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Comments
I'm definitely a rebel (or maybe just old) but I can't stand reading comics on a monitor. I think it's because I sit in front of a computer 8+ hours a day for work and the last thing I want to do is recreational things in front of my computer again in the evening. I also find the experience to be annoying because the vertical pages require a lot of scrolling. So, maybe your approach has merit!
Thanks, and you're welcome. Like you, I spend a lot of time inside my own little box and it takes an effort to get out and see, not what I attempted to do, but what I actually did. (if that makes sense?). Fortunately, there are forums and webinars with nice, creative people like you who are there to help me improve my work!
I am still experimenting with different looks for my potential comic. One of my lead characters is a cop. What do you think to this character, along with a manipulated background I created in Google Sketchup.
It's not bad, but I would appreciate any feedback from others.
Thanks
Pete
This is a very good start to creating a comic-usable look. Before I dive into my super-obsessive nitpicking, let me emphasize that there is a LOT to like here. I think you’re onto something with this approach.
Let’s break this down into categories:
Colors & Shadows
Linework
Composition & Scene
Wow. Looking at it all above, I seem to have gone off the deep end again with my nitpicking. Of course, the only reason I did this was because you inspired me. There is a LOT of good stuff here and I’m interested in seeing where you go with this approach.
Great feedback! Thanks for suggesting some really good points.
The camera angle would be very good. I added the speech bubble after I composited it and it just sort of went in this direction. You are absolutley right, changing it to a low angle would work for this type of shot.
I tried experimenting with shading and shadows on the background and I struggled with that one, due to the lack of geometry in the background. I'm still experimenting with this technique. (Do you think backgrounds should be simple or detailed?)
The colour of the background is pretty distracting. I'm going to simplify the brick pattern and go with a brownish/grey shade for the walls.
I like the comment about changing the position of the speech bubble in order to direct the viewer's eyes across the image.
I will experiment with this and see what effect it has when I try different colour schemes and angles.
I'm going to try and think about directing the viewer's eyes more into the image through creative composition.
I can see you have a couple of tutorials out there, I've taken a look and there's some good advice and techniques.
I might be adding to my comic book tutorial on Udemy with something about composition and engaging the reader. You seem quite knowledgable about this. If you are interested at some point in the future I would appreciate it if you could help out. I would obviously pay you for your contributions and give credit to your work for my students.
It's still an idea at this stage, but if you are interested I will start to develop it further.
Pete
I've been experimenting and I think I've developed an interesting technique for backgrounds. I've played around with different lighting techniques and shaders.
See what you think:
The angle is certainly an improvement. I've combined aimple shading with rendered line art and basic colour passes. Photo 3 has a look up table applied in Photoshop.
Because this is concepting, I am experimenting with all sorts of looks and styles. I'll add a few more images in the post below.
These are the images using the preset LUT files in Photoshop
I quite like the abstract shapes of the first image. It has a bit of Batmanesque look to it perhaps?
These are images with simple gradient overlays
Sorry for taking up loads of space.
I've had some fun making these!
Cool BG images .
Lately I`m experimenting using finished images as BG . At first I was thinking thats not big deal ,Photoshop correction features can help me with that ,
But after tinkering with a lot finished and cool BG images from internet ( which have toon/comic/cel shading and properly done ) I found the main culprit frrom my workflow and give me some answer why my output images never look like proper cel/Toon/NPR out there .
BG and overal scene lighting makes a lot differences . Thats how comic colorist works . Also those tricks change my approach to get faster worklow since I`ll know which color in my scene work seamlessly with another or not
Thanks.
I've found that lighting is really important to getting the right look for the image. In the examples above I used the finished render simply to get the outline work and then I used simple cell shaded colours to overlay in order to try and emulate comic style images. But I have found that look up tables in Photoshop and gradient maps can give some really impressive results.
Thanks for the response. When you get to the point of needing help, drop me a line!
