3Delight Surface and Lighting Thread

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  • wowiewowie Posts: 1,987
    edited May 2013

    In theory, this could be done in DS4.5 through scripted rendering - the devs supplied a working script for point-cloud AO which is pretty good (though I still went and edited some code to make the cloud work more to my preference), so at least we know clouds are officially implementable now... I still haven't had the heart to tackle this - my eyes hurt from all the code'n'data I have to go through in real life... maybe when I'm on vacation or something.

    Off topic, but interesting.

    Found this page by accident - http://xextria.com/
    The Edger script enables scripted 3delight render in DS3. So, I think there's certainly potential not only for DS4x, but also DS3.

    Post edited by wowie on
  • Mustakettu85Mustakettu85 Posts: 2,884
    edited December 1969

    Szark said:
    I rarely go over that size too but I have seen and heard that 3000 and above you start to see shadow quality drop.
    Gedd said:
    People will render to that size when rendering for poster print as was mentioned. Art to be sold in places like Renderosity.

    I see, thanks guys. So I guess as selling prints is out for me, I don't really have to worry...



    Off topic, but interesting.

    Found this page by accident - http://xextria.com/
    The Edger script enables scripted 3delight render in DS3. So, I think there's certainly potential not only for DS4x, but also DS3.

    Really interesting, thanks! Is there any documentation in English?

  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,234
    edited December 1969

    ...I see, thanks guys. So I guess as selling prints is out for me, I don't really have to worry...

    Why so?

  • wowiewowie Posts: 1,987
    edited December 1969


    Really interesting, thanks! Is there any documentation in English?

    Unfortunately, the only English page is the one for Angelique. Machine translation doesn't quite help.

  • Mustakettu85Mustakettu85 Posts: 2,884
    edited December 1969

    wowie said:

    Unfortunately, the only English page is the one for Angelique. Machine translation doesn't quite help.

    That's sad =(((


    Gedd said:
    ...I see, thanks guys. So I guess as selling prints is out for me, I don't really have to worry...

    Why so?

    Well, I just don't find it necessary to render out stuff at giant resolutions if the only place it ever goes is an online gallery at dA... Giant pics posted online actually annoy me to no end because browsers don't resize them that well, and downloading just to resize... nah, can't be bothered.

  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,234
    edited December 1969

    Mmmm, meant why wouldn't you do pictures to sell. Size of the image in gallery isn't directly related to selling prints as they are separate.

  • Mustakettu85Mustakettu85 Posts: 2,884
    edited December 1969

    Gedd said:
    Mmmm, meant why wouldn't you do pictures to sell. Size of the image in gallery isn't directly related to selling prints as they are separate.

    Because I'm not a popular artist? Neither am I doing popular subject matter. I experimented with enabling prints on some of my dA submissions, but apparently you need to get a crazy loyal following (a giant one, to boot) to sell anything, and there's no way I'm getting one.

  • wowiewowie Posts: 1,987
    edited December 1969

    After reading John Hable's SIGGRAPH 2010 presentation - http://advances.realtimerendering.com/s2010/Hable-Uncharted2(SIGGRAPH 2010 Advanced RealTime Rendering Course).pdf - I wanted to try out the materials under harsh lighting. In the process, I made some tweaks to the SSS, varying strength between different surfaces (since varying refraction and scale have no effect at all).

    First render - the same materials as before, but I changed UE2, UberAreaLight and the distant light intensities to have a more harsh lighting setup. The second one is with the tweaked materials.

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  • Type 0 NegativeType 0 Negative Posts: 320
    edited May 2013

    wowie I like your first one better,
    and Mustakettu85 would you please be so kind as to post your preferred UberEnvironment2 settings? I trust your knowledge and would love to look over your shoulder and cheat off of your test paper.
    also,
    does anyone know of any free to edit and re-release/ re distribute genesis, m4 or v4 translucence strength or subsurface strength mats?

    Post edited by Type 0 Negative on
  • wowiewowie Posts: 1,987
    edited December 1969

    wowie I like your first one better,
    and Mustakettu85 would you please be so kind as to post your preferred UberEnvironment2 settings? I trust your knowledge and would love to look over your shoulder and cheat off of your test paper.
    also,
    does anyone know of any free to edit and re-release/ re distribute genesis, m4 or v4 translucence strength or subsurface strength mats?

