New Crystal Dragon Has Me Questioning Iray's Shader Capabilities in DS
Nyghtfall3D
Posts: 813
As an artist with a strong interest in PBR, I occasionally find myself examining side-by-side comparisons of different PBR engines. The only two I have any experience with are Iray and Luxrender. Whenever I look at such comparisons, I always notice something a bit... off... about the quality of the Iray shaders used in renders created with DS. It's difficult to describe, but ever since DAZ introduced us to Iray, there's been this nagging question growing in the back of my mind that constantly wonders if the version they licensed for DS may be missing some key functionality that's preventing us from rendering truly photorealistic art.
I just got an email advertising the new Crystal Dragon, and whatever shaders were created for the crystals look so unrealistic that they stood out like a sore thumb the moment I saw the first promo image. They look much more painterly than what I would expect from a PBR engine like Iray. Do a Google Image search for "luxrender crystals", and you'll see striking examples of the contrast between what Lux is capable of, and what the Crystal Dragon is embodied with.
I guess my question, then, is are the crystals on that dragon the most realistic Iray can simulate? If so, what's keeping Iray from reaching Lux's level of realism?
EDIT: Tell me these don't look like bits of the same type of plastic you'd expect to see used for a retractable toy lightsaber:
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Comments
I don't think the render used iray's full potential, maybe wanted to show easily acheivable results rather than full on caustic, refraction, architectural shaders
Iray is capable of >much< better crystal than that, I'm not sure they even used refraction there. I make a lot of jewelry so I render a lot of gems.
Very dark scene, but you get the idea.. I like starting with the flint glass shader from the nvidia examples for solid colored gems/crystals, it's simple and easy to adjust but looks really good.
It is not the engine. The shaders they chose for the crystals in Crystal Dragon are just awful IMO. If you notice for my promos, I replaced their crystal shaders with the Diamond shader and IMO it looks much better.
"What's keeping Iray from reaching Lux's level of realism", is (unfortunately), that there's no real "standard" among DAZ and its bunch of "Published Artists". Almost everyone does as he/she sees fit, in many cases without even any essential knowledge about PBR shading, what the various parameters ot the Iray Uber are there for and how to use them properly. And then an overblown glossiness f.e. will in most cases reduced by tweaking on the "Glossy Color" screw, instead of just increasing roughness or simply using the appropriate "Glossy Specular" value for that type of material.
Filters could be one reason, another, that maybe a wrong "Color Effect Mode" is set ("Scatter Only" instead of "Scatter & Transmit") and "Thin Walled" set to a timesaving "On" state.
NVIDIA's Material Definition Language — Handbook nicely shows what Iray is capable of... if a shader's creator has the slightest clue of what he/she's doing. Chapter 6 has a nice example for transparent materials like glass, etc.
I'm excited about all the dragon stuff today, but wondering if some of the promos were rushed. Some are great, others look a bit on the plastic side or...something. Can't put my finger on it, but yeah, something is a little off. Not trying to complain or nitpick. I spend a lot of time studying promos, and most are them are awesome. Today is a mixed bag.
I thought this one for Muscleman's Crystal Storm Poses was among today's best:
I'm the odd-man out. I want that cave very badly. The shape, dual entrances....
Crystals look post. I know they can't be, but they look like Ron's Brushes were used. In a good way, like alien structures and not glassy see-thru type formations.
There's some kind of dragon pose control scripty thing- great!
Luckily, for once, I seem to have grabbed a bundle at the right time. So I just realized I have the Dragon 3 pro bundle.
I know I went dragon shopping on one of those big discount promos....and I grabbed the dragon for the future.
But you know, Daz is heavy with these sales so I might need to wait. I-Bot nurse and my Arachnid starship are coming soon- I think.
I was going to say it may have something to do with no documentation when Daz included Iray so everyone, including PAs have had to experiment and learn, thus I'm sure there's still a lot we are missing out on even after all this time.
I thought they were poor; particularly the Black Dragon, which is more my thing.
I love dragons, and have not bought into Dragon 3, as I'm continually thinking Daz will release something new for Studio; sadly they haven't as yet.
This is not a defense of Daz Studio, nor an attack. It just is.
Iray and the the Iray MDL are just specification for using Nividia tech. The Studio implementation seems to work fine with no particular issues.
There's no manual. The MDL spec can give on an idea of what's up, but it doesn't tell you how Daz's Iray Uber is using that spec, or what the the settings mean.
The only way to know is to dig in and learn the hard way.
Now, consider that while an unbaised renderer is made to do photo real stuff as an end goal, PBR is not Photoreal, It's just abstracting physics as a basis to render. (I've built PBR toon shaders (not for Iray. I still haven't worked out how to toon with iray). So the Daz artist is doublely working without instruction and with a system that has a lot of range, seeking to do something with only "pleasing to thyne own eyes" as a metric. Unsurprisingly, people's final idea of "real" isn't always in agreement. I can't imagine this any different in Lux, Octane, or Renderman. I know it's not different in Cycles or Superfly (but I repeat myself).
I can pick up the Crystal Dragon for just a little over $10... even less if I use my coupon... but I'm just not excited about him. I actually don't like the crystals. I'd have been more impressed with a DAZ Dragon 4 that incorporates newer tech like muscle contraction, more realistic bending and Iray materials supporting the latest version of Iray.
Same here. I render a lot of jewelry and Iray actually does really good crystal/gem/glass. It's probably just the way they did the crystal shader more than Iray capabilities with refractive materials (which is good).
