig ram ... I think you can save a bit buying an AMD CPU based system, or even downgrade the CPU, but there are a lot of applications that can use the added power of an advanced CPU. I need to research the AMD line more.
Nvidia video cards are priced out of this world right now ... that 1070 will run you $600 or more.
My current system, Intel i7-4790 3.6Ghz, 16gig ram, onboard Intel 4600 graphics. It only renders iray using CPU, the choice for GPU does not even come up. It is just OK time wise, in my opinion, taking 1-2 hours with a figure or two. Anything much beyond that it becomes an overnight render, which makes me nuts as I like to see fast results, so I end up doing portrait type stuff.
Lol, yeah, I've still got an Intel Core i3 and on board HD graphics, and have happily been using Iray and dforce. (Though I am seriously wanting a new 'puter this year). Not recommended for a production environment or huge scenes, but do-able.
hiya, if you are not rendering large scenes, and not deterred by a longer rendertime. just buy the best Gcard you can afford. if you want to use the newer Iray render engine, as many Cuda cores as you can get is what you need. ( which mean s using cards built on the nVidia platform) but... i would increase the amount of ram you have to 8Gb, and as fast as you can afford. also, seeing the PC has been in storage for a longish time, i would consider replacing the PSU, with a newer and higher capacity one( thankfully good PSU's are available for good prices)
Daz Studio has come a very long way in recent years( i started with DS 1.7, shifted primarily to Poser around the intro of Genesis, then came back around the time Genesis 2 came about and been primarily a DS user and product creator ever since.
The simple answer is no.
... It might perform reasonably as a monitor card. Depends what you have in that department. Personally, save your cash.
If 'what you have' drives your monitor(s) ok then definitely don't get it. GDDR3 (I presume you mean) is frankly not worth bothering with unless all you do is surf the web and do a few office tasks: Obviously not your intention.
Minimum spec RAM-wise 4GB GDDR5, I don't reccommend less than 6 due to Windows stealing RAM from Cards not in use as they are intended for Rendering.
Yes you can manage with less than 6, note how I use manage; it restricts your scene size and develops skills (not a waste tbh) in scene optomisation.
Minimum Cards, (could consider a 780ti at a push as it was a decent card), 980ti and 10 series cards; 1060 at a push is ok, preferably minimum should be 1070. Look for CUDA cores, more is better. Do NOT compare CUDA cores from different generations (for example a 780ti and a 980ti) as they improve as generations advance to varying extents.
Look at Ebay; the problem really is Crypto-miners are vacuuming up all the cards they can get.
Edit
I use a 970 to drive my monitors, and it does ok if I ever use it to render, but obviously at 4GB it doesn't take large scenes.
my 980ti (6GB) drops to CPU all the time on my current scene; 5 figures with some optimised textures and the background rendering done separately.
The GTX 670 and GTX 770 4GB are certainly cards to look out for. Unfortunately the prices for these used cards also increased massively. Last year at the same time you could get a GTX 770 4GB used for slightly over 100 dollars. I could still slap myself that I didn't get one. These times are over. Furthermore the power consumption of these old cards is massive, so it's important to check your psu before buying one (you will need at least a 500W quality psu). The GTX 1050 TI could certainly be an alternative (also the power consumption of this card is pretty low, the standard version gets its power over the pci-express slot alone so it doesn't need a powerful psu). But the price for this low end card also increased massively. It costs used on ebay nearly as much as new (well over 150 dollars). Another option would be to get two GTX 745 or GT 730 card (you can connect the second via a pci-express extender if you don't have a pci-express slot for a second card on your mainboard, for renders it does make nearly no difference). I know these cards are not well regarded here, but they are the only 4GB cards you can still get relatively cheap, and two of them are nearly as powerful as a much more expensive gtx 1055 TI (same amount of cuda cores), especially if you don't do games it is a viable solution, particularly if your budget is tight.
Also consider buying a programm/application which allows you to queue up renders so you can render them one after another over night. I got one for 5 dollars. I cancel my renders after a few iterations because it is enough for me get an impression how the render looks and then let the computer do the main render work alone over night.
Sorry if i sounded as an elitist, this was not my intention. Bare in mind that my PC is old, the only thing new in it was my graphics card. I had some luck with my taxes so extra money came available. I also was lucky to buy it before the steep increase in GPU prices.
What i did (And this is largely where my claim comes from) Is i load a scene, say a simple bedroom. I get a model with some clothingand then comes the biggie.. Hair. Hair is what can cause huge memory spikes.
I look at the memory use and its about 2-3 GB then i het the render button and i see it climb in my task manager to 12GB havent done anything fancy yet. Changing to different hair can caused it to drop to say 8-9 GB but i always stay well above the 6GB mark, often with only a model and no background scene.
