Why daz vendor sitll offer pp2 or daz scene files without duf?

kitakoredazkitakoredaz Posts: 3,526
edited March 2013 in Product Suggestions

Vendors may need to offer product for 4th geneartion figure or for poser user.
as pp2 obj, cr2, mc6 etc,,, but,,

But why there is not duf files for ds 4.5 user about new product?

About ds 4.5,, duf is better file type to use. about many case,, we use duf.

when I use pp2 prop or scene set , or cr2 rig figure,,
and saved the scene in ds 4.5, it make many gabbage files in auto-adapted folda.

these file type (not have actuall geometery data in data folda)
cause problem or difficulity, when modify material ,, apply morphs, then save ,,
export etc.

I recommend vendor to offer product (prop or scene sets,, ) as duf too.
there is already DSON format for ds 4.5 (it is deffault version for ds user)

Even though about daz original new items,, daz still offer scene set or prop as pp2 only
without duf.

if there is choice,, I can understand,
but why ds 4.5 user need to use pp2 files or daz scene files about new product?
DAZ do not hope user to use DSON any more?
DAZ hope user to save as daz, or pp2 ?

if there is no difference,, we need not to use DSON any more.
but actually,, ds 4.5 much and work well with DSON format.

why DAZ do not request vendor to offer product as duf for ds 4.5 user?

Post edited by kitakoredaz on
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Comments

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 86,009
    edited December 1969

    If the legacy format works, why deliberately restrict the product's reach by using the new format? If .duf offrs advantages, or if the item will work only in DS4 or in Poser via the DSON Importer, then .duf is the best format to use and is probably what will be used.

  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,258
    edited March 2013

    Well for one reason, a lot of DS users are tired of having their folder structure look like the mess it is. For another, the way it's marketed, duf is the end-all be-all with faster load times, portability and other advantages built in from the start supposedly, complete with magic pixie dust.

    Post edited by Joe Cotter on
  • nitehawk_ltdnitehawk_ltd Posts: 387
    edited March 2013

    The biggest reason is to make it backward compatible to all the people who don't use D/S 4 or Poser 9+ or Genesis.
    As .duf files only work in the most recent versions of Studio & Poser, they would loose all those potential customers.
    If it is for a genesis figure, that's different. If it's not, why go to the extra work to make a .duf file?

    Post edited by nitehawk_ltd on
  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,258
    edited March 2013

    Well I wasn't actually disagreeing, although my post looks like it. I was just stating two of the reasons someone gives when asked that question (devil's advocate and all.) However, the second argument previously mentioned about load time and portability... seems you ignored those nighthawk?

    I haven't actually tested the two methods side-by-side so it's more of a question then a statement.

    Post edited by Joe Cotter on
  • nitehawk_ltdnitehawk_ltd Posts: 387
    edited March 2013

    My statement stands.
    If the figure, prop, pose & etc. needs a .duf file it will have one. If it doesn't need one, it probably won't.

    It depends on what DAZ requires of it's PA vendors. All new products will probably have them.
    But everything that's in the pipeline to be released may not.
    As for the old stuff, not happening.

    By the way Gedd, I agree with what you say in your sig. :)

    Post edited by nitehawk_ltd on
  • NeilrNeilr Posts: 69
    edited December 1969

    Ok I've made some pp2 props and hav enot done anything with duf files ... so what is the best way to make it duf? I would like to add that to my props to make it easier for those who use it, but I would still hav eto have the pp2 I think...not sure yet will have to play with the duf format to see if it is easily doable and I may just go with that. BTW it is important that I choose as I am working on a new modular castle with many, many props (over 100 now just for the basic round towers) and I am not going to go back and redo all the files later, or would hate to so I need to decide now.

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  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 86,009
    edited December 1969

    To create native prop load and select your item, then go to File>Save as>Support Asset>Figure/Prop Assets...

  • NeilrNeilr Posts: 69
    edited March 2013

    So this is done to the obj or the pp2?


    Edit: also I noticed that there is a Save As>scene Subset......this also created a duf file is there a differance between the two set subset and asset prop?

    Post edited by Neilr on
  • BWSmanBWSman Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Either one will work as long as the prop is properly textured & scaled before saving

  • kitakoredazkitakoredaz Posts: 3,526
    edited March 2013

    Richard,, :ohh:so that,, why vendor (and DAZ) do not do it? why user need to save as duf?
    I request to the vendor, and daz , what you say to me.

    there is no save option in ds 4.5 to save as pp2 or cr2, mc6 etc,,,,, as you know. (default daz studio)
    it clearly show,, we may better to use dson format when use assets or files in daz studio 4.5.

    but some or many vendor sitll release product without duf

    And this is my suggestion (and request) to vendor
    who do not think to save it as duf and offer them for duf user.
    and who do not think the importance.

