Normal Maps With All Models Please

Artists, please provide real normal maps with all models please, grey scaled bump maps are not good enough for export of daz models for games developers.

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  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 13,679

    Also a REALLY good idea for Iray stuff. Normals make a huge impact in the detail and texture, more reliably than just about anything else.

  • ValandarValandar Posts: 1,417

    Artists, please provide real normal maps with all models please, grey scaled bump maps are not good enough for export of daz models for games developers.

    Some of us do not have a game dev license currently available... And sorry, Timmins, but I've had serious problems with normal maps in DS - a prop loaded in its default position looks nice, but rotate or turn it, and I've had normals invert on me.

  • PixolygonPixolygon Posts: 5,989
    edited May 2017

    @Valandar Your normals are probably flipped for iray usage. Take the normal map into Photoshop and invert the green channel only. Not all apps handle normals the same, some use directx (y-positive), while others use opengl (y-negative).

    Post edited by Pixolygon on
  • StonemasonStonemason Posts: 950
    that behaviour Val mentions sounds like a world space normal map is being used.use tangent space in opengl format and you should be okay
  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 31,012

    Artists, please provide real normal maps with all models please, grey scaled bump maps are not good enough for export of daz models for games developers.

    We assume that you know about the need for the purchase of Game dev license/s for the Daz 3d store products you wish to use in your games.  You need one License for the Daz Original products and liveses (if available) for products of each PA whose products you are using.  If the PA does not offer a Game dev license then it probably means that the PA in question does not wish his/her products to be used in games

  • Midnight_storiesMidnight_stories Posts: 3,888
    Valandar said:

    Artists, please provide real normal maps with all models please, grey scaled bump maps are not good enough for export of daz models for games developers.

    Some of us do not have a game dev license currently available... And sorry, Timmins, but I've had serious problems with normal maps in DS - a prop loaded in its default position looks nice, but rotate or turn it, and I've had normals invert on me.

    Val you're not stacking you're UVs are you ? as that's the first thing that goes wrong, E.g you do some boots mirror them across and leave the UVs stacked on top of each other to save space, you have to mirror the UVs as well or they turn out in reverse !

  • ValandarValandar Posts: 1,417
    Valandar said:

    Artists, please provide real normal maps with all models please, grey scaled bump maps are not good enough for export of daz models for games developers.

    Some of us do not have a game dev license currently available... And sorry, Timmins, but I've had serious problems with normal maps in DS - a prop loaded in its default position looks nice, but rotate or turn it, and I've had normals invert on me.

    Val you're not stacking you're UVs are you ? as that's the first thing that goes wrong, E.g you do some boots mirror them across and leave the UVs stacked on top of each other to save space, you have to mirror the UVs as well or they turn out in reverse !

    Nope. As an example, the touchstone in my Moneylender set was a stone I had originally done as a Normal Map. The map behaved as I described, so I replaced it with a bump map, instead.

  • TotteTotte Posts: 10,685

    I try to use Normalmaps everywhere but there is quite a difference in how normal maps are interpreted in strength between 3DL and Iray. I've done numnerous tests and it looks like Iray used the "default strength", for example a NormalMap created with SubstancePainter or FilterForge looks the same in Iray renders as it does in the preview from those applications, while in 3Delight it would need to he lowered by 50% for the same look. 

    I haven't figured out any good way to handle this. 

    Another issue is that exporting to OBJ doesn't include normal maps so I also have bump/height maps on most models, but the downside is increased memory usage in Iray. I might create a script that drops heights if there is a normalmap connected to that surface, but I have other scripts in the pipe to write first. One thing to remember is that both 3DL and Iray uses OpenGL Normal Maps and not DirectX Normal Maps (as someone pointed out, inverted green channel). 

     

  • cridgitcridgit Posts: 992
    edited May 2017

    Artists, please provide real normal maps with all models please, grey scaled bump maps are not good enough for export of daz models for games developers.

