Carrara Portrait Lighting

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Comments

  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,615
    edited September 2012

    I'm saying that you think these rules you refer to are hard and fast. I say that they are important, but malleable...

    I know exactly what you're saying. And yes, you're right. Rules are made to be broken. How's that?

    Now that we have that out of the way, my point is that rules are not made to be broken by someone who doesn't know them and their purpose in the first place. And if anything is true in this forum, it's that the vast majority of people don't know the rules in the first place. You and I both know that's true, and it's not an attack, it's a fact. The vast majority of people here have no clue, for example, what color temperature means or how it affects their work. So saying it's important but not hard and fast doesn't help, because they really need to learn it in the first place and decide later when and if they're going to ignore or modify it.

    And I can give you a list a mile long of rules that are, the vast majority of the time, hard and fast, and if you decide to break them you'd better know what you're doing or your image isn't going to serve the purpose you had for it.

    Here's a few random, off the top rules:

    1. Don't light your subject from underneath (like in the image) if you want to project a soft, light, happy feeling. Because it won't do that. We all learned that as kids. It's pretty much a fact. Not sure how you'd modify it, but I'm sure you'll find a way. :)

    2. If you're making an advertising image to sell precious gems, you'd better learn to light the subject with a very specialized lighting scheme that highlights the gem's qualities. Otherwise nobody will buy the gem. For example, a single spot ain't gonna do it. Same applies to almost any type of advertising image for any product.

    3. If you want your audience to believe the scene is being lit by a certain type of light source, you should have its color temperature match pretty closely that of a real light source (which we already showed with the bonfire).

    4. If you want your audience to believe your scene is outside on a clear sunny day at noon, you should have a blue light source to simulate skylight.

    5. If you want your audience to believe your scene is realistic, stuff in your scene should cast shadows that correspond to the light sources.

    I could go on and on, but hopefully you get the point. I'm sure you can come up with reasons to bypass any one of these, but what's important is learning and understanding them, and their reasons, in the first place.

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  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,615
    edited September 2012

    Okay, lunch over, so I'll go on and on.... :)

    There is a huge list of rules that are based upon how we perceive images. And those are pretty much fact because they're based on how most people respond to images. It's just how we are.

    And if you want to get the viewer's attention and interest, you need to take advantage of these "habits". Or at least consider them.

    For example:

    1. Our eyes naturally jump to the brightest area of an image.

    2. We generally like simple, not "busy" or "cluttered" images, with a clear subject and focus.

    3. We tend to like images with a broad range of brightness levels (ie, "interest)

    4. There is a whole list of things that most people find "aesthetically pleasing" in images, the kind of stuff you learn about in training about image Composition.

    Post edited by JoeMamma2000 on
  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,615
    edited September 2012

    Now, as EvilProducer stated before, there are also rules based on how people perceive different colors. Here's some of the rules he outlined:

    "Black and white are good neutral colors that have a nice dynamic effect on an image. Grey is neutral as well of course, but it lacks any drama. The same with beige."

    The basic point is that most people associate certain feelings with certain colors. And that's partly based on how and where we normally see those colors in real life.

    Blue, which we generally associate with skylight, makes things "pop" and have a crisp, clear appearance. Which is why things on a bright sunny clear day look so vibrant and alive, while the same sun, while setting in the evening, gives a much warmer and yellow/orange glow as it bounces thru the atmosphere. We associate that with relaxing and warmth.

    You guys can fill in the blanks on the other colors, but it's pretty much factual that most of us are affected in the same way by various colors. In fact, if I give you a color, I'm sure you can explain to me what it means to you...

    For example, PINK.....

    Most of us can describe a lot about stuff associated with pink. Some of us could write an essay on all of the stuff associated with just that one color.

    Same goes for contrasts. Pure black and pure white in an image is the highest contrast, and is the opposite of calm and relaxing.

    And patterns. And textures. We all associate stuff with what we see. And some of those associations are pretty much universal.

    Post edited by JoeMamma2000 on
  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,615
    edited December 1969

    And none of these "rules" are going to cramp your artistic style, or limit your creativity. Think of them more as a language, and the rules associated with a language. It's how you speak to people's interests and emotions. If you want to speak English to someone, everyone needs to know the rules.