    Of course if I really hope to get the item,
    I may buy pp2 and .daz product which is not offered as duf.

    but it may weak my emotion to get product.

    I hope vendor understand the feeling, if they hope ds 4.5 user (and new user who will come)
    buy their items too,,

    I believe guys who response my suggestion understand I do not request vendor to stop offer product as cr2, or pp2.
    or mc6 or daz, scene files.

    I hope they apply duf too and give me better choice for ds 4.5 user.

    Now there is ds 4.5 and it is default version which daz offer users.

    usually new user may download ds 4.5, and they will be used to duf.
    why they still need to mix pp2 and duf,, or mc6 and duf and daz scirpts,
    or daz old scene files?

    duf is inferiority than pp2 and daz scene file for ds 4.5 user.
    So I hope vendor to offer them as duf too with many presets,, ,if they can do it.

    ================================
    there is most simple case,, eg if you want to apply morph for your props.(or set)
    you know You can easy make morphs for props in daz studio with few steps.
    but after make it,, we can not save the morph as ds default file type.

    First we need to save it as figure and prop as duf (dsf) first.
    and you may hope,, if there is material preset,, you want refference with the duf (dsf) type file
    not old pp2 .

    if I get this product from Smith micro shop, or serch and get items for poser,
    or I get free items,,I think it is usuall.
    but vendor offer prop as pp2, not duf, or vendor offer scene as old .daz scene files,
    then sold them for ds 4.5 user too.

    Vendor offer product in daz official shop , daz offer product as daz original for ds user.
    daz suggested and offer user to use DSON, and DAZ do not keep perfect compatibility about poser type files
    or old .daz file. (eg save option) in ds 4.5 as default.

    there is clear conflict I think.

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    Post edited by kitakoredaz on
  • AscaniaAscania Posts: 1,723
    edited December 1969

    Because it is more bloody work for no gain!

  • WilmapWilmap Posts: 2,917
    edited March 2013

    I make free Genesis clothing items and save all my files as .dsf so DS4 users can use them.

    These can still be used in DS4.5, they don't need to be in .duf format. But DS4 users cannot use .duf files, they are the losers, not new users!!!

    Post edited by Wilmap on
  • kitakoredazkitakoredaz Posts: 3,526
    edited December 1969

    Willmap,, why ds 4 user are loser?
    and,,, I do not say you stop to offer new product as dsf.

    actually some vendor offer us prop as duf with, dsf ,pp2 for poser user too.

    about dsf . I understand,, (because there are still ds 4 user, who do not hope to use ds 4.5)
    but may better apply duf too. if you think not only ds 4 user.
    and if you say about dsf not duf,, ds3 user are true loser for you.

  • kitakoredazkitakoredaz Posts: 3,526
    edited December 1969

    Askania,, what is bloody work?
    save as duf and release it as package for ds 4.5 user, is so bloody work?
    set meta-data is so difficult?

    if you are one of vendor,, then you think it is too bloody work, so that you do not hope release as duf.
    hope to release as pp2 or daz scene without duf. jusd do it as you like. :)

    this is only my suggestion for vendor who release and sell items in daz shop.

    It is simple.

    There is new format, and it has inferiority. then the format become default for curernt aprication, not beta.
    user hope vendor to offer product which are written as default format.

    then I have never said,, stop offer dsf or, pp2 , or old .daz scene files for other aprication or version.

    just hope vendor in daz shop and daz company to
    offer new product as duf if they can. it cause benefit to ds 4.5 user. there is no difference, new or old.

  • WilmapWilmap Posts: 2,917
    edited December 1969

    I can't save as .duf because I only use DS4.

  • kitakoredazkitakoredaz Posts: 3,526
    edited December 1969

    willmap,, you may feel bad for my suggestion and bad manner, then I am sorry.:ohh:

    I am ds 4.0 user from one yeas ago,, whenI lern about something, daz quicly change everything
    without clear guide.

    or daz even release duf product which fit to my need,, when it was beta,,
    (there were many problems when use old daz scene with newds 4 beta which come with duf, )

    I bought the item for beta,, in daz shop, I could not use it. I angry and recall.
    I remember I shouted and say many complain in this forum.

    but ,, after ds 4.5 is default verison,, I download them and study how to use, without clear official document.
    there are too many things which I can not clear understand still.
    because daz change many things.

    but if DSON is defualt format for current verison,, I need to lern and stick to it.