As for backgrounds, I'm a fan of minimalism when it suits the story. By that, I mean starting off with a good image to set the scene (in other words, a god establishing shot to tell the reader where we are) and then cutting down on the backgrounds so that we can focus on the characters or lead props that actually move the story along. As long as it's not taken to an extreme I think that's a method that works for me.
When I complete a few more pages I'll post them along with some diccussion.
I like what I see here. That light pattern definitely adds more depth and interest to the scene. I think that's going to lbe cool when you finish it.
If I may make one more suggestion: once you have a styleyou like, WRITE IT DOWN!
I can't tell you how many times I've forgotten some tiny detail (like setting my blending mode to soft light or overlay) for a particular layer or some lighting effecct. I once created a totally cool anime image with amazing, stark colors. I was playing with light intensity (like in the 5000% - 15,000% range) and got amazing results. But I got called away for work and, a week later I was unable to duplicate the process exactly. I've gotten kind of close, but even using the same render file I cannot duplicate the look I created because I obviously did a few things that I just cannot recall.
Honestly, about half of the reason I did my Poser Noir tutorial was so that I wouldn't forget how to create that paticular look for my comics.
I love seeing what people do during their development phases. I'm usually all over the place as I try to figure out what I want to do and how I want things to look. For example (without any images, though), for my b&w style for one book I've stripped all the bump maps and textures off my figures and then have reapplied simple b&w eyebrows to the face templates. I want a totally clean look for these figures: all my shadows have a sharp edge to them (no gray tones on the shadow edges). But for another story I've decided to keep the textures and allow for softter edges on the shadows, and a slightly different look.
When I have more time in a few weeks I'll look at posting more on this to compare the two styles.
Thanks, it's certainly an improvement over the earlier image.
You're absolutely right about documenting the techniques. I've created stuff in the past only to realise I can't remember how I did it. Luckily now I save my projects in Unity and Photoshop so I can always revist earlier stages.
I've spent most of today recreating the image from above for my tutorial series. It's a better technique than the one I had previously included. Now I have the technique documented in video tutorials, which hopefully I will add to my series tomorrow.
Different comics often require different styles, depending on genre, audience, theme, etc. When you have a story, you want a style that seems to fit. As we know there are thousands of comic styles out there and indeed many here on the forum, all suiting their stories' style. Each artist develops their own style and techniques and uses them to convey their ideas. That's what I enjoy about comics.
Thanks for the advice and critique earlier, it really helped me to fine tune the work I'm doing.
I couldn't agree more. Can you imagine if Superman or Spider-man had been launched in the cartoonish style of Casper the Friendly Ghost? I do not think we'd still be talking about superheroes or watching them at the movies. But even more than something that extreme, there are nuances of detail to consider. As we were discussing earlier, do you need all those bricks in that wall? After all, this is a comic and not a movie.
Here's are two efforts I had a few years back where I used bricks. Even though these two illustrations are actually in print in a small-press role playing game, I'm still not happy with the way I treated all of the rubble. It is overly detailed and does not really fit the character treatment at all.
Now, when you shrink this down to less than 50%, the shadows on the rocks actually don't look all that bad. But if you blow it up I think you'll see that there is too much detail on the wall. This, by the way, was done in Poser using the included "Gamma Girl" figure, but since this was before SmithMicro added the "Comic Book Preview" function, this was rendered in their old Firefly render engine (similar to DS's 3Delight renderer) and took a LOT of hand-editing to touch up lines and rough up the bricks. Yes, all of the rough brick edges were added by me, by hand. It took ages to get a rough look that I liked well enough to send to the publisher.
This second piece is, frankly, a mess. The background took forever to sort out and I think my treatment of the textures was just one bad choice after another. I do like the sky and the smoke lines, though. So, I kind of like the foreground and the background, but all the rubble should have been reduced to just shadows and shapes. To be fair to myself, though, I was trying to create a new style under a tight deadline and the work is good enough when I consider the time constraints and lack of guidance I had from the editor. Oh, and I was working in two different software packages (Poser and Daz Studio).