    Likewise, if you want someone to look at your image and cry, you need to know what makes him or her cry. You need to speak their emotional language.

  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,615
    edited September 2012

    Hold on...

    Wait a minute...I think I've found another rule when rendering images of scary monsters...

    Don't use...well, I'm sure you get the idea.

    Pink.jpg
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    Post edited by JoeMamma2000 on
  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,615
    edited December 1969

    And that opens up a whole new world of rules associated with posture, poses, and facial expressions.

    You ain't gonna scare anyone with an image of a monster, no matter how scary he is, if he's posed like a 16 year old girl with a crush.... :)

  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,615
    edited December 1969

    Uh oh, I'd better stop...

    Evil's gonna be pissed when he wakes up. I'm gettin' outta here .... :)

  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,615
    edited September 2012

    Oh, and one more analogy that might help...

    It's like music. You need to know some rules first before you play music. Why? Because if you throw some notes together randomly, most of us on the planet think it sounds nasty. So there are rules established about certain chords that sound pleasing to our ears, and evoke certain emotions. For example, a 9th chord on a guitar gives a "jazzy" sound that most of us really like. Other chords sound anticipatory, and others sound final.

    And so much music is based on a standard blues progression. Why? Because we love the way it sounds. A zillion songs all have that same basis, but they're all different enough that we still love it.

    There are tons of rules surrounding music, as any musician will tell you. Do they stifle creativity? Hell no, they enhance it. It gives you a way to say what you want to say, make people dance when you want them to, make them sad when you want them to, make them reminiscent. But if you didn't follow the rules, everyone would get up and walk out.

    Post edited by JoeMamma2000 on
  • booksbydavidbooksbydavid Posts: 404
    edited December 1969

    By the way, amateurs/hobbyists LOVE to cite the "there are no hard and fast rules" position. Which is absolutely true IF you're making images just for yourself. But there ARE hard and fast rules if you're making images for others to enjoy. There are many, many hard and fast rules.

    I've subscribed to both 3D World and 3D Artist for years, and while I realize that doesn't make me a professional, it does allow me an insight into the lives, thought processes and workflow of MANY 3D professionals. The one thing I've learned is that there are NO hard and fast rules for creating art. Several years of artist interviews show that every artist approaches his/her craft differently. Sure some things just ARE like lights light things, and color colors things but the art is in how you use those 'hard and fast' rules.

    And being able to use those 'hard and fast' rules in any way you choose to create your art sort of makes those 'hard and fast' rules not so 'hard and fast'. It turns them into, at the most, strong suggestions.

    And as far as Evil's image, the white background simply works for that image. I'm told all the time that an image should have a focus, something that captures the viewers eye. Well, Evil's image does just that. That white background forces the viewer in no uncertain terms to look at that girl, to focus on that girl! Makes sense to me, but then I guess I'm just a *gasp* hobbiest.

    Here's an image I did not too long ago (in Poser, sorry) that uses an all white background. I did this on purpose. My purpose was to show Jenny's innocence with the white dress and white background as well as the washed out, over bright lighting/postwork. I wanted the over the top white to give the red shrug (signifying Jenny's wilder side) a very sharp contrast. Yes, Jenny is innocence but in this case appearances are deceiving.

    http://cgandme.com/2012/09/10/the-jenny-wren-project-6/

    While some people will disagree, white is generally considered a color. If color in an image is important, then white is just as valid a choice as red or yellow or anything else.

    Now, I'll climb down from my high horse and go play with my virtual dolls.

  • booksbydavidbooksbydavid Posts: 404
    edited December 1969

    Oh, and one more analogy that might help...

    It's like music. You need to know some rules first before you play music. Why? Because if you throw some notes together randomly, most of us on the planet think it sounds nasty. So there are rules established about certain chords that sound pleasing to our ears, and evoke certain emotions. For example, a 9th chord on a guitar gives a "jazzy" sound that most of us really like. Other chords sound anticipatory, and others sound final.

    And so much music is based on a standard blues progression. Why? Because we love the way it sounds. A zillion songs all have that same basis, but they're all different enough that we still love it.