    I actually use your free items,, you feel you do not hope use them by me, OK I uninstall them ,,:roll:
    but it is another problem which file type is better for ds 4.5 user.
    and it is not mean to stop offer product for ds 4 user who can not use duf files.

    and I said about new product which released in daz shop.
    I am messy to get angry you. because I know your many free good tools,, and enjoyed them,,
    (as for me,, many of them are for fabricator,, )

    but I hope you download ds 4.5 as soon as you can,, (is there machine trouble?)
    I believe it may grow your possiblility as vendor (artist):down:

  • WilmapWilmap Posts: 2,917
    edited March 2013

    My free items are for anyone to use, whether they have DS4 or DS4.5. I do not wish to stop any one from using them.

    My point is that if I make my items in .duf format, only DS4.5 users can use them. DS4 users, who can't use DS4.5 for some reason won't be able to use any of them, so that is why I save as .dsf.

    I have downloaded DS4.5 on my laptop, and tried it out. Personally I don't like it, so I will continue to use both DS3 and DS4 which I have on my main PC.

    Post edited by Wilmap on
  • jestmartjestmart Posts: 4,449
    edited December 1969

    kitakoredaz, I don't understand what you mean by, "but if DSON is defualt format for current verison,, I need to lern and stick to it." What DS users need to learn is how to pose, adjust surfaces and set up lighting to get the look they want. If they do this it doesn't matter if a product doesn't have .duf files or any other DS preset files. Furthermore your request and similar requests by other DS noobies may discourage some vendor away from DAZ3D's store.

  • KhoryKhory Posts: 3,851
    edited December 1969

    As a studio 4.5 user there is a part of me that really agrees with kitakoredaz. I don't want to hunt around for anything any more and I sure as heck have no interest in yet more products that I have to hunt up the file for and then plod around looking for the material files that may be there for the product. Nor is it rocket science to save out the .duf files. It is actually only takes one minute to save out the .duf. A couple of years ago I just flat stopped buying anything that did not come with Studio material files. And I doubt if I will be buying many products going forward that are not optimized for studio 4.5 with .duf files. Not that I think content creators should stop including the other file types so they optimize potential sales. It is just that at some point in the very near future no .duf will be a deal breaker for me.

  • kitakoredazkitakoredaz Posts: 3,526
    edited December 1969

    Jestmart,, I think you do not think about usability. because you are aritst not hobbist.

    you or many daz artist or beteran user can make more and more good scene without duf than new ds user , me.
    but it is the problem of skill and time. it is clear.

    Now duf is most compatible format for ds 4.5, if you do not think so,, you can ask daz programmer
    which is better format for ds 4.5.

    duf format with data as dsf , make easy to import or export for other 3d tools
    .and make easy to customize and manage with ds 4.5
    (so that now poser user can use genesis too, is not it?)

    duf can load assets or scene first than other type files.
    it can easy to make morph and saved.

    even though it is not worth for true 3d artist or veteran user,, it is important for hobby user who buy daz items from daz vendor.
    and duf format make easy for vendor to plan new plug in for ds 4.5 too.

    when you get new hard,you hope to get soft which work better. eg you have blue ray recorder,
    then there is brue ray and, dvd soft,,, which you choose?

    if you get new Hard, or new pc , and there is not many soft which can use the new power,
    how you think? do not you request to offer product which more fit to new Hard?
    or you just buy product which can use in your new pc as same as before?

    I choose duf than pp2. I choose duf scene than daz scene. I prefer to use and save as duf.
    because it is more simple.

    it make more easy to "play" with 3d and daz studio.

    I understand,, after daz offer genesis as triax figure, , many user hope to install ds, and
    start playing 3d. But some vendor did not make items for genesis. because there are many poser user,
    who do not like use daz studio. because they are used to poser than ds..

    But user who do not use genesis , or poser user keepe to request daz which can use in poser too.

    it is same,, the vendor offer product as pp2 or mc6
    do not think much about duf. and ds user.

    it is same . the vendor who offer product without meta-data, or still make mistake,,
    not think much about meta-data and smart content user.

    it is same the vendor who offer product without good tutoriall or manuall
    they do not think much about new user.

    the vendor offer product for V4 only not think much about genesis user.
    but all vendor can sell items in daz shop. and daz recognize it.

    no need to stop ds 4.5 user who request daz offer product as duf.

  • Tramp GraphicsTramp Graphics Posts: 2,396
    edited December 1969

    As Wilmap said, there are still people, like myself, who still use Daz 4.0, which does not support the .duf format. Therefore, we need products that still use the "Legacy" .DSF format standard. Now, if Daz could make 4.5 backwards compatible, so it could make backwards compatible files, there wouldn't be this problem. Regardless, having files in "legacy" .dsf format allows those of us who still use 4.0 the opportunity to use a given product. Those products which are .duf only are useless to us, and thus, the vendor loses potential sales. It's simply good marketing. I wish there was a way to convert .duf format products to "legacy" .dsf format.

