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KK I am still happily working in 3Delight not Iray ,not real interested in getting super realistic ,enjoy toony stuff ,plus the majority of what I'm doing is making samples or models for things I want to create in clay or wool ......other then that I occasional create poses ,or the odd toony textures .....if i had my way I'd probably still be using DAZ 3, if the Genesis versions would work in it .so DAZ is relaxation for me .and as long as I don't fall asleep waiting for a scene to load or a figure ,or for the scene to render with out taking an hour to optimize the images ..... I'll be very happy
and as far as Windows 10 Home ,pfsssst I don't actually want it ,all I've ever know is Vista and dispite other people's opinion about it not being good or what ever I like it ,I understand it and if I had my way I'd still keep using it .....but with it no longer being updated I'm being forced to move on .......I think my daughter sprained a rib laughing at me whining about this ...
HP is having sales so things go in and out of sale. The model is still there, but it may not link up to that precise webpage since that was a sale page. One thing I've noticed about HP, they change their sales pages without warning. Grrr... Last year, I was all set to pull the trigger on a convertible laptop for traveling, literally filling out the order info when the model came off sale, the sale page vanished, and so did the discount. Again, grrr...
For our thread starter, it seems that an out of the box solution would be best. The issue will be finding him or her one that is not only inexpensive yet capable, but as free of proprietary components as possible so as to allow a decent upgrade path going forward.
Bob
1) Hyper-threading - well, another business on both NewEgg and Amazon lists false specifications for the Intel Core i5 7400 or maybe the Intel site is wrong...would be no surprise there either...
https://www.amazon.com/Intel-BX80677I57500-Core-Desktop-Processors/dp/B01MZZJ1P0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1491495663&sr=8-1&keywords=Intel+Core+i5-7400
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819117731&cm_re=i5_7400-_-19-117-731-_-Product
https://ark.intel.com/products/97147/Intel-Core-i5-7400-Processor-6M-Cache-up-to-3_50-GHz
So, it's been a very, very long time since I saw even a single core Intel processor, and even the very old entry level 5 year old dual core i5 processor on my laptop does hyper-threading. Intel's web site is probably wrong. I think you have to buy celeron processors to find a modern Intel processor that doesn't hyperthread. One need not buy a Xeon processor to afford fast hyperthreading cpu cores.
2) Dual Core vs Quad Core memory - well, it comes with DDR4 memory which has faster throughput and lower energy usage so some of that advantage is gone that you talk about and a key thing you should note here is this computer has 2 M.2 slots which likely in less than 5 years can serve the purpose of serving as RAM with Intel's new type of flexible SSD memory to say nothing of the PCI Express x 1 slot that likely will have the same adapted technology available for it too.
3) I mentioned that already but that is why you are getting a completely modern PC sans monitor for $429. nVidia card and possible power supply added in is about the price range of the OP. Installing a new PS is almost as easy as installing a new video card and costs about $50. However with the lower energy requirements for the newest nVidia video cards and this computer's own components it is not likely the user will need a new power supply when they add the newest tech nVidia. However I already recommened that to contact Asus support directly. I would add the contacting nVidia support too would be a good ideal. I'm not talking building your own PC here simply upgrading or adding a couple of components here and there if the OP doesn't want to be faced with having spent $700 and have an antiquated PC again in only 2 years.
4) Desktop Reviews well that can only review it for what they use it for. How many top end over-price gaming PC reviews do you see mention DAZ Studio or 3D modeling in their reviews?
5) I respectfully disagree with you evaluational as the refurbed PC already underperforms the Acer and is already using EOLed HW technology and is overpriced. If the user was willing or able to spend an extra $1000 then they could buy a modern motherboard that allows for dual video cards and 64GB RAM but otherwise practically speaking the Acer linked is by far the better value for the next 10 years in need be and next 5 years for certain and is as upgradable as their budget allows.
Anyway, they've made up their mind and I will keep occasionally looking for a better deal than the Acer but that will be hard to beat. I'm hoping the new Ryzens will be entry level competitive pricewise by fall but who knows. 16 threads for $450. Wow! But I'll take 8 threads for $430 ver 16 for $1000. When you price the threads that way the Ryzens aren't saving any money over the Intel threads cost which is the primary marketing claim the AMD makes for these Ryzen CPUs.
I think the HP Envy they chose is very pretty but for the price they paid I would have bought a Ryzen 7 PC from CyberPC that comes with a better nVidea card with 4GB RAM and they would have 8 cores and 16 CPU threads too! Wow!