EDIT: Since I'm dusting off these old pieces, I thought I would toss in this illustration from the equipment chapter of the game. Just some gear from different planets and technology levels.
BTW: I ran this last one at a larger size because it has a very rough halftone pattern (by design) and it doesn't show up when I use a smaller size.
Wow, some interesting pieces there. I particularly liked the weapons image. Sort of reminded me of the weapon breakdown from the Punisher comics. Nicely done. The halftone pattern can create some nice results, but what I like most about it is the clean lines and smooth, bright colours in contrast to the great shadows.
The second image of dethmetyl dominator is nicely composed. I agree that the background would have been more dominant if it were all in shadow, with possibly a few of the bricks on the ground rendered in a contrasting colour. Keeping past work is good to look back on and refine your techniques. Now I'm sure you would do things slightly different. Overall the image is strong with some nice dialogue that draws the reader into the image.
I like the framing in the first image. That line work is impressive on the bricks. I wonder how that would have also looked as mostly all dark silhouette, with only the very edges of the bricks detailed in colour.
The compositions are strong and convey the message of each piece. Having them published is also a justification that they are of a high quality standard.
I like to read a variety of comics from independent publishers as well as the big well known named publishers. It's great to see a variety of styles and pick up on how well they suit the narrative and style of the story. I do however, find it distracting when you get a long running storyline drawn by several artists all using different styles. A lot of the old Conan comics used to have this and it acts as a bit of a distraction.
Thanks! I think the left side of the Gamma Girl illustration is okay and I probably should have used that same level of darkness on it and on the rubble from the fallen hero illustration. Funny you should say that you like the equipment illo best: that's generally the consensus with the readers. Honestly, I think the equipment illustrations in this book and the various space stuff I did in the Galaxy Prime RPG are some of my best published work. Regarding the grayscale image below, the publisher told me that people kept asking him what those little things were next to the gun and he had to admit that he didn't know (they're energy cartridges). That's why I added something similar to the other equipment illustration.
NOTE: If you wonder what the text on the screen says, here it is: If you actually take the time to decode this, you probably have too much time on your hands! But thanks for your enthusiasm.
LOL!
I actually decoded some texts on one of the webcomics I follow but that ones were actually part of the story
Now that's a cool idea, a sort of detective story where people have to decode messages in the images in order to solve puzzles, or figure something out. I like that a lot.
Linwelly Those eyes in the render in your signature are incredible! They are so piercing and harmonious with the blue background. They work so well in that frame.
I remember that the Legion of Superheroes comic in the 1980s frequently had signage and jokes written in their "Interlac" language all over the place. In one of the letters columns they shared the alphabet with us and i recall spending a long evening going through back issues and decoding the messages.
Likewise, there was an alien language in the Micronauts series and they also published the code for us. I recall deciphering a word on a screen once, and it was, "banana."
Hah! A lot of decoding for not much payoff.
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I like comics that are whodunits or have codes. In fact, after I finish with all my fantasy projects I have a short script/layouts completed for a “You Solve It” murder mystery on a space station. I’ve slowly been collecting props and figures for it whenever I see a sale. I’m looking forward to working on it someday.
thanks a lot @jepsonpete_63996f7ec6 now follow those eyes down the rabbit hole :D , Woudl eb happe to see you coming over to read my story
That's a bit lame, if you made all that effort for somethign that keeps coming up but then has no relevance at all.
Those mystery things, where you need to look for details and thing stuff through are really nifty but hard to pull. Needs a rock solid reasoning in the backstory or readers will start picking it apart. Not something I have the patience to prepare.
I think I'm close to defining the style for my comic. I have experimented with the lead male character, but it will be interesting to see how this style works with a female character.
