A Bit Disappointed with the New Supercomputer
This discussion has been closed.
Daz 3D is part of 
Connect
DAZ Productions, Inc.
7533 S Center View Ct #4664
West Jordan, UT 84084
Licensing Agreement | Terms of Service | Privacy Policy | EULA
© 2025 Daz Productions Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Comments
I respectfully disagree. OP encountered a problem due to an immature ecosystem related to a new product, one that was expereienced by owners of prebuilt systems with the same parts as well. he was directed to a fix that was quick, and his system is running well now. The remedy to DIY blues is an hour of research prior to buying parts.
I agree that buying a prebuilt is not a ripoff, but it's not difficult to get the same or better performance and reliability out of a DIY rig, in my experience.
The right parts definitely depend on the application. Here, though, it's safe to assume that primary application for most users is DS, which needs a strong Nvidia GTX card. Easy peasy.
"I respectfully disagree. OP encountered a problem due to an immature ecosystem related to a new product, one that was expereienced by owners of prebuilt systems with the same parts as well."
Which major workstation builder do you think would let a computer with an immature ecosystem and gimped performance past their QC and how long do you think they would stay in business if they did? If I go online and buy a prebuilt Dell or HP system, I can be sure those bugs have already been ironed out. They have already tested the systems and tuned them to peak efficiency. DIY'ers will learn about the problem after they bought the parts and put the thing together. This is not a knock against DIY systems. If you can't afford a pre-engineered system or your needs are minor (a typical household family computer), there is no need for such scrutiny. But if you are putting together what is the computer equivalent to an F1 car (uh, maybe NASCAR) , a DIY will rarely give the same experience as a well selected Dell or HP system.
I think few major workstation builders would let a computer with an immature ecosystem pass the QC, but in this specific case, they all did. Preconfigured Ryzen systems were available from Dell, HP and Asus, and all of them needed the AMD Chipset driver update.
Sorry, I should have said the prevention of DIY Blues is an hour of research prior to buying parts.
This is the main thing I disagree with, because it all boils down to parts. Having had both, my experiences have shown me a DIY gives the same performance as a well selected prebuilt...always.
Don't get me wrong, there's value in peace of mind for sure, which is why I agree that prebuilt rigs aren't a ripoff. But if a Dell technician puts a 1080 ti in my system, or I put it in, it's still gonna do the same thing.
You must be running a pretty sweet rig, huh?
"This is the main thing I disagree with, because it all boils down to parts. Having had both, my experiences have shown me a DIY gives the same performance as a well selected prebuilt...always."
Well, apparently you are misunderstanding me or you are a master builder. I never said that you can't build a system to match a prebuilt one. What I said was you will most likely experience DIY blues (unless you copied exactly someone else's successful build). The OP decided to build his own, I'm sure for various legitimate reasons, and I'm sure he saved some money, but he is paying the balance with his time. He is doing the testing and the tuning. That is the nature of DIY. The DIY'er has to do the research (as you mentioned), testing and tuning of the system. Sometimes this can take quite awhile. Some builders enjoy the process but I get the feeling the OP doesn't. In the end, they should be able to match the performance objective. It depends on the skill and research of the builder. Yeah, I am very happy with my systems.
BTW, please inform me as to which company (Dell, HP, Lenovo or equivalent) let a gimped ryzen workstation past their QC. I'll give you a clue: None of them. No reputable workstation builder would risk their livelihood on an immature product. If you see Ryzen systems out there, they are most likely gaming computers. If I am serious about 3D, I am not going to buy a pre-built gaming rig.
...that's why I took a year and a half to study PC design and configuration before even starting on a build. I read enough horror stories of systems not working a expected or even going up in smoke when first turned on. I also did a tonne of research on components and compatibility reading white papers and spec sheets until it felt my eyes were about to fall out. When I was finally ready, then I went ahead, purchased the components and built the system. Yeah it cost me a bit, but still came in under the price of a custom build (not by 50% but still an appreciable savings), and far better than "off the shelf" systems I reviewed.
When I first started working with it, I was amazed at how fast it rendered (then only 3DL) When I reported the render times for scenes I posted, people were amazed at how I was getting such good render times and low system temps (without water cooling which was fairly "exotic" back then). It all came down to the time I spent beforehand making sure I was ready to attempt such a project. Yeah, as I was working in a low paying gig, the 1,500$ put into it was a major investment (already had the display, and peripherals) so it was in my best interest to make sure it didn't all go up in smoke.
