In celebration of the, "10 click render"
tring01
Posts: 305
I've posted a couple things on this forum about how quickly one can create a good looking image in Daz. I never got the kind of response I expected. In fact, sometimes no one would respond. I found it odd until I came across a tutorial video recently that described the snobbish way some people describe this as, "10 click rendering". Basically, it's intended as an insult to the person creating the image by asserting that they didn't suffer long enough or work hard enough to create their art - so therefore it can't be good art.
That attitude actually makes me chuckle. If I can create an image I want in ten clicks in Daz I look at that as a fantastic testament to the quality of the software and the community of merchants that support it. Sorry if I didn't suffer enough to please someone else's idea of what is good and proper.
Wonder if I can create an awesome render in 5 clicks? Hmmmm.....
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Comments
I have never heard of this "10 click render" insult thing ,but the less work the better in my opinion!
I think some people want things to be more difficult than it has to be, but this tends to be subjective. Mostly these are people who have confused the end goal ( a work of the imagination ) with the process of acquiring that image; which really need only be known by the artist themselves.
Art, to me, isn't for someone else to tell me "no it isn't or yes it is" good. It is a stress relief and an outlet for me. If an image is what I want it to be, then no one else has to like it. In fact, I have had people tell me all the changes I should make to an image to make it better. None of those were critique. They were all suggestions that would make the piece what "they" envisioned. My reply to that is, so go render that image yourself. :) With many sites, likes are all based on how many followers you have as well as trading likes.... "I'll like yours 'coz you liked mine." I have seen some really bad "art" have high double-digit likes or 5-starts etc.... It's all a social media based system. Just do what you enjoy and ignore the likes. :)
The problem is that it's not so much how hard it is, but how experienced. If you understand how things work, you don't need many clicks to set up a good scene. Some people seem to want some magic way to skip actually studying and experimenting and learning, and that just won't happen.
To some extent that's true, but after a while you'll notice that stuff produced by using for example a particular lighting set up, or expression/pose set will start to look the same, but that becomes the problem with using anything from the store like clothing, or sets, which leads back to the thread on kit-bashing. This is a problem traditional artists don't face quite as often, because no matter how much you try to copy someone's style odds are it's not going to look the exact same no matter how good you are.
And as much as I believe art is a personal thing, I don't want my stuff to look like other people's stuff, but I want it to express my individualism. If that wasn't the case I'd just keep it on my HD and never post it at all simply happy with the fact that I made it.
Exactly :) I quite often set up scenes with very few steps. I know what I need to do to make DS do what I want. The scenes "look" harder than they are. Some scenes take me forever to get the look I want. It all boils down to whether the result is what I wanted, not what others want to see...
I'm going to say I don't think I could ever do a render in just ten clicks, but that's because I never want to use characters, outfits, and poses "out of the box" and I'm always tweaking and adjusting to find what I want. (Now if we allow for "pre work" of having previously set up the character and the outfit, then maybe.)
If someone else likes a combination of character, outfit, and pose out of the box, then hey, more power to them. :)
I've never heard of the ten-click render.
As with everything, the truth probably thrives between the extremes. I've done many renders where, once I looked at them a day later, I saw could be improved by doing something "fiddly" like raising a character's eyebrow, altering one chrome shader for another chrome shader, deleting a single instance of a pigeon prop on a railing, etc. I think that, ideally, the devil is always in the details - but as a rule the better you are at anything, the more streamlined your work process is going to be.
I tend to only view the iRay render & Michael & Friends threads in the Commons and sometimes the Gallery but that said I tend to answer questions more in the forums than review art work, even if it's usually the same questions ask by different people over & over. Most people ain't got the time of day to spend looking though the Art Section of the Forum, the Contests, the New Users, the Galleries, and the various assorted post your render threads. I often don't comment on images I like because time is limited or often it looks like many renders I've seen before and in that case you see your vision of what your art should be but most others see a generic render of the same subject matter once again. It's sort of like answering the same question again and again - it's not an insult if they don't comment and you are least could do something as you wanted that the question asker in these forums could not.
No one is intending to insult anyone based on how much work it appears you've done on a render as it's quite easy to make it look like you've done a lot of work just by running a render through some filters - that part's easier than the DAZ part once you know the filters you want.
LOL, I see things I could improve usually right after I've rendered it, and that's been the case with pretty much every render I've ever done since I got mixed up with this moneypit. If you're truly a perfectionist to any degree, Daz is going to force you to dig deeper into the program and to slowly move away from quick click solutions in lieu of having more control.
I like it. I'm doing some mental counting and it would take at least 20 clicks to load the character, hair, materials, pose the figure, add a background and lights. But if we allow setting the figure up in advance, then maybe you do 10 clicks.Does scrolling through all the folders to find the content you want to use count to your click total? It would be a great challenge.
If you really could do a render in 10 clicks, congratulate yourself for having the extreme intelligence to have made smart and time saving buying decisions.
Do the clicks have to include finding content? Because probably half my clicks are tracking down skins and whatnot in my content library...
That said, I think I could get pretty close to 10 clicks and make decent stuff. Hrm.
I only need one click on the "make art" button!
well if you use a naked character probably with a closeup camera setting and a hdri environmental light setting in IRAY you add a chair or bed for surroundings and a pose out of the box, hitting the render button would be the six.t click....
Not the kind of scene I have in mind most of the times.