    There are tons of rules surrounding music, as any musician will tell you. Do they stifle creativity? Hell no, they enhance it. It gives you a way to say what you want to say, make people dance when you want them to, make them sad when you want them to, make them reminiscent. But if you didn't follow the rules, everyone would get up and walk out.

    Just as an aside, what about savants. There are records of savants who just started creating amazing artwork or music with no prior instruction and in some cases no prior experience at all. This would imply that we already have these 'rules' one needs to know to create art or music already in our brains. We don't have to learn them, we have to be retaught. Some who say they 'just know what's right' with their art are probably accessing the knowledge that is already wired into their brain.

    While I have some knowledge of color theory and a smattering of knowledge about lighting (I have actually read the Jeremy Birn book that most of us supposedly don't read...several times) most of the creative decisions I make when creating my images are instinctive or based on how a certain color or composition 'feels'. Many artist work this way, even 'professional' artists.

    You don't have to know the 'rules' to be a good or even great artist. The same goes for music. I won't deny that knowledge is power and the more you know the better you can become as an artist, but knowledge of the 'rules' is not a prerequisite to being an artist of any sort.

  • RoygeeRoygee Posts: 2,220
    edited December 1969

    Just in general - be wary of projecting a Euro-American centricity to all things artistic. There are many, many other cultures in the world that view colour and symbols very differently to Euro-America. In some countries white is the colour of mourning. In Africa and South-Central America art is vibrant and can be seen as over-saturated to Euro-American eyes. In English-centric countries, an owl is seen as representing wisdom: in Africa it is the harbinger of death. And so on - just don't get comfortable and assume that what you are used to, what your culture perceives as this or that, what emotions it evokes applies equally to all cultures.

    On a much lighter note (pun?) I've just spent the day replacing all the light fittings in my house - a fashion/culture statement by my wife?

    It occurred to me that it may be time for you guys to break out the Tipex and update your reference books on lighting - we've succumbed to the Greenies and can no longer buy incandescent light bulbs. it's all long-life, energy-saving CFL's, so from now onwards in my house indoor light renders will no longer be yellow, but blue-white.

    If you dare do a yellow-lighted indoor render you will be judged harshly as a recidivistic, politically incorrect, energy hog.

    Cheers

  • booksbydavidbooksbydavid Posts: 404
    edited December 1969

    Roygee said:

    If you dare do a yellow-lighted indoor render you will be judged harshly as a recidivistic, politically incorrect, energy hog.

    Cheers

    That's me! :lol:

  • Kevin SandersonKevin Sanderson Posts: 1,267
    edited December 1969

    Roygee said:

    It occurred to me that it may be time for you guys to break out the Tipex and update your reference books on lighting - we've succumbed to the Greenies and can no longer buy incandescent light bulbs. it's all long-life, energy-saving CFL's, so from now onwards in my house indoor light renders will no longer be yellow, but blue-white.

    If you dare do a yellow-lighted indoor render you will be judged harshly as a recidivistic, politically incorrect, energy hog.

    Cheers

    The GE Reveal CFL's are very close to the color of old incandescent bulbs. I find them much easier on the eyes than the blue-white bulbs.
    Home Depot and Lowes also have CFL's in a variety of colors. That'll all confuse folks. :)

  • Jay_NOLAJay_NOLA Posts: 1,145
    edited December 1969

    This has been a very informative thread.

    The blue and the orange coloration scheme is a big thing I see cropping up too much now a days and I can't even watch certain movies & TV shows because of it

    http://theabyssgazes.blogspot.com/2010/03/teal-and-orange-hollywood-please-stop.html

    http://www.slashfilm.com/orangeblue-contrast-in-movie-posters/

    http://www.cracked.com/article_18664_5-annoying-trends-that-make-every-movie-look-same.html

    Additionally light collation can affect brainwaves, certain colors. Certain color make it easier to induce the production of certain types of brainwaves based on how the are presented to a viewer as do the use of certain camera angles and cuts in a scene. I'll have to dig out my biofeedback books if anyone wants specifics on this.