Compared to today's systems it may seem a dinosaur with its first generation i7, 12 GB of 3 channel DDR3 memory, and 1 GB GPU card with over 400 cores (which at the time was top of the line), but it still gets the job done. I get 3DL renders in mere minutes and even simple to medium "weight" Iray scenes in a little over an hour, or less. It's those really big scenes that drag as I often exceed my available physical memory and it dumps to swap mode. Hopefully when I finally upgrade the memory to the full 24 GB (and I made sure the sticks I am looking at are compatible) that will be a thing of the past.
...and if I can come up with the scratch, a GPU card that I can actually render on (like a 1080 Ti, but I'd gladly accept a 1070 for the right price).
Technically there's no problem in keeping only the main image and the latest differential one, I just prefer to keep them all so I can revert back to any version of my system if some hidden problem should show up.
Besides they're compressed so they don't take up that much space, in my case 13 image files / 218 GB. If I only keep the main image and the latest diff file, it's about 60 GB. If I copied the system files to another computer or whatever, uencrypted, they would take up about 100 GB. Besides, I prefer to use the extra computer for something else until the main computer breaks down and I'll need it for replacement, if that should happen.
And yes, I can both view and restore every file and folder in each image whether the images are encrypted or not (optional). Here's a screenshot of the image viewer, showing files from an encrypted image:
drzap,
Maybe some background will help you understand.
I had two desktops, a main Dell and a backup HP, as well as a Linux laptop. The Dell had a new 750 watt PS, a new GTX 1070, 48GB of upgraded RAM, and three 27inch monitors.
The reason I built the Ryzen computer was this:
The main Dell computer case was too small for me to add a second GTX 1070 or 1080, and I couldn't add a second video card to the Dell motherboard since it had very limited PCIe capabilities. The case cooling was not even close to what I needed, I could barely fit the PS and GTX in there, and future expansion of any sort was a no-go.
Now, I certainly could have gone to a "professional" and said "Hey, take these three monitors, keyboard, mouse, 1 TB harddrive, 750watt power supply, 32GB of RAM, and GTX 1070 and give me a new computer".
Personally I think that would have been ridiculous. A waste of time, and a waste of money. Instead I drove to Micro Center, grabbed a board, a big case, and a CPU, and in the space of an afternoon I had transferred my existing stuff to the new case, and installed the MB and CPU. Used my now-degraded Dell to get an ISO, installed Windows and all my software, transferred my files to the new machine and I was pretty much done. It all went without a hitch.
The issue I posted was due to some chipset drivers that were one month out of date. Now, I could have paid a professional an extra few hundred bucks or whatever and maybe he would have known that they needed updating and it would have saved me some time. But the only problem those drivers caused was an annoying delay while I was rendering a scene and posting on this forum. A minor annoyance at best for maybe 20 minutes. And thanks to someone here I got that resolved very quickly, free of charge.
Now, should I have paid a professional for any of that? I've been building and upgrading computers since I first built a Heathkit Z89 (?) way back in the dark ages. Personally, I think I would be an idiot for paying someone to do something so easy.
There is more consistency in the quality of a well made, system (including the various phases). That experience does cost, but they do get it wrong.
It is possible to get a system of similar performance when doing it oneself; it can be done cheaper, but there are trade-offs. The main one is paying for the errors of forgetting or using insufficient or too much thermal paste; incorrectly calculating the power requirements for sustained use; poor overclocking (or indeed if the system should be at all); lack of attention to the marrying of components, and how they should be arrange within the case for best cooling - not what looks best. Putting in more fans, as opposed to ensuring that the flow and path is taken into consideration, as well as considering if one would benefit from positive or negative pressure on the cooling system. There are other aspects, but this covers a few.
Then when buying a new system, one has to filter all the crap and poor advice because a sales person is pushing what they need/want/earn more commission on; they lack the experience/knowledge of the type of build one is putting together - and worse, they either don't know they lack the knowledge, and worse still, don't care.
Never forget, businesses primary interest is profit. There are 'things' it needs to do to make a profit (such as customer care and quality), but profit is still the prime motivating factor; always worth remembering and using our knowledge of that as a bullshit meter.
As I noted, you had your reasons and everyone must weigh their own circumstances for their buying decisions. My comments are not about what choice you made. They are about the consequences of your choice.