I'm always surprised by all the good models, textures, & what not that I have when I do go rummaging through all my DAZ Studio & Poser content library folder structures. I could do that for an hour or more just to see what is in there and be faced with the temptation of adding & deleting alot of them to see how they work in the scene...I've never finish a scene, let alone a render.
man if I only took 10 clicks to create an image I would feel I was missing something, LOL. Users that have always used plug and play apps like DS and poser don't see or know the difference. Users that have traditional modeling skills and are used to having to do most of the work on their own have a different mindset also, I come from a modeling background and as such create quite a bit of the scene myself instead of purchasing content for 2 reasons. First is I feel more productive doing it that way and second, I want to be as unique as possible. It's my image afterall, so the more in the scne I create, the more it is my expression of creativity and less of the person who created the assets I used.
If I see an image in the gallery that looks amazing, yet I can pick out where each part of the mesh is from at any given marketplace, it means less to me than if the image was sculpted in a modeling app and the textures were all made from scratch because I know what is involved and how much work went into it. Doesn't mean I can't appreciate the plug and play image, just that i will appeciate the one from scratch more due to the increased skill and work that went into it.
When I look at an amazing image I want to be inspired to be able to create that, not wonder where I can purchase it.
...on the flip side, my modelling skills are...well...better not talk about that.
However 10 clicks, and I haven't even started to set up a scene yet. Between the Geometry Editor, DFormers, morphing reosurce kits, surfacing resource kits, lighting, in addition to the base meshes, posing, blocking, and render tests, I would hazard to estamate maybe around 1,200 to 1,500 clicks for me on an average scene and more on the really big ones.
Speaking of using Daz asssets in unique ways - a recent promo piece from Delta Airlines for a tropical vacation package immediately caught my eye because it contained several Daz assets that I recognized. So...people doing it to make money don't always build from scratch.
That said, my brother-in-law has a long career as a professional graphic artist. Almost everything he does is custom because he has to create correct images of customer products for his images. His customers never have a usable 3D image for him, so he has to create everything by hand. He works LONG hours. Hard working guy and very successful.
To me it shouldn't be an issue of how hard you had to work on it - but if the image is what you need. As many others have stated here.
...any links?
I am working on teaching DAZ Studio to respond to these OS voice command controls...well maybe someday...
So in other words, Bob Ross isn't any good and not a real artist because he can paint an entire landscape that looks real in under 30 min?
LOL
For me, its not about the time or effort that goes into producing an image, but the result. Pure and simple. I believe that what some may object to is the notion that quick and easy should be a goal unto itself. I can't say that I agree with that philosophy. Sometimes a render is going to take a great deal more time and effort than others, but that does not diminish it because it wasn't done quickly.
I must say that the whole instant gratification movement that seems so pervasive is not one to which I personally subscribe.
Sorry, no. The image from Delta was in a promo email - and the half-life of those in my inbox is 0.75 seconds.
I don't have permission to share my brother-in-law's work. Odds are you would recognize some of it. He's had some big campaigns.
When I first started here about 8 months ago I saw this sentiment a lot - particularly with the anti-Iray crowd. People would bad-mouth Iray and people who use Iray because of it's ability to create decent looking art without a huge amount of effort. And as someone who works in comics I've seen this same sentiment against digital art in general. "Oh, it's created with the help of a computer so it's not "real" art." But this has been going on all throughout history in the art world. Anytime anything is invented that makes the creation of art easier, you have narrow-minded people spouting off about how it's not REAL art - because we have this archaic notion that in order for something to be art people have to SUFFER for it.
As a full-time artist, believe me, artist suffer enough. We don't need people telling us that the way we make art is "cheating" or isn't "real" art because it's not hard enough. Surviving on the amount of money that artists typically make is hard enough, we don't need to spend 10 times the amount of time working on the art for the same amount of money just to appease people who think they can tell us what is and isn't "real" art. If we can use tools or methods that help the process go more smoothly or that is less time consuming to help us work faster, we often have to. It helps us create more art in the same amount of time and helps put more food on the table and helps us to pay our bills. This idea that artist should suffer more or use ancient out dated methods or else are labeled not "real artists" is just gross.
..too bad. Don't travel very much so I don't get promos from airlines (mostly online shopping services for stuff I'd never bother purchasing).
Good though to know our little programme gets exposure like that once in a while. Delta is not a small company, considering a couple years ago they acquired Northwest Orient which had been around since the 1920s and pioneered the "Great Circle" route to Asia.
..well said.
As I mentioned in another thread, I did a presentation of my work before a panel of pro digital artists. They were extremely impressed, then surprised when I told them I didn't use the industry standard programmes like 3DS Max, Lightwave, or Photoshop.
Ha, yes, I remember drawing very mediocre #2 pencil drawing on school notebook paper in like 30 minutes. I taught myself through shear repetition due to lack of natural talent but it got compliments in class not that that was what I was after. I was simply copying my oldest brother who did have natural talent. So now, decades later, I can struggle for a week trying to get a DAZ scene setup & trying to make it look not 100% contrived and rendered without the noise in the shadows and it's basically, well so what, a computer did it and very talented 3D artists put it together for you so you could do that. I know the pencil to paper was easier, without a doubt.
Luckily I've never tried to make a living as an artist though.
My thougths exactly.
Yeah I agree I have been painting traditionally for years. and i have to say digital art/3d art is not easier!! For one thing you need to have artistic and techical computer skills as well as a good memory.Personally I like to get back to some arcylics or watercolours to have a nice relaxing day.The computer does not do the work all the work,you still have to use lighting,composition,poses, colour schemes.I also have learned a lot about compostion and lighting which is great.
Da Vinci, Monet, Picasso... these guys weren't real artisits. They used brushes!! A REAL artist would have been using his FINGERS!