Have fun with your HP Envy.
...Carrie68 did ask me about my evaluation of the HP Envy and I gave it.
Now that I know she (hope I am right) is primarily interested in 3DL and not Iray, true a "powerhouse" machine with a high memory GPU is not required. However, rendering in 3DL with Uberenvironment and/or any effects like fog, reflectivity, translucency, and motion blur is very CPU as well as memory intensive and therefore will be very slow with only 4 processor threads and 12 GB of unmatched single channel memory. Also GPU memory does affect viewport performance, the more the less sluggish it is when building larger scenes.
When I built my system 3DL (and Luxrender through Reality or Luxus) was all we had. Even though it was 64 bit with 8 procesor threads and 12 GB tri channel memory I rarely used UE due to the heavy demand it placed on the CPU (ran at higher temps than standard 3DL or even Iray) and was still very slow.
as to the i5 7400/7500, I checked several reviews and neither have hyperthreading like the i7 does so the Intel site is indeed correct 4 cores = 4 processor threads like the old Core2 Quads).
True, most sites that review computers for gaming just benchmark for the popular games that are out. It is very difficult to find a review that deals with 3D rendering and when one does, bench tests are usually performed with the high end software like 3DS Max, Modo, and Maya. We hobbyists/enthusiasts are an ignored sector as we are too niche so basically we have to do the evaluating ourselves. That said, an off the shelf gaming computer is for the most part more suitable for 3D work than a general purpose one as graphics and high performance are a key component of the game experience.
...for the same price as the HP Envy she linked to, here's one system I found with an 8 core 3.5 GHz AMD CPU, 16 GB DDR3 1600 memory, a 2 TB HDD and a 4 GB GTX 1050 Ti (if she is primarily rendering in 3DL there really Isn't much advantage to DDR4).
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883227699
It is also expandable to 32 GB should the need ever arise.
...now for my own purposes, one of those refurbished workstations would be a better value than what I could afford to pay for SOTA hardware.
The "cheapest" Haswell Xeon I can find is about 700$ for 8 cores 16 threads at 2.4Ghz. For a little more I can get two Sandy Bridge 8 core (16 thread) 2.9GHz (turbo 3.8 GHz) Xeons giving me a total of 32 CPU threads. As I also render in Carrara the more CPU horsepower the better. For Iray CPU randering the same.
Going the i7 route I'd be looking at over 1,000$ for a 3.2 GHz Broadwell 8 core (16 thread) CPU (most likely I'd have to "step down" to the 6 core/12 thread 3.6 GHz CPU at 600$). Why stop at Broadwell? First, it uses the LGA 2011-V3 socket that supports quad channel memory. Second I can still use W7 Pro whereas Kaby Lake locks me into W10 and only dual channel memory as it uses the LGA 1150 socket.
Next is the memory 64 GB of DDR4 2400 (minimum) would be about 460$ so with the 8 core i7 we are already looking at about 1,500$ just for the memory and CPU alone. Need an MB so about 300$ for an X99 MB that supports up to 128 GB of memory and DDR4 2400 (without overclocking). Next there are the drives, which I would fo with a 500 GB (Boot/Application) + a 1 TB (Library/Runtime) SSDs and at least 1 2 TB HDD for storage. OK that's probably around 600$ there so I'm up to 2,100$ and still don't have a PSU or GPU Of course when it comes to PSUs I don't scrimp, especially if I am going to get a high memory GPU, so at least 1,000W for about 200$ OK now the GPUs, OK my scenes get kind fo big so a 1080 Ti would not be a bad idea, that's another 700$ (unless Nvidia upgrades their Titan X to 16 GB at the same 1,200$ price). So all totaled we have 3,500$/4000$ with the Titan X (which includes an OEM of W7 Pro).
OK now for less than that I could build a dual Sandy Bridge 8 core 2.9 GHz Xeon system with 128 GB quad channel DDR3 1600 memory the same drive setup with a 1050 Ti just to drive the displays and save about 1,200$. Of course this is primarily a rendering system and I'd use my current one (with a couple upgrades like 24 GB memory and maybe a 1060 6 GB for proof rendering) for building scenes. This way if a render job takes several hours my work system is not tied up.
Well it looks like there is actually Intel 4 core CPUs that don't multithread after I did a bit more research although personally I've made up my mind to buy a Ryzen 7 1800x and the better of the nVidia GTX 1080ti or this new AMD Vega video card coming out.