    Thanks, though I actually like the newer version. It's easy enough to revert to the old one though - since basically all that's changed is (mostly) in the SSS tab.

  • edited May 2013

    Playing with skin settings is one of my favourite things to do in DAZ so I thought I would come and play along.

    My lighting set up for all my following renders is as follows;

    UE2: White, 60% Occ with Directional Shadows.
    Key Light: Distant Light with a Master and slave set up (one diffuse light, one specular light) White, 50%, Softness 5, Bias 0.010
    Back Light: Single Distant Light, normal illumination, White, 100%, Softness 100, Bias 0.010

    I am using a pretty heavily modified version of Lana Elite on my own custom made Tasha White character.

    The first render of her is as she was in the scene I loaded up from a render I had put together last week. The idea is that hopefully my final image will be better than this one.

    Render 2 is her set with diffuse at 30 and SSS at 70 (with diffuse maps set as it's colour) as was recomended earlier in the post...I thought those settings seemed a little crazy after seeing this render.

    Render three is the same but 60-40

    Render 4 is 80-20 and looks the best in my opinion.

    Render five is actualy several tests later. The Diffuse is now at 100 and I turned my diffuse mats to a pinky red colour in PS and applied them in the colour of my SSS and rendered. It looked exactly the same. I put the strength upto 100, exactly the same. I then tried using mats from Interjection and set them in the strength section at 100%...exactly the same. I don't know if I am doing something wrong here, but using mats with SSS seems to have little effect, even when trying to use things like the interjection strength mats.

    I'll be doing some more renders with different SSS colours, strengths etc as well as trying different things with velvet and translucency and getting them uploaded later.

    I by no means think any body should follow what I do, it's just me trying out a few different things and showing what I get.

    *edit* I've just realised that the forum is showing the images in file size order, as a result the 5th image is actualy render 1 as described above, and image 4 is render 5 as talked about above.

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    Post edited by eighty4toads_6934ce737c on
  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,633
    edited December 1969

    I think the issse is that SSS is already present in the texture maps so any red that should be coming from the SSS will not show. I was troubled by this so I removed all the diffuse texture maps making the diffuse colour a mid gray and turned off all the channels apart from Diffuse and SSS and rendered. Then I was able to see what the SSS was doing. I had better sucess in forgeting the Diffuse/SSS 100% theroy and went for 90% diffuse and 150% SSS with the Interjection SSS Light maps manully loaded in the SSS strength. Then I lowered the red channel in the Diffuse more to compensate.

    Also I got better results with using Uber Surface 2 as it has more control for SSS and using SSS Scale at 0.10 and SSS Shading Rate at 2.00 making the SSS colour a full red 128,0,0 to start with.

    here is my first test render...still a lot of adjusting and I am getting beter results today then yesterday's test shown below.

    More info here http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/19526/P75/#322978 on how I lit the scene etc

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  • edited May 2013

    Bellow is some test done on SSS. It took Pete's addvice and turned my diffuse down to 0 so I could get a better idea of what the SSS was doing to my character.

    The first render is with the Interjection Light maps applied to the strength, set at 100%, scale .1, shading rate 1.

    The second render is with Translucency added with it's colour set as a skin tone and a strength of 20%. I like how it picks up a little bit of the areas that are quite dark due to the Interjection maps, but without being to overbearing.

    The third render is with my diffuse set to 90, using all the settings and maps from the previous 2 renders.

    Next up I'll be doing some more renders with velvet turned on and fiddling with some settings.

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    Post edited by eighty4toads_6934ce737c on
  • edited May 2013

    Next up is a few different tests with the Velvet shader. Remember to keep Velvet turned off on your lips and nails.

    Render 1 is strength 100% with a fall off of 20, white. Not very nice looking I think you will agree!

    The second render is with my specular maps applied to the strength.

    Render 3 is the same as above, but with the fall off set to 10 instead of 20. Personaly I think this one is the best of the last two as the effect as a fall of 20 makes the effect a little to subtle for my own personal taste. I've allways thought that the velvet effect would probably be most effective if it was using a strength map that was actualy made up hairs instead of trying to cheat with a spec map or simply not using one and letting your bumps and displacement do the work. It's something I want to put to the test at some point, but it would take me quite some time to actualy put together the maps needed. None the less, I will try and do it at some point for the sake of trying it and posting results here. If it works, I'll be more than happy to post the maps for people to use.

