Help with creating clothes for Genesis.... steps involved?

13

Comments

  • MadbatMadbat Posts: 356
    edited December 1969

    Actually the point I was wanting clarified was this: [