  • KhoryKhory Posts: 3,851
    edited December 1969

    Now, if Daz could make 4.5 backwards compatible, so it could make backwards compatible files,

    4.5 can make the old deprecated files.

    Those products which are .duf only are useless to us, and thus, the vendor loses potential sales.

    Sometimes it is not an option to use the old file types. 4.5 and the .duf system simply does things the old file types could not and have made some products possible that would never have been doable in the same way in the older versions of studio.

  • NeilrNeilr Posts: 69
    edited December 1969

    Just thinking about having both sets of files in one install (for a prop) if it has a duf and the pp2 or other format, the metadata would be tricky I think...or maybe renaming the legacy format in metadata so they both show up in smart content but as different things....

  • Tramp GraphicsTramp Graphics Posts: 2,396
    edited December 1969

    Khory said:
    Now, if Daz could make 4.5 backwards compatible, so it could make backwards compatible files,

    4.5 can make the old deprecated files.

    Those products which are .duf only are useless to us, and thus, the vendor loses potential sales.

    Sometimes it is not an option to use the old file types. 4.5 and the .duf system simply does things the old file types could not and have made some products possible that would never have been doable in the same way in the older versions of studio. Not to my knowledge it can't, hence why no one who works in 4.5 can make morphs, hair, or clothes, etc. for 4.0 users. 4.5 can read older format files, but can't make them.

  • KhoryKhory Posts: 3,851
    edited December 1969

    "but can’t make them."

    Yes it can. There is a full list of deprecated file types at the bottom of the save as options in both file at the top and opened by hitting the + button. But being able to make the older versions of files does not mean it is the optimal way to save them in a growing number of cases.

  • Tramp GraphicsTramp Graphics Posts: 2,396
    edited December 1969

    Khory said:
    "but can’t make them."

    Yes it can. There is a full list of deprecated file types at the bottom of the save as options in both file at the top and opened by hitting the + button. But being able to make the older versions of files does not mean it is the optimal way to save them in a growing number of cases.

    That must be a new feature then, because the admins themselves had stated from the beginning that 4.5 would not be able to save backwards compatible files
  • FixmypcmikeFixmypcmike Posts: 19,020
    edited December 1969

    Just for the sake of clarity, DS4.5 can save scripts for DS3 and DS4.0, but it can't save .daz scene files.

  • Tramp GraphicsTramp Graphics Posts: 2,396
    edited December 1969

    Just for the sake of clarity, DS4.5 can save scripts for DS3 and DS4.0, but it can't save .daz scene files.
    That's what I figured. But .daz scene files isn't what I'd want to have converted anyway.

    I wish there was a way to convert morphs, clothes, hair, and such to 4.0 from 4.5 so that those of us still using 4.0 could have access to products made by people using 4.5. There are a number of them, such as the Breast and Glute Movement package, I'd love to actually be able to use.

  • kitakoredazkitakoredaz Posts: 3,526
    edited December 1969

    Tramp Graphics, I do not suggest people who prefer ds 4.0 if they hope not.
    (or user who can not install to their pc)

    I said,,
    Why daz and vendor sitll offer pp2 or daz scene files without duf?

    just hope vendor and daz , apply duf files (current format) which need not use pp2 or ,daz, for ds 4.5 . (current ds version)
    it is naturall.

    when user download ds 4.5 and genesis starter essential,
    many default contents exchange dsf , pp2, and daz scene files to duf.
    there is only ds, dsa, dab, and duf. actuall geometry data are installed in data as dsf.

    on the other hand,, about new product,, daz still release these file type without duf.
    these opositte action simply weak DAZ and daz studio evolution.

  • Tramp GraphicsTramp Graphics Posts: 2,396
    edited December 1969

    Tramp Graphics, I do not suggest people who prefer ds 4.0 if they hope not.
    (or user who can not install to their pc)

    I said,,
    Why daz and vendor sitll offer pp2 or daz scene files without duf?

    just hope vendor and daz , apply duf files (current format) which need not use pp2 or ,daz, for ds 4.5 . (current ds version)
    it is naturall.

    when user download ds 4.5 and genesis starter essential,
    many default contents exchange dsf , pp2, and daz scene files to duf.
    there is only ds, dsa, dab, and duf. actuall geometry data are installed in data as dsf.

    on the other hand,, about new product,, daz still release these file type without duf.
    these opositte action simply weak DAZ and daz studio evolution.

    The reason why is because some of these products were made before 4.5 came out, or, as in my case, were made using 4.0, which can't save .DUF format.

    For the record, in 4.0, .DSF is also used for saving actual prop and figure asset files, not just the geometry data.

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