    I know not everyone likes the velvet shader, but personaly I like it when it is used subtly and isn't making a character look like it's glowing with some kind of halo effect. Everything is subjective and it's up to the individual when it comes to what they use or not, but I am using it here as it's part of my own work flow and it's always good to cover as many bases as possible.

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    Post edited by eighty4toads_6934ce737c on
  • edited December 1969

    Now for a closer view on what I've got so far with a new camera view.

    Render 1 is a close up of my settings upto this point. As I've been looking at other areas so far, I've not covered my bump and spec settings. These are the settings I've been using throughout this set of images.

    Specular: 65%, 8 gloss, 2 sharpness
    Bump: 80% -0.010 min, 0.010 max
    Displacement: 10% -0.10 min, 0.13 max

    Render 2 has had it's spec lowered a little, as well as its sharpness to make smoother transitions, as well as its bumps.

    Specular: 50%, 8 gloss, 0 sharpness
    Bump: 60% -0.010 min, 0.010 max
    Displacement: 10% -0.10 min, 0.13 max

    The third render has the same spec settings, but softer bumps and displacement which has softened the transitions even more. There is a very strong interaction between your bump, displacement and specular settings, all of which can often depend on the mats you are using. There is no one finite mixture or settings that can be applied to every skin set. This is where your own knowledge and experience comes into play. The interplay of specular highlights coupled with bumps and displacements is probably a subject that deserves a tutorial or thread all on its own!

    Specular: 50%, 8 gloss, 0 sharpness
    Bump: 50% -0.010 min, 0.010 max
    Displacement: 50% -0.10 min, 0.13 max

    These images only have slight differences in them so you will most likely need to download them and then flick between them in your image view to see the differences. For now, I think I've probably done all I can to this skin set from my own knowledge and experience, so I am going to set this scene up again with a skin set that is not quite as detailed as Lana Elite, and more geared towards fantasy/toony renders. I don't really know how different the results and settings will be, but it's got to be worth trying a different style of textures to cover more bases.

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  • edited December 1969

    Before moving onto the next skin set I thought it might be worth posting a few images showing the last bunch of settings 'in action'. Everything I've covered with my experiments so far are in here, and it's still the same light set up as described in my first post. Hopefully with these images we can see how the settings look in shadowed areas as well as parts that are in direct light.

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  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,633
    edited December 1969

    Looking good Toadz.

    here is my lastest test, same set up as before just tweeked a few things. Nothing major just light positions, intensties and spec settings. Put the spec maps back in but instead on them being in the colour channel I put them in the strength channel instead. I could never figure out why a dark spec map was doing in the colour channel to start with. :)

    No Velvet or Transluceny.

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  • edited May 2013

    Szark said:
    Looking good Toadz.

    here is my lastest test, same set up as before just tweeked a few things. Nothing major just light positions, intensties and spec settings. Put the spec maps back in but instead on them being in the colour channel I put them in the strength channel instead. I could never figure out why a dark spec map was doing in the colour channel to start with. :)

    No Velvet or Transluceny.

    Thanks bud!

    As for spec maps in the colour channel, that is something I've never understood myself. In the strength channel yes, but colour? Hmm...dosen't make sense to me. I've seen it done most with hair props, and also mats set to gloss strength channels, but it just seems a little counter intuative. Personaly, I prefer to let my bump and spec gloss/strength deal with what they should, and have the colour channel produce one flat tone that your bump and spec's effect accordingly. Again, it's all subjective but personaly I have no idea why a spec map would be used in a colour channel, when it's meant to be used in the strength channel.

    Post edited by eighty4toads_6934ce737c on
  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,633
    edited December 1969

    I agree. I even mix and match getting the best Spec maps from my library as some spec maps are just plane wrong or I take then in to PS and adjust them.

  • edited December 1969

    Ive tried mixing and matching spec maps myself, but Ive often run into problems with things like positioning of eyebrows and how it effects spec highlights on a character. I've had it where you can clealy see spec highlights appearing above or below the diffuse mats. Same with bumps. Because of my Tasha and Poppy characters, I've learnt to edit mats and totaly swap out things like eyebrows on diffuse mats as well as bump and specs. Some of it has come from buying good merchant resource kits for things like eyebrows rather than using ones from photos (I've done that too), but also from a good understanding of things like the healing brush and clone tool in PS too smooth areas you are working on. That is one of the first and most imporatant steps I would say personaly.