    I provided a table some years ago showcasing various products/PA's that were not meeting DAZ's own quality standards (although these were obviously not being picked up by QA). My favourites: e.g. desaturated diffuse maps being sold as bump maps or displacement maps (the old inverted nipple joke), small/low res texture maps simply being scaled up to 4000x4000 then sold as a hi-res 4000 texture map, or worst of all spec/bump/displacement maps that didn't match the diffuse texture (criminal). There were also cases where some PA's would resell the same diffuse texture with multiple characters, so while you're paying for 2 characters you're only getting 1 skin texture plus 2 sets of morphs and 2 sets of eyes/makeup. It is no surprise the same practices have shifted to normal maps and will continue until either DAZ QA steps up or the buyers vote with their feet.

    Unfortunately that comparions was removed which effectively shut down the discussion on community expectations vs certain PA's expectations on character texture quality/price. These days I know who sells quality characters and I stick to them. I do not support PA's who incorrectly market the product and when I do buy characters the first thing I do is perform the above checks (. If I the information on the product's store page is incorrect I simply return the product. It doesn't help to complain to DAZ about this particular topic because I don't think ANYBODY works in QA anymore. Or certainly not in QA on metadata, QA on character textures, QA on Connect/DIM packaging and installation, or QA on products being spammed with store shortcuts.

    For reference, good quality/value products offer 4000x4000 maps with a file size > 6MB (some even go up to 10 or 13 MB). I have products purchased here at DAZ with a 4000 map only 600K - that is an embarassingly small texture scaled up to 4000 and it looks like a dog's breakfast. Good quality products also offer REAL normal maps as you point out, or at least REAL bump and displacement maps, not inverted desaturated diffuse maps. Before Iray spec maps were also useful, and these days I also prefer eye colours without painted-on reflections because Iray makes real eye reflections.

    EDIT: added my little character analysis/comparison engine in Excel. I removed PA/product names as this is simply to show you an example of how you can compare your characters.

    Picture1.jpg
    1125 x 588 - 214K
    Post edited by cridgit on
  • JimbowJimbow Posts: 556

    I'd like to add that for shader presets it would be useful if there were versions with the textures rotated 90degrees. It's easy to do it for colour and bump maps even in the most basic Windows picture viewer, but for normal maps it's a whole different pain in the neck, especially when no bump version is offered as an alternative.

  • HavosHavos Posts: 3,976
    Jimbow said:

    I'd like to add that for shader presets it would be useful if there were versions with the textures rotated 90degrees. It's easy to do it for colour and bump maps even in the most basic Windows picture viewer, but for normal maps it's a whole different pain in the neck, especially when no bump version is offered as an alternative.

    What would be even better would be if DS was enhanced to allow you to rotate the textures by 90% (ie swap X and Y in the UV map). This is possible in Poser. That way we would not need all these extra maps. I find this is particularly useful for wood textures, where it is important that the grain is going in the logical direction.

  • Twilight76Twilight76 Posts: 228
    edited May 2017
    cridgit said:

    Artists, please provide real normal maps with all models please, grey scaled bump maps are not good enough for export of daz models for games developers.

    I provided a table some years ago showcasing various products/PA's that were not meeting DAZ's own quality standards (although these were obviously not being picked up by QA). My favourites: e.g. desaturated diffuse maps being sold as bump maps or displacement maps (the old inverted nipple joke), small/low res texture maps simply being scaled up to 4000x4000 then sold as a hi-res 4000 texture map, or worst of all spec/bump/displacement maps that didn't match the diffuse texture (criminal). There were also cases where some PA's would resell the same diffuse texture with multiple characters, so while you're paying for 2 characters you're only getting 1 skin texture plus 2 sets of morphs and 2 sets of eyes/makeup. It is no surprise the same practices have shifted to normal maps and will continue until either DAZ QA steps up or the buyers vote with their feet.

    Unfortunately that comparions was removed which effectively shut down the discussion on community expectations vs certain PA's expectations on character texture quality/price. These days I know who sells quality characters and I stick to them. I do not support PA's who incorrectly market the product and when I do buy characters the first thing I do is perform the above checks (. If I the information on the product's store page is incorrect I simply return the product. It doesn't help to complain to DAZ about this particular topic because I don't think ANYBODY works in QA anymore. Or certainly not in QA on metadata, QA on character textures, QA on Connect/DIM packaging and installation, or QA on products being spammed with store shortcuts.