Now im willing to admit I am far from an expert and maybe i am doing something fundamently wrong and i need to spend more time optimizing But what can i optimize when i place only 1 model in lingerie and no background or special lighting....
The only thing i know is her teeth can be removed if she has her mouth closed but thats about it..
So this is where my opinion is based from, not to sound like an elitist.
Thanks again to everyone who had feedback. I not only improved my set-up but forced myself to learn about GPUs. As an update to anyone in a similar situation, here's what I ended up doing (the hardware will be out of date soon enough but the process seemed to work).
I went to the big box computer stores and hunted down a computer that was open-box but had "okay" specs. I found one that was $200, had a i3-7100 chip, and could be uprgraded in the future. The trade-off was it was in a small case, and on 4 gigs of RAM, but for the price it was worth it. Then I went to ebay and bid on GPUs, and eventually got a deal on a GTX 1050 ti for $115. I got a 500 W power supply on sale for $30 from NewEgg, and found a PCI-E riser (USB-type) for $10. The GPU wouldn't fit in the case, and even if it had the mother board didn't have enough juice through the PCI-E slot to power it, so the riser fixed those problems.
This setup isn't going to impress anyone but it is a game changer from where I started, and for about $350. Considering I started by asking about a GPU that was for $100 and not worth it, I'm happy with where I ended up. If I had a bigger budget (say, $500) I'd build my own from scratch instead of buying an open-box computer, pretty much configuring the build around the GPU and processor.
p.s.---the power supply on my original computer died a few days after I posted my question, which a lot of folks predicted!
Nice. I'm glad it worked out. Have you started rendering yet?
@patrick.dewijs
Task manager can't tell you what the GPU is doing. Your 8GB should be enough for many types of scenes. Hair has the biggest impact on render times when you do a closeup.
As for optimizing, you can always optimize texture resolution. There are tools and manual ways to do that.
Once you get your scene set up the way you want it, go through and delete everything that's not visible to the camera. Everything that's visible in the scene gets loaded into VRAM for the render. Some stuff you will need to leave in if you want reflections/shadows of it. Plus all the optomization stuff other people said.
When you talk about your RAM usage, are you looking at system RAM or your actual card's VRAM?
When I first grabbed Daz Studio (last year), I was using a 13.1" laptop with an AMD A8-6410, which meant that the onboard AMD integrated graphics were pretty much useless for Daz. I had installed an SSD and 16GB of ram though, which helped the situation a bit. Iray renders were slow, sure, but I still generated a lot of art before upgrading.
Since then, I upgraded to a very high end laptop with an 18.1" screen, but my point is that just because you don't have NVidia Card with lots of VRAM, doesn't mean that you can't get stuff done even on lower end hardware. As pointed out by others in this thread, it comes down to what fits your budget.
We've covered this before, but it's worth pointing out again.
If you are doing Iray, get the best Nvidia card you can afford, with a focus on the amount of VRAM it has (more ram means the card can hold larger scenes). The CPU is a bit less important, but for those times that scenes can't fit in the VRAM then the CPU becomes more important, as does the amount of system ram you have. I personally suggest 16GB of system ram as an 'ideal minimum', 32 GB is better. 64 GB is basically overkill, but if you can afford it it won't hurt, plus you can start doing more fun things with Ramdisks with that much ram on hand.
Note that even with 8GB of VRAM, if your scenes are rather involved you can exceed this amount somewhat easily, at which point you are rendering on the CPU only, so keep this in mind... At this point, there are things you can do to reduce your scene size, but even then sometimes it won't be enough without significant sacrifices...
If you like 3Delight, then focus on the CPU a bit more. More cores/threads and to a slightly lesser extent faster clock speeds will help. While not everyone can afford the high end Intel processors (read i9-7980xe 18 core)) or the more affordable the 16 core AMD Threadripper, either are worthy goals depending on if your budget will eventually allow such investments... Again, go for decent clockspeed and the highest core/thread count you can afford, assuming you have or can afford the associated motherboard, as budget allows.
Again, it comes down to your budget. Daz can run just fine on many lower end systems, rendering just takes longer...
Finally, SSD's (if you don't have one yet) are priced fairly reasonably these days, and make your system much more responsive, so shooting for a 512GB-1 TB (or 2 TB if you can afford) is a good plan, along with a large (4TB+) HDD to back your stuff up to. Backups are good...
Lots of people here make do with what they have, but upgrading when you can is a good strategy, after doing your research and understanding what your goals are hardware wise.
Just don't feel intimidated if your system specs are on the lower end. It's your hobby, enjoy it at your own pace, and don't stress too much...