"So you wait for months, and waste all kinds of time trying to figure out what's wrong, and debug, and download drivers, and search the internet, and so on. " "....And as you showed me, if the chipset driver doesn't work well with Windows to allow you to do other stuff on your computer while the GPU render is going on, and the system is pretty much unusable due to the delay, what's the real benefit? "
This is typical reaction from building your own without a lot of experience. It may make you feel it isn't worth it in the end. Everybody who does something themselves must face this cost/benefit threshhold.
Without a hitch? That's interesting... what's the name of this thread again.....? I'm glad your system is working better and I hope you dont face more surprises in the future but my original comment was in response to your "without a hitch" experience.
Wow. I don't think I've heard of someone more dedicated to building their own PC. In reading the specs of your proposed new computer, it's not surprising (in view of your objectives) why you came to your conclusions about the components. Building an average general purpose computer is a fairly simple process. Building an upper tier workstation requires much more expertise.
Have you ever used a Lenovo computer? We were forced to use their Laptops where I worked at some point. Absolutely horrible experience. Tons of useless custom Lenovo bloatware on their and generally slow as hell. So have to disagree with you too that prebuilt systems are somehow faster. Less prone to things going wrong? Probably, but you make it sound like choosing components for a PC is this huge engineering feat. It's really not. Get the right mainboard for the CPU you want, get the memory that is meant for it and stick in your choice of GPU. Google some to see if there are any problems reported, maybe the mainboard has known issues or needs a bios update but usually there are no such problems at all.
Game rigs are great for 3D by the way, unless maybe you do no GPU rendering. Otherwise the performance for games will pretty much translate to rendering speed and viewport performance in 3D applications.
You clearly misread my post and are speaking from a completely different viewpoint. The key word in my comments is "workstation". A workstation is for people who are serious about 3D You will not find bloatware in a Lenovo workstation. Building a properly performing workstation does require engineering. It isn't just about speed performance. It's about cooling and software/driver optimizations and a dozen other factors. And a gaming computer in place of a workstation? Only if you're just toying around. I or any professional workstation builder would never recommend a gaming PC to replace a workstation. A workstation isn't for everyone, but for those who need it, these are serious things to consider. Again, not at all what you are talking about. Apples and oranges.
Exactly. It's like that kid's game, concentration, I think was the name. Put the arrow in the arrow-shaped hole, and the circle in the circle-shaped hole. And for those of us GPU rendering, gaming rigs can absolutely be professional workstations.
This point seems moot now, since gaming rigs don't count or whatever, but in any event I had my dates wrong. The chipset driver updates were released in late April, and it seems Dell and HP first announced their Ryzen prebuilt system in early May. Seems at least possible, and probably likely, that the systems shipped with the updated chipset drivers. I'd incorrectly thought those systems were available in March. Sorry for the oversight.
Yeah, I'm talking about workstations. Gaming computers are another category.
Explain to me what a workstation does differently than anz old computer. I have worked with and on computers all my life and never did I apparently have the privilege of using a worksation. I guess I never did any professional work either.
Sorry, but you are incorrectly (and in my opinion, rudely, whether it's on purpose or not) assuming that I, the OP, @bluejaunte, and hundreds of others are not serious about 3D. Perhaps the intended tone is not coming through the right way in writing.
Xeon's, ECC RAM, and quadro cards do not a workstation make. My workstation is the place where I do my professional work.
I believe I already did, but I will elaborate:
1. Cooling. For an average computer, merely turning up the fan or adding another one to the case will suffice. For the average graphics workstation, this is almost never the case. Most professional environments have multiple computers and if every computer's fans are dialed up as to reach 30 or 40db, it would be an intolerably noisy working situation. Workstation airflow is carefully tuned to the components inside. This in itself is a science. My workstation is so quiet in a non-airconditioned office (not recommended), I can forget it is even on. Even when fully dialed up, it's sound dampening keeps noise at a minimum. This is especially important if someone is working in sound editing or composing. If I am just playing games, who cares?!? I'm probably wearing headphones or have the speakers blasting anyways.
2, Software driver optimization. This is one of the stronger arguments for a workstation over a gaming machine. Because games and 3ds max or Maya or Houdini are not the same. There are professional programs that rely on the optimizations that only a Quadro GPU can provide. If I am a professional colorist or compositor and I am using a game machine, I have missing colors. A gamer will say, "what missing colors?". The professional will just sigh and buy a workstation.