Anyway, 16 CPU cores and 32GB compared with my 4 CPU cores and 16 GB will make CPU renders of big scenes that won't fit in video card RAM in about 1/4 prior time they used to and that is beginning to make CPU only renders reasonble to wait through (since I will keep my old laptop).
There is now a new 12 teraflop nVidia Titan XP with 12GB RAM and Windows 10 Creators Update was released yesterday for 'early adoptors'.
44 and built my own too. Bought the motherbaord used, 2 gig GPU but put a big power supply in for later upgrade, and 16 gig ram, but it can hold 32gig - I made it for gaming, but I'm going to upgrade it next month and put the 32 gig of ram in along with a geforce 1040, because render times take way too long. :)
...the upgraded Titan X is still a bad deal as we need VRAM not compute power since most of us do not run scientific modelling simulations. For us, the 700$ 1080Ti makes much more sense.
...and until MS relaxes their position on updating and returns the process to where it was with W7 before October 1st, 2016, W10 is a "no go".
The i5 is 4 core 4 threads. Hyperthreading was reserved to i7 or Xeon. You seem to mismatch hyperthreading and multicore
Only the fear of Ryzen is making Intel change its policy.
https://www.techpowerup.com/230422/amds-upcoming-ryzen-launch-to-prompt-reshuffle-of-intels-cpu-line-up
Have a look at the graphs http://www.corsair.com/en-us/blog/2015/september/ddr3_vs_ddr4_generational
Dual channel 2400 Mhz DDR4 doesn't get any advantage over Quad Channel memory DDR3. You must use higher frequency memory in dual channel to surpass DDR3 Quad channel
I guess you're talking about Optane flash memory. For that you need a 2280 M2 Slot, a Kaby lake and a 200 serie Intel Chipset. Won't work with the Acer H110 motherboard.
Source : http://www.anandtech.com/show/11227/intel-launches-optane-memory-m2-cache-ssds-for-client-market
Or you may be talking about something that is not really for consumer's purse and doesn't seem to be a good memory replacement http://www.anandtech.com/show/11208/intel-introduces-optane-ssd-dc-p4800x-with-3d-xpoint-memory
And really I don't see what is extraordinary to have M.2 port on the motherboard. You just need some PCIe 4x slot and buy appropriate addin card and you're good to go https://www.amazon.co.uk/PCI-E-Slot-Adapter-Converter-Card/dp/B01NAV0XHX/ref=sr_1_4?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1491641785&sr=1-4&keywords=m.2+adapter
Considering that some SSD Speed could saturate PCIe 8x ports I doubt it will come to PCIe 1x. That would be a total waste.
My POV on that is that any PC you buy is already antiquated. If you want to consider long term buying, then expandability is the key. There is not even a match here. The Acer has only 16 PCIe lanes and one PCIe x16 port. The Z420 coupled with the Xeon gives 40 PCIe lanes and has 2 PCI Express Gen3 x16 mechanical/electrical; 1 PCI Express Gen3 x8 mechanical/electrical; 1 PCI Express Gen2 x8 mechanical/x4 electrical;1 PCI Express Gen2 x4 mechanical/x1 electrical; 1 Legacy PCI
Not something you have in any cheap PCs and with that you have a good base for a quad GPU rendering station
Add to that the 64 GB memory support and the fact that you can buy a cheap 8 cores/16 threads Xeon 2770 for around 100$, you're pretty much OK if you want to upgrade the workstation to something strong enough for any serious work in the future
The only drawback of the Z420 is the proprietary 600W PSU
The Acer PSU may at best handle the GTX 1080 but I wouldn't bet it could sustain adequate power on long period without problem
There are lots of CPU bench everywhere http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Xeon-E5-1620-0-vs-Intel-Core-i5-7400/m2930vs3886
In 3D and multitasking the Xeon will be 15-20% faster than the i5 even if it's 5 years older. The i5 is a better value for cheap gaming build as that's what it's designed for. New doesn't mean better performance
With all points mentionned, threre is really nowhere the Acer wins over the HP Workstation except the HP is a used one that cost a lot more when bought new
Ryzen 5 price have already been announced. Launch date is 11 April.If you want to make a cheap Ryzen build, the 1400 4core/8 threads is announced at 169$
https://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/3006596/amds-ryzen-5-available-on-april-11-for-usd169-to-usd249
I think you need to add 400$ for that. Not in the OP's price rangenregistrer
It may be better to buy a Ryzen 7 1700 and overclock to around 4 Ghz with the appropriate motherboard and cooling. Keep the rest of the money to buy a second Gfx card to drive the monitor when rendering in Iray
No it's wasn't me that mismatched hyperthreading and multicore but the actually retail outlets for those products. I read the advertisement for the i5-7400 at both Amazon and NewEgg and it's their advertising that is making the false claim. It's a bit tiresome as a consumer to have to start treating every product advertisement you read as a pack of lies and the go research the truth but apparently for some products that is neccessary.