    For reference, good quality/value products offer 4000x4000 maps with a file size > 6MB (some even go up to 10 or 13 MB). I have products purchased here at DAZ with a 4000 map only 600K - that is an embarassingly small texture scaled up to 4000 and it looks like a dog's breakfast. Good quality products also offer REAL normal maps as you point out, or at least REAL bump and displacement maps, not inverted desaturated diffuse maps. Before Iray spec maps were also useful, and these days I also prefer eye colours without painted-on reflections because Iray makes real eye reflections.

    EDIT: added my little character analysis/comparison engine in Excel. I removed PA/product names as this is simply to show you an example of how you can compare your characters.

    thx for the infos.
    My installed Charcters at the moment are in a range from 0,8 MB to 7 MB. (Texture Size)

    Surprisingly DAZ has a very great Range for Texture Size (Torso Map)
    From 13 Characters (DAZ 7 Generation) lowest 1,24 MB to higest 6,39 MB

    Post edited by Twilight76 on
  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 13,679

    Maps don't have to be that large if they are jpgs; a lot of vendors use jpgs, which is superior to keep the texture load from tripping GPU -> CPU.

     

  • Maps don't have to be that large if they are jpgs; a lot of vendors use jpgs, which is superior to keep the texture load from tripping GPU -> CPU.

     

    Not to mention that for many users, 4k textures and normal maps are overkill for what they are.doing with the content.

  • JimbowJimbow Posts: 556
    Havos said:
    What would be even better would be if DS was enhanced to allow you to rotate the textures by 90% (ie swap X and Y in the UV map). This is possible in Poser. That way we would not need all these extra maps. I find this is particularly useful for wood textures, where it is important that the grain is going in the logical direction.

    I agree with colour maps, but normalmaps won't work if they're rotated 90 degrees. But it was wood grain that I was particularly thinking of, like yoruself.

  • JimbowJimbow Posts: 556

    Maps don't have to be that large if they are jpgs; a lot of vendors use jpgs, which is superior to keep the texture load from tripping GPU -> CPU.

     

    Not to mention that for many users, 4k textures and normal maps are overkill for what they are.doing with the content.

    It's my understanding that Iray doesn't use jpegs, it converts all image files to its own raw formats, like Mental Ray does (.ct format, etc), at the render stage. A lot of the time it spends before a render actually starts showing is the conversion and building the shaders. I'm fairly sure (based on observation) that the more compressed an image is the longer it takes for iray to decompress it, so I try to use TGA or BMP when I make my own textures.

  • TaozTaoz Posts: 6,998
    edited May 2017

    Maps don't have to be that large if they are jpgs; a lot of vendors use jpgs, which is superior to keep the texture load from tripping GPU -> CPU.

     

    Not to mention that for many users, 4k textures and normal maps are overkill for what they are.doing with the content.

    Still, no need to go for the lowest common denominator. An HQ texture will not make a bad render worse, but an LQ texture may spoil an otherwise good render. And you can always reduce the size/quality, but you can never improve it if it's poor by default.

    I bought a really good desert environment a couple of years ago but am really disappointed with the sky dome which as such looks great but has some annoying compression artifacts which just spoils any render I make with it.    

    Post edited by Taoz on
  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 13,679

    Jimbow: Doing a test with png vs. jpg, the same textures converted to jpg at 85% seem to render at ... exactly the same speed.

    I'll have to look at the verbose texture info to see if that's making a difference.

     

  • HavosHavos Posts: 3,976
    edited May 2017
    Taoz said:

    Maps don't have to be that large if they are jpgs; a lot of vendors use jpgs, which is superior to keep the texture load from tripping GPU -> CPU.

     

    Not to mention that for many users, 4k textures and normal maps are overkill for what they are.doing with the content.