BTW Fisty, those earrings are gorgeous ;)
Laurie
Similar to Singular Blues' comments, we need to keep in mind that this is free software distributed with the sole purpose of selling you figures. If Daz3D could figure out a way to sell you the figures without the software, I'm sure they would. Since we are not paying for the software and they still have to support it, you can't expect too much in regards to documentation and so forth. And since this isn't really professional software, you are not going to see a lot of third party training either. This is what free gets you (and I admit it's a lot, all things considered). There is a lot of ways Daz3D could have gone with their resources, but this is the business model they chose. There are drawbacks with every choice and overall, I think they filled the niche well. Just as long as you don't expect the same support that the industry professionals receive. They pay a lot of money for that support.
I don't mind the crystal dragon shading, I'm sure you can manipulate it.
But I have the frost wyrm and it falls into that eyeballing of evaluating uniqueness plus how much I need another dragon.
I have the wyvern but the feathered dragon thing is distinct enough that I might get it sooner rather than later...
In that case, you can learn a lot by working through the MDL Specs, the Material Definition Language — Handbook and the "irayubermaterial.mdl" (which can be found in the ".\Program Files\DAZ 3D\DAZStudio4\shaders\iray\daz_3d" folder).
Although for a different pice of software, the handbook for the iray material plugin for 3ds Max can be also very helpful, since DAZ's Iray Uber borrows much from that.
There was even a time when DAZ Studio Pro wasn't free, and also a time when DAZ only sold figures without any software. Getting DS for free is that way for around 3 1/2 years now if I remember correctly. But even back in the days when one had to pay for the software, the documentation was... sparse, late and/or irregularly updated. So DS being free can't be the main problem for the lack of a proper documentation.
I didn't use Daz when it wasn't free, mainly because I thought it wasn't ready for primetime and because the awful stigma attached to using Daz. But now we have Genesis and Genesis characters require software (because Poser can't support it very well). I don't think Daz3d can sell Genesis characters profitably without Studio. But one thing I know for sure. Supporting free software is a headache. It's either a labor of love (Blender) or cutting corners and costs to make it profitable. Daz Studio looks less and less to me like a labor of love. We'll see about the new version.
I agree, they're definitely not the most realistic I've seen, neither when it comes to looks and shape (I once had a crystal workshop, so I've seen a lot of different types and variations of crystals and gemstones, both raw and polished). But maybe it's intentional, so they sort of match the dragon's texture and looks (I think they match quite well actually). Iray can indeed render crystals very well, if you know how to design them correctly, which some do:
https://www.daz3d.com/catalog/product/view/id/36261
Also, to be fair, not everyone WANTS a highly realistic look. Damned if you do, etc.
I admit I just assumed that was how crystals growing out of a dragon looked.Presumably bodily fluids and scratches from daily life would make them murky!
Actually, looking at the promos more closely... I don't really get the complaints. I think the rust skin looks pretty awesome, and the crystals... enh, different strokes.
If I had the cash right now I'd probably pick it up. Unfortunately I'm sure it'll be out of sale when I do have cash. Heh. Always the way!
I'm actually kind of curious what the dragon skins look like without the crystals. Anyone care to test it?
While I do understand that crystals can be dazzling and beautiful and shiny, I have also seen plenty of crystal that's been scratched, nicked, covered in dust or dirt that look a lot like the ones on the dragon. I'm fairly certain that its probably realistic for a dragon who has these attached to his body, that just by everyday living, they would be very beat up. I don't think dragons polish there crystal spikes daily... on the other hand, its relatively easy to switch out shaders to something different if you want to.
Aaaand I succumbed to the lure. Really hope some payments come in soon...
LOL I hate that.
I was so darn determined to pay off my credit card before buying anything else... Then Daz hit me with that V8 special...
Yes, I am also curious about the dragon IRay skins without the crystals. How hard is that to manage and what does it look like?
LOL, me too! Time to do some testing! And if I was a dragon with crystals, I might polish them, at least on special occasions!
I'm rendering a dragon without crystals, and the skin looks fine without them -- which greatly expands the usefulness of this item.
Though the skins look a little weird in a few places with a morph where there are large head horns; that's to be expected when mixing very extensive morphs with skins not designed for them.
Here's a crystal-less crystal dragon with some HFS shapes and such.
You'll note that the big two horns look weirdly undetailed... that's the issue with matching skins with different morphs. But still pretty darn cool, if you ask me.
Totally with you, on that. If you wanna understand, you have to look where you can.
I just figure, lacking any real framework, most artists are going to wing it to a certain degree. So many things to do, so little time, as it were. They are going to settle on "works for me," over finding the consensus of realism.
I figure some unbaised render engine packages probably do a better "out of the box" job with realism (certainly the next Blender Cycles with the Principled BSDF is a stab at that). I just haven't noted iRay as being that twitchy, compared to any other package. Also, I figure, unless there's a Daz iRay standards group out there, everyone is going to end up in slightly different places as to what's real. I kinda agree that weathered crystal makes more sense, but having seen the stuff now and again, I'm not sure that is what weathered would look like. OTOH, I've never seen a raw diamond. I also take into account the difference between real and photo real. Cameras don't have the dynamic range of the human eye. Renderers either have much less or way more range than the human eye (depends on the color management. From what I've seen, I'm not sure where iRay is on this. I think more, but you have to render to canvas to see it, or something. Anyway, is realism photoreal as in photograph or photreal as in potons on eyeballs? Moving goalposts and such.
I'm babbling. Huh. Well, anyway, I just mean, I've looked at 3 unbiased renders, myself, and looked the results of a few more. And the one thing that everyone agrees on across all of them is that no one agrees on exactly what realistic is. It seems to be a "Know it when you see it proposition." IRay doesn't seem to be crippled compared to any others. Just a bit harder to work with owing to a lack of docs.
it's still sitting in my cart, I do not render the many dragons I have and all the draggy 3 addons I have so hesitant been trying to save money but, ...... it's still sitting in my cart.....