Yes, for the Optane I am talking future expansion of the technology and not that it remain static as announced. As far as the RAM the DDR4 is higher frequency than the dual channel DDR3 and lower energy too. It is faster but not as fast as the quad channel as I said however as I said buying EOLed top of the line tech that's made a bit more affordable by the fact it's been superceded by better tech still not affordable strategy for me personally.
No the computer the OP bought was nearly $750 and the Ryzen PC on Amazon I refer too is a complete with 4GB nVidia card Ryzen 7 PC that can be had for like $850 - $950 so add $100 - $200 to the OP's budget and they get a much better computer.
As far as Windows 7 vs Windows 10, I don't care if Windows 10 collects data on me the same way Google, Apple, and all these other data warehouses have been doing for decades now and since Windows 10 is required for DirectX 12 and is much improved in parallel batching of work for both CPU and GPU operations, Windows 10 it is for me.
Holy Crap!! My daughter bought the Envy for me and it arrived today Major surprise!! andI have to say I think Windows 10 is a pain in the tookas!!
of course alot of things are a pain in the tookas for me I got myself down on the floor to get everything hooked up and in place ,and then couldn't figure out how to get up cause I have would floors and everything kept sliding away from me.... includeing my feet!! so I'm butt skooching around the floor for almost 2 hours ......but I did manage to get up ......now I'm trying to figure out how to move my bookmark/favorites back to where they can be found .... plus Skype is not working right still with Vista I couldn't hear who I was talking to now they can't hear me I think I need a nap now ...at least I found DAZ
I would agree with those saying you should do a fresh install of Windows; I'd also recommend creating a disk image once you installed everything before you starting adding passwords; that way if you need to recover, you can do it very quickly. Backups of personal data is still important though.
Absolutely not a fan of Windows 10 at all; Windows 10 home isn't worth the cost, even if you got it for free (which none of us did).
Congratulations on your new PC, carrie58. I hope you enjoy it and it serves you well. You have a generous daughter.
Did you have a drink to celebrate? Two hours is a long time to get up! Seriously, you should be careful if you have a slippery floor as you could fall.
Nope no drinking other then mint tea ,I'm gonna take her out to dinner when she comes to visit at the end of the month that's for sure!!She's my youngest ,and all 3 of my kids are great!! The floors are wood and when I'm walking it's not too bad , however when I was down on the floor they were slippery enough I couldn't get any traction and what ever piece of furniture I tried using to push up on kept slideing too I finally took my shoes off and shoved a chair agaist a wall and managed to get up that way .... makes me truly grateful I was alone ,wasn't a pretty picture at all though once I did get up I laughed my butt off ,and that was my exercise for the day ........whew!!
Is that what that was ......stupid 25 minute update and the computer had only been plugged in for like 3 hours .... I just hobbled away and did some needle felting ...all that stabbing is good when you have frustration to deal with
...If you know someone who knows about computers, I'd get an 8 GB stick and have them replace the 4 GB module with it it so you have a balanced 2 x 8 GB setup instead of the odd 8 GB + 4 GB configuration. Again I don't think this was the best dal especially at the price listed in the link. The IBuyPower 8 core AMD system I linked to was far better as when you are doing CPU rendering (which 3DL uses), the more CPU cores and memory, the better.
...Takeo.Kensei, +1.
I spent eighteen months learning about PC configuration and design before building my own system. Before then I thought "just go with the cheapest basic off the shelf setup I could get". I can say I am very glad I didn't even given the tech advances we have today.
@ nonesuch00
Intel doesn't lie about it's hardware, if they did they'd lose all credibility and be out of business as well as be in hot water with the FTC over false asdvertising. This is a company that makes processors for multimillion dollar supercomputers, they have too important a reputation to risk by making false claims.
IN any event, I am still going ahead with my dual Xeon E5 2690 build as yes, Xeons are more efficient. 32 threads at 2.9 GHz will outperform 4 at 4.0 and 128 GB of quad channel memory ensures a render job will never go into swap mode. Yeah it may not be as fast as GPU based rendering, but then I don't have to be concerned about scene file size. Though those refurbished HP workstations are tempting.as the memory and CPU can be upgraded later.