See what you think. I am including the first 3 steps - the outline inks, the colour pass with shading and one with side lighting. Let me know what you think. Thanks
Then I experimented with different styles of lighting, including a black and white pass. My favourite at the moment is the muted colours
Linwelly I had a look at your comic on deviant art. It's very creative. There's a nice story there and a convincing world. The poses for your characters are great, fitting each panel and helping to tell the story.
I found it very immersive, almost like escapism, which is the trait of any good comic. Great work.
@ jepsonpete
I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority, but I think processing 3D stuff to make it look more like a drawing rarely works. Almost all of it looks like what it is: coldly processed. To be sure, some folks are great at it, but even then, it takes an awful lot of time to get it right. Personally, I think much better results could be achieved through tracing and hand-coloring with a paint program. This is probably even more time consuming than the processing method, but the end product looks so much more natural. As for me, after experimenting for a while, I decided to lean into the 3D look with as little postwork as possible. The drawback to this is that there may be too much visual information per panel for a sustained narrative. It's the fumetti problem, which is why that technique is so rarely used. That's my two cents (but when adjusted for inflation is probably closer to my five cents).
Hey thanks, thats great to hear! Though I really like to advertise it onit on webtoons it works much better in the scrol down format.
I really like where you are taking your style, I think that is very impressive and the style would work to catch my interest.
I believe the fumetti had more than just one problem :D, but you address an important point with the business of the background. This is something one should keep in mind when creating the panels, but then that is something one should do for any comic, to decide what goes in the panel and what not, So doing the planning ahead with a script of thumbnails and leaving space for the bubbles should be part of the process
I kind of have to agree with part of what you say. I think some web comics do look like 3D fumetti, but that's not always a bad thing. It's a matter of style and preference.
I do personally agree that for my own art I prefer to hand color things, rather than manipulate the colors in the original render. At least most of the time. Of course, this is not really an issue for me since I work primarily in black & white.
Here's a cartoon I did in Poser Pro 11 using the Comic Book Preview (for the geometry lines), and one time I did combine multiple renders to keep subtle colors on the final image. If I recall correctly, this was created by combining multiple renders and setting the layer blending modes to Overlay (or something like that) to get a hint of skin tone on the guys.
I think it's coming together nicely. You also can use the different colour approaches to match the scene's emotion.
I usually don't like messing around too much with the images that I render for Division, striving for a "realistic look" rather than the classical comic style. But for recent scenes, I have flashback scene parts that are supposed to look different from the rest of the images, so I experimented until I got a look that suits the current stage of things. Here's the steps, using Photoshop CC:
I start out with the actual render.
This layer, I duplicate and use the Glowing Edge filter and the Gaussian Blur filter on it. Then I invert the layer so that it's dark outlines on white ground. For other images, I also converted this layer to black&white, but for this one, I stayed with the original filter colours. I use blending mode Multiply for that layer, with lowered opacity (that one varies from image to image - in this one, around 60% works well).
The next layer is also a Glowing Edge Filter with slightly different settings and no blur effect. It's also inverted. Blend mode is also multiply with a lowered opacity.
This is the result of just the three basic layers:
It gives the edges a slightly darker look, and adds some structuring to certain parts, like the face. The next layer is a curve adjustment layer in normal mode. After tinkering around with the different colour curves, the image looks like this:
On top of the curves, I have a hue&saturation adjustment filter layer. Here's how the result looks without the curves adjustment layer_
And this is the final result...
BeeMKay, messing around with special effects is effective and fun to do. I don't have flashbacks, but one of my themes is the impersistence of memory, and to convey various levels of memories I've used tricks like blurs, sepia tone, PW Toon, etc. My story starts with M4/V4 in 3DL and slowly goes through the generations up to Gen8 using iray. The idea was that newer, clearer memories are the pictures that are more photo real. I don't think it worked as well as I had hoped, but it was fun to experiment.
I guess Demon Division is your main thing, but I personally wish you would update The 4th Wall more often! It's probably my favorite Daz-rendered comic and compares favorably with Scott McCloud's Understanding Comics and its sequels.