    I got to ask at a biofeedback training conference a few years ago if the use of certain colored lights in the use of photic driving had the same impact if it was used on people from different cultures and the answer was that flickering a light at a certain rate with a certain color produces the same responses regardless of what the color represents in that culture.

  • RoygeeRoygee Posts: 2,220
    edited December 1969

    When I went to get mine, there were a staggering number of choices available - I settled for soft white - we seldom use the ceiling lights, anyway.

    So, we may as well tear out the page about yellow indoor lighting?

    Another one we can tear out is the one that espouses the conventional wisdom that uplighting the face engenders emotions of fear, horror, et al. Sure, "Westerners" are brought up in houses with ceiling lighting and are used to seeing folk lit from above - the horror of seeing someone lit from below is re-enforced by Hollywood. What about the millions, possibly a majority of people on Earth, living in rural areas and squalid shacks in urban areas, whose only source of night light is a fire in the center of a mud hut or a candle on a table?

    They have grown up seeing their siblings, parents, grandparents faces uplit - why on earth would the sight of an uplit face cause them any angs?

  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,615
    edited December 1969

    I've subscribed to both 3D World and 3D Artist for years, and while I realize that doesn't make me a professional, it does allow me an insight into the lives, thought processes and workflow of MANY 3D professionals. The one thing I've learned is that there are NO hard and fast rules for creating art. Several years of artist interviews show that every artist approaches his/her craft differently. Sure some things just ARE like lights light things, and color colors things but the art is in how you use those 'hard and fast' rules.


    And here's why I love you guys so much...

    I'll spend many hours providing examples, renders, detailed explanations, reasoning, and the results of my experience and professional training, and in return you will dismiss it with nothing more than "no, you're wrong", and cite some magazines you've read.

    Are you serious? You can't even provide one shred of rational thought or discussion on any one of the 30 or 40 examples and (dare I say it) "rules" I listed. And I'm supposed to take you seriously, and treat you with respect? This is exactly why I get so frustrated with some of you guys, and criticize you. Unbelievable.

  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,615
    edited December 1969

    Just as an aside, what about savants. There are records of savants who just started creating amazing artwork or music with no prior instruction and in some cases no prior experience at all.

    Okay, I'm not going to argue with this one, because with a little bit of thought you'll realize that the example you're giving has absolutely no relevance whatsoever. Savants play by the same musical rules as everyone else.

  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,615
    edited December 1969

    Roygee said:
    So, we may as well tear out the page about yellow indoor lighting?

    Another one we can tear out is the one that espouses the conventional wisdom that uplighting the face engenders emotions of fear, horror, et al.

    Okay, Roy, why not do this...

    Stop trying to pick at every single example I gave in an attempt to dismiss what I said because you don't like what I said.

    You guys will spend the next month trying to find exceptions to what I posted just so you can say you're right, and I'm wrong. And in doing so, you're missing the point.

    The point is that there are rules that you should learn first, before you decide to discard them. WHY? Because they say something about human nature, and how we respond to images. And it you care about affecting others with your images, you should at least understand those rules and why they apply. If they don't apply in South Africa, then fine. Don't use them in South Africa. But don't use that, as so many here constantly do, as an excuse not to learn anything in the first place. If you don't want to learn, then don't. But don't discourage others from doing so, because by picking at the point I'm making, that's what you're doing.

  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,615
    edited December 1969

    And as far as Evil's image, the white background simply works for that image. I'm told all the time that an image should have a focus, something that captures the viewers eye. Well, Evil's image does just that. That white background forces the viewer in no uncertain terms to look at that girl, to focus on that girl! Makes sense to me, but then I guess I'm just a *gasp* hobbiest..

    Okay, let me make this really clear.

    I NEVER SAID DON'T USE A FREAKIN' WHITE BACKGROUND !!!!

    I said start out with black while you are studying spotlights. Then, when you're done, you can look into the effect of backgrounds. That's what I said. Go back and read it. But you want to poke at what I say, so you re-word it so you can find a way to argue with it.

    White backgrounds are wonderful, okay? Many uses. No question. I love them, when used correctly. But my recommendation is don't try monkeying with too many things at once, and start learning slowly and simply.