3. Ergonomics: If I am a 3D modeler or animator using a gaming rig and I want to take my work over to a contractor for final composite, I will face a problem. I can send it over the net (after I make sure the directory hiearchy carries over and other associated files). This takes time. I could put everything on a usb disk. Another time waster. What I couldn't do is just unplug my HD from the front of my PC (without even shutting down my system) and plug it into his PC (again, into the front without interfering with his work). Hot swapping hard drives is a standard feature on workstation. On a gaming PC... not so much.
4. If you lose a night's rendering due to a failed component, will it matter much? Will it cost you money or a client? If your answer is no, then obvious your 3D work on your computer is not that serious a matter. Can you go more than 1 day without your workstation? For a professional, this is unthinkable. Workstations are engineered with these strict tolerances in mind. There is 24 hour support and next day part replacement for workstation clients (If you bought a prebuilt). If I am forced to stop playing games for a few days or if my online connection gets dropped and my gaming character gets shot, I'm not going to lose any sleep. Companies understand that gaming machines aren't mission critical.
I could go on and on, but if you haven't gotten the point by now, maybe you never will. There is a marked difference between a gaming PC and a professional workstation. It may not be clear to you if you are just rendering a few stills on the weekend, but if your work is your bread and butter, sooner or later you will get burned by buying a gaming rig.
Why are you reading my words to mean that you are not serious about 3D???? My words are factual. A 3D workstation (please feel free to google the word) is for someone who is serious about 3D work. There is no need to add any more to that meaning. Are you saying that a work station is not for professionals who are serious about their work? There is no need to take this personally for I was making a factual remark about workstations, not about you.
Ok. I do have to ask though. How did you go from "this guy had a problem because he did DIY" (and all it took to fix was a driver update) to the requirements that some pro at WETA might have with 24h support and god knows how many millions of dollars spent on such things? I thought it was about "don't build your own stuff, buy prebuilt Dell or HP". Those are not really workstations by your own definition. They are merely prebuilt, not custom-built to specification of some billion-dollar VFX house. If you want it for normal single user CG work which is more and more about GPU rendering, you will get something very close to a game machine or it may even be sold as such because you want that fast GPU and not a Quadro that costs $5000.
Wanna take a guess at how many people who work in the CG industry have access to such uber highend workstations? The other 95% are just toying around? Surely you can see that sounds a bit offensive. As if anyone's professionalism, regardless fo line of work, is measured by how expensive his gear is.
No, I am saying that a workstation as you define it not necessary to be serious about 3D work. You would define my rig as a gaming rig, and yet I'm serious about my work. You said "A workstation is for people who are serious about 3D work," implying someone without your definition of a workstation is not serious. I don't have one (rather I don't use mine), so the implication is I'm not serious.
I continue to double check how I may be misinterpreting your tone, but things like "if you haven't gotten my point by now, maybe you never will," "I'll give you a clue: None," "You clearly misread my post..." or "apparently you are misunderstanding me or are a master builder," are making it difficult for me, and I think others, to read what I hope is your intended tone.
It seems you got everything I said wrong. My original post was basically, "this is normal for DIY installations". In fact it is true for all DIY stuff. Nothing right or wrong about it, it is what it is. I call it the DIY blues. i have sung the DIY blues many times. Nowhere did I state that everyone should buy a prebuilt workstation. Everyone has different circumstances, just like I would never say every car enthusiast should buy a Porsche or Ferrari. Secondly, when you have a chance, visit the HP or Dell website. There will be categories for different types of computers (laptops, gaming, workstations, etc..) There is a very good reason for these categories, I didn't make them up. When I use the term workstation, I am referring to this category. You asked the difference between a gaming and workstation computer. I told you. I can bet you that people who work in the CG industry have at least one of those. Why buy something that is more suited for another task? Why build something that isn't properly suited for what you are trying to do? A graphics workstation is purpose built for graphics work. A gaming machine is built for the purpose of playing games. Sometimes those purposes are at conflict. So which one do you expect a person who is serious about his profession to buy? This isn't about expense, it's about practicability. Why in the world would I buy (or build) a machine that is less practicle for what I do? It's about saving time and money. Because time is money.
For some reason, you guys are taking offense because of these obvious realities. Your choice of machine doesn't have any direct bearing on how serious you are (at least not necessarily). Everyone makes a choice depending on their circumstances and knowledge. But the purpose of a computer is much more tangible. A graphics workstation is designed for graphics professionals (not many people would spend so much cash for it if it were otherwise). You do not need to feel threatened by this true statement.
All views seem to have been thoroughly aired and the discussion is simply revisiting the same ground. Since the OP's issue has already been addressed the thread has been locked.