    None the less, alot of the time things like spec and bump maps can be fixed for a character quite easily using simple tools like brightness/contrast, stauration and light levels in images. It just takes a bit of practice and experimentation to undertsand like with most things, and can mean you don't have to swap out maps and use sets that are deisgned for another character entirely. I usualy use a good set of spec maps as a point of reference and then try to alter the ones I am using to as close as I can get to the good ones. Map swapping is good, but I'd say it's better to alter things like the bump and spec maps you have, so you stay truer to your diffuse maps.

  • wowiewowie Posts: 1,987
    edited May 2013

    HSS and UberSurface have different implementation of SSS (and different settings). I actually prefer HSS, though it is more limited.

    Removing any maps and playing with pure settings is a good way to get a grasp of what each setting mean. You can more clearly see the changes. Refraction influences the mix - closer to 1 willl bring out the SSS color and closer to 3 the diffuse color. Scale determines transluscency - how far the scattered light travels within the object. If you're seeing bands, it's very likely the shading rate is set too high. I generally set mine at 4, though for faraway characters, you probably need lower values.

    Inserting maps generally lowers the strength/values of any surface (diffuse, specular, SSS etc). If you do use SSS strength maps, you would want stronger settings, which will then be 'toned down' by the map. Inserting the maps in either slot, strength or color, will work.

    Don't forget to see the object from behind (the camera facing the light, the object/figure between the light and the camera). You should be seeing more transluency in the ears, limbs but not so much on the body and head.

    If you're using SSS, you shouldn't use transluency since it's designed for very thin surfaces and wouldn\'t work well with objects with more volume.

    Post edited by wowie on
  • edited December 1969

    OK, I decided to get USS2 for these experiments and to see what all the fuss is about.

    I loaded up my character and applied the shader, hit render and got the results bellow.

    I tried closing Studio and reloading the scene, applied the shader again and got the same results.

    I guess USS2 is great if you want to make to make ghosts, hehehe, but it dosen't seem to be very good for humans. Yes I am being a little sarcastic there, but if anyone has any idea whats going on, it would be much appreciated.

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  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,633
    edited December 1969

    Use the Upgrade preset Toadz as the main loading preset will remove your maps even if you hold down CTRL.

  • edited December 1969

    Thanks bud, I 've tried that but with no luck :(

    When it's applying it's not removing any mats, everything is still there. If you look at the image you can see that there is basicaly no form to the character at all, so it's like the light isn't even interacting with the model no showing any maps. Very strange.

  • edited December 1969

    Just noticed that I am getting this error as the image is rendering, I don't know if it will mean anything to anyone, it certainly dosen't to me.

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  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,633
    edited December 1969

    What version of DS4.5 are you using. DS4.5.1.56 is what I use and it works ok. Also did yiu install this to Program Files as that is a no no. :) No content should be in Program Files ever. Also you did install the DS4.5 version and not the DS3 version?

  • edited December 1969

    All my content is in the DAZ folder in Documents. Installed the DS4.5 version and followed all the on screen info. I've tried installing it again just in case I had sent it to the wrong place and it's still not working. I'm also using 4.5.1.56. I have to say, this whole process of upgrading to 4.5 has been a total nightmare, it has pretty much destroyed large chunks of my content and how it's arranged, like how now I don't even have USS1 as an option to apply, I have to use Calida's floor shaders too apply USS and then remove his settings. I think I am probably just going to go back to DS4Pro that they gave away for free with Hex etc, because I've had nothing but trouble since moving to 4.5 and it's not worth all the hassle it gives me for the sake of using the latest version of something.

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,633
    edited December 1969

    First off DS4.5Pro is still free and willl show up in your Account given you got DS4Pro free.

    My process of upgrading is such:

    First uninstall CMS via the Windows Control Panel
    Then install DS4.5 and it will ask to remove DS4
    Install the latest Genesis Starter Essentials and it will uninstall the old.
    I don't use DIM (Daz Install Manager)

    I have never had a problem doing it this way.

  • edited December 1969

    Thanks bud, I'll give it a try later once I am done finishing up a Dune render I've been flicking back and forth on for a couple of days.

    Thanks again for the info!

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,633
    edited December 1969

    No worries hope it works out for you.

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