  • booksbydavidbooksbydavid Posts: 404
    edited December 1969

    And as far as Evil's image, the white background simply works for that image. I'm told all the time that an image should have a focus, something that captures the viewers eye. Well, Evil's image does just that. That white background forces the viewer in no uncertain terms to look at that girl, to focus on that girl! Makes sense to me, but then I guess I'm just a *gasp* hobbiest..

    Okay, let me make this really clear.

    I NEVER SAID DON'T USE A FREAKIN' WHITE BACKGROUND !!!!

    I said start out with black while you are studying spotlights. Then, when you're done, you can look into the effect of backgrounds. That's what I said. Go back and read it. But you want to poke at what I say, so you re-word it so you can find a way to argue with it.

    White backgrounds are wonderful, okay? Many uses. No question. I love them, when used correctly. But my recommendation is don't try monkeying with too many things at once, and start learning slowly and simply.

    And I never said you never said don't use a freakin' white background!!!

    Go back and read it!!! I didn't quote you AT ALL. My entire post was talking about Evil's render, for cryin' out loud.

  • booksbydavidbooksbydavid Posts: 404
    edited December 1969

    I've subscribed to both 3D World and 3D Artist for years, and while I realize that doesn't make me a professional, it does allow me an insight into the lives, thought processes and workflow of MANY 3D professionals. The one thing I've learned is that there are NO hard and fast rules for creating art. Several years of artist interviews show that every artist approaches his/her craft differently. Sure some things just ARE like lights light things, and color colors things but the art is in how you use those 'hard and fast' rules.


    And here's why I love you guys so much...

    I'll spend many hours providing examples, renders, detailed explanations, reasoning, and the results of my experience and professional training, and in return you will dismiss it with nothing more than "no, you're wrong", and cite some magazines you've read.

    Are you serious? You can't even provide one shred of rational thought or discussion on any one of the 30 or 40 examples and (dare I say it) "rules" I listed. And I'm supposed to take you seriously, and treat you with respect? This is exactly why I get so frustrated with some of you guys, and criticize you. Unbelievable.

    I'm not about to go and pull up references to particular interviews or articles I've read. My point is 'professionals' in magazines aimed at 'professionals' (well at least 3D world) say these things. So I am to dismiss every word I read any place else and only listen to you? I'm glad you pointed that out. That will save me a couple hundred dollars every year in magazine subscriptions.

    And just for the record, you don't criticize us, you make fun of us. There's a difference. And while your insights and treatises on all things 3D show that you have some knowledge, the renders provided as examples don't make you appear any more talented or accomplished than the rest of us.

    I for one am still waiting to see your portfolio or any 'real' work done by you so that I can be suitably amazed. At least guys like Evil will show us his images and also his settings and screen caps and explain what he's done. You just show us images that have every appearance of being slapped together just to throw at us.

    Shouldn't you be working on some big 'professional' project that you can't tell any of us about instead of making fun of us 'hobbiests'?

  • booksbydavidbooksbydavid Posts: 404
    edited December 1969

    Just as an aside, what about savants. There are records of savants who just started creating amazing artwork or music with no prior instruction and in some cases no prior experience at all.

    Okay, I'm not going to argue with this one, because with a little bit of thought you'll realize that the example you're giving has absolutely no relevance whatsoever. Savants play by the same musical rules as everyone else.

    Yes, rules they never learned. Rules that were already there in their brains. You left out the bit where I said that those 'rules' you hold so dear appear to already be in our heads and that the learning is actually the reteaching of what we already knew.

    You also left out the bit where I said, ". I won’t deny that knowledge is power and the more you know the better you can become as an artist, but knowledge of the ‘rules’ is not a prerequisite to being an artist of any sort."

    Joe, I said you were right, I'm just pointing out that you may be a bit to didactic and unrelenting as far as the 'rules' are concerned.

  • booksbydavidbooksbydavid Posts: 404
    edited December 1969

    Roygee said:
    Just in general - be wary of projecting a Euro-American centricity to all things artistic. There are many, many other cultures in the world that view colour and symbols very differently to Euro-America. In some countries white is the colour of mourning. In Africa and South-Central America art is vibrant and can be seen as over-saturated to Euro-American eyes. In English-centric countries, an owl is seen as representing wisdom: in Africa it is the harbinger of death. And so on - just don't get comfortable and assume that what you are used to, what your culture perceives as this or that, what emotions it evokes applies equally to all cultures.