    Still, no need to go for the lowest common denominator. An HQ texture will not make a bad render worse, but an LQ texture may spoil an otherwise good render. And you can always reduce the size/quality, but you can never improve it if it's poor by default.

    I bought a really good desert environment a couple of years ago but am really disappointed with the sky dome which as such looks great but has some annoying compression artifacts which just spoils any render I make with it.    

    I agree with this, and for any scene it is hard for the PA to know exactly how it will be used. I have done close ups of some scenes and low res textures look particularly bad in iRay, where they generate an ugly pattern over the surface. I fix this by tiling the texture, but this is not always possible and/or looks incorrect when it is possible. With some characters the neck looks fine where it is covered by the head texture, but looks ugly and stretched at the part covered by the body texture (if the render is a close up including the neck).

    Post edited by Havos on
  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 13,679

    Havos: It's a big reason I started poking at progressive shaders. There are some big limits to progressive and things it doesn't do particularly well, but it REALLY helps fill stuff without hitting weird artifacts or resolution problems.

    Sometimes I just find it worth going for 'this doesn't look quite as cool but I'm not going nuts trying to compensate for the problems'

     

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 13,679

    Test test yeah, I'm full of nonsense. No point converting to jpg, the internal texture load is negligably different (went from 8 giB to 7.9 giB. )

     

  • Havos said:
    Taoz said:

    Maps don't have to be that large if they are jpgs; a lot of vendors use jpgs, which is superior to keep the texture load from tripping GPU -> CPU.

     

    Not to mention that for many users, 4k textures and normal maps are overkill for what they are.doing with the content.

    Still, no need to go for the lowest common denominator. An HQ texture will not make a bad render worse, but an LQ texture may spoil an otherwise good render. And you can always reduce the size/quality, but you can never improve it if it's poor by default.

    I bought a really good desert environment a couple of years ago but am really disappointed with the sky dome which as such looks great but has some annoying compression artifacts which just spoils any render I make with it.    

    I agree with this, and for any scene it is hard for the PA to know exactly how it will be used. I have done close ups of some scenes and low res textures look particularly bad in iRay, where they generate an ugly pattern over the surface. I fix this by tiling the texture, but this is not always possible and/or looks incorrect when it is possible. With some characters the neck looks fine where it is covered by the head texture, but looks ugly and stretched at the part covered by the body texture (if the render is a close up including the neck).

    I also agree it's better for the PA to include high resolution textures and for the buyer to reduce them, but as has become evident, not all buyers agree that it's their responsibility to modify the included textures and want the PA to provide more options for them to choose from.

  • OnlyLuvsCatzOnlyLuvsCatz Posts: 22,358

    I am suprised you cannot rotate textures straight off but I suspect a shader function brick could.

    to avoid obvious repeats you really need at least 3 textures and some sort of random function that drives the bricks how they get blended

    I know how to do this in Carrara but am pretty certain shadermixer can do it too even the iray MDL bricks

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 13,679

    Well, you can rotate with LIE.

    And there is a way to rotate in shader mixer, but the problem there is that once you use shader mixer the shader runs much more slowly. :/ (It isn't optimized like the regular shaders)

     

  • JimbowJimbow Posts: 556

    Jimbow: Doing a test with png vs. jpg, the same textures converted to jpg at 85% seem to render at ... exactly the same speed.

     

    I'd expect that as Iray converts the textures. As an analogy, when I was working with Mental Ray every day (and iray is its baby sister to a large degree), if I had a scene with stacks of large textures I'd sometimes batch convert them to .ct format, which could save me tons of time with the preload.

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 13,679
    edited May 2017

    Yeah, Jimbow, I tested it after your previous comment and yep, you're totally right. So, um, yeah, you saved me a lot of time and effort chasing an unfounded bright idea. ;)

    So back to my previous thoughts on optimizing for Iray, which is use as few maps as possible and stick in procedurals when you are close to limits.

    I should also tinker some more with procedurals; I'm thinking stuff more fine-tuned for specific goals might be a good idea, like a specific 'ocean with foam' shader and whatnot.