    Roygee, you're right about this, and I do tend to think in Eurocentric terms when creating. It's kinda hard to get away from it. You're lucky I don't throw Texas centric stuff at you. You'd all run for the hills.:lol:

    I will say that in recent years I've had the most enjoyment from movies (I'm talking CG movies) made in Europe, France mostly. The story telling as well as the color pallets used are refreshing and exciting. It pays to open your eyes and see the rest of the world. Thanks for the reminder.

  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,615
    edited December 1969

    Jay_NOLA said:
    The blue and the orange coloration scheme is a big thing I see cropping up too much now a days and I can't even watch certain movies & TV shows because of it

    http://theabyssgazes.blogspot.com/2010/03/teal-and-orange-hollywood-please-stop.html

    http://www.slashfilm.com/orangeblue-contrast-in-movie-posters/

    http://www.cracked.com/article_18664_5-annoying-trends-that-make-every-movie-look-same.html

    EXCELLENT !!! Jay gets the Carrara Forums award for the most intelligent and useful post of the year.

    Very true. Though keep in mind, for those who'd use the overuse/misuse of a "rule" as an excuse to never use the "rule" or dismiss it totally, the effect on viewers still applies. It's just up to the artist to decide how to best use it, if at all.

    Thanks, Jay. Good, insightful stuff.

  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,615
    edited December 1969

    By the way, the reason I'm so thrilled with Jay's post is this..

    It highlights that there are two ways you can participate in online public training forums. You can either focus on getting upset and offended, and attacking people and their motives with useless side issues and diversionary tactics, or you can raise pertinent issues and discuss those issues like an adult.

    Jay furthered the discussion by raising an issue that is VERY pertinent to professionals in the industry (and a source of much discussion and joking), and highlights two important points:

    1. There are rules, based on how viewers perceive things, and those perceptions are based on human nature.

    2. It's up to the artist to decide how and whether to take advantage of those perceptions.

  • evilproducerevilproducer Posts: 8,900
    edited September 2012

    edited to remove fuel.

    Post edited by evilproducer on
  • evilproducerevilproducer Posts: 8,900
    edited December 1969

    Remember everybody, don't be like me, and get overly emotional, and provide examples of how the rules can be bent.

  • evilproducerevilproducer Posts: 8,900
    edited December 1969

    BTW, here's a sinister example of underlighting, which we all know the rule states that it's sinister. Also, never use Carrara fire because it sucks. That's another rule.

    happy_birthday_Joe.jpg
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  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,615
    edited December 1969

    Really, you guys should read the Cracked article that Jay posted a link to. It's really good, and it highlights a lot of really good effects that are used, but unfortunately have become overused.

    Doesn't mean the effects are bad, because originally they worked really, really well. Some of them incredibly well. But the guys who made them work well did it for a specific reason, with a specific purpose. Those who jumped on the bandwagon recognized how well they worked, and overused and misused them. But they are all based on how viewers react.

    It's the same thing that happens in just about every industry. Fashion is a great example. Trends come, and trends go, and by the time they go you've just about had your fill of that trend. Same with music, or any other artform. But it's all an attempt to find out how viewers respond and take advantage of that.

  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,615
    edited December 1969

    BTW, here's a sinister example of underlighting, which we all know the rule states that it's sinister. Also, never use Carrara fire because it sucks. That's another rule.

    Sorry, Evil. I guess I gave you a lot of work to do. You'd better get busy, now you've got about 39 other examples to find exceptions to.

    Here, let me help...

    There's a small tribe in the mountains of Indonesia that uses a rare form of acacia wood to light their bonfires. And this particular type of wood actually burns with the same color spectrum as a GE Cool White CFL bulb, which is a slightly bluish tinge.

    So really, if you show them my image, they'd feel bad and confused, because they expect bonfires to emit blue light.

    Okay, now you've only got 38 left. Divide between you, Roy, and Dave, and you can knock it out in no time.

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