     

    Post edited by Oso3D on
  • OnlyLuvsCatzOnlyLuvsCatz Posts: 22,358

    I loaded the iray uber shader into shadermixer

    saw the mass of bricks and cords

    let out a small scream

    and closed it surprise

  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 8,558

    Maps don't have to be that large if they are jpgs; a lot of vendors use jpgs, which is superior to keep the texture load from tripping GPU -> CPU.

     

    Hmm my understanding is that the data gets decompressed into memory - presuming the image contains the data in the first place.

     

     

    cridgit said:

    Artists, please provide real normal maps with all models please, grey scaled bump maps are not good enough for export of daz models for games developers.

    I provided a table some years ago showcasing various products/PA's that were not meeting DAZ's own quality standards (although these were obviously not being picked up by QA). My favourites: e.g. desaturated diffuse maps being sold as bump maps or displacement maps (the old inverted nipple joke), small/low res texture maps simply being scaled up to 4000x4000 then sold as a hi-res 4000 texture map, or worst of all spec/bump/displacement maps that didn't match the diffuse texture (criminal). There were also cases where some PA's would resell the same diffuse texture with multiple characters, so while you're paying for 2 characters you're only getting 1 skin texture plus 2 sets of morphs and 2 sets of eyes/makeup. It is no surprise the same practices have shifted to normal maps and will continue until either DAZ QA steps up or the buyers vote with their feet.

    Unfortunately that comparions was removed which effectively shut down the discussion on community expectations vs certain PA's expectations on character texture quality/price. These days I know who sells quality characters and I stick to them. I do not support PA's who incorrectly market the product and when I do buy characters the first thing I do is perform the above checks (. If I the information on the product's store page is incorrect I simply return the product. It doesn't help to complain to DAZ about this particular topic because I don't think ANYBODY works in QA anymore. Or certainly not in QA on metadata, QA on character textures, QA on Connect/DIM packaging and installation, or QA on products being spammed with store shortcuts.

    For reference, good quality/value products offer 4000x4000 maps with a file size > 6MB (some even go up to 10 or 13 MB). I have products purchased here at DAZ with a 4000 map only 600K - that is an embarassingly small texture scaled up to 4000 and it looks like a dog's breakfast. Good quality products also offer REAL normal maps as you point out, or at least REAL bump and displacement maps, not inverted desaturated diffuse maps. Before Iray spec maps were also useful, and these days I also prefer eye colours without painted-on reflections because Iray makes real eye reflections.

    EDIT: added my little character analysis/comparison engine in Excel. I removed PA/product names as this is simply to show you an example of how you can compare your characters.

    I've returned a number of characters for similar reasons; As an example, I object to buying multiple copies of merchant resource textures with a few moles in different places; I can do that myself - and do! I also do other enhancements too.

    I've returned them when the textures are mirrored too, another aspect I find annoying. I didn't used to, but now the much rarer times I buy characters, is check out the textures.

  • IgnisSerpentusIgnisSerpentus Posts: 2,314
    edited May 2017

    Here's the thing. Content on here isnt really marketed as being "game ready" Sure, some of us have gaming licenses... but that just allows you to use it in a game. It doesnt ensure that its been reworked to be game ready.

    While I dont think the OP is too much to ask for, at the same time, I can see why some may not be including normal maps. Me personally, Ive futzed with them, and I just dont get the same look and feel that I want, as I do with bump/displ. To me, they're a waste of my time... esp since Im not making game ready content at this point in time (and in all honestly, if I were to do that... all meshes would have to be decimated to be lower poly, with lower texture resolutions in addition to having normal maps... which would mean... a diff pack entirely, and a different pricetag to boot)

    Post edited by IgnisSerpentus on
  • TotteTotte Posts: 10,685

    Jimbow: Doing a test with png vs. jpg, the same textures converted to jpg at 85% seem to render at ... exactly the same speed.

    I'll have to look at the verbose texture info to see if that's making a difference.

     

    Texturemap are often converted to a native file format for the render engine, where png will use more memory but probably render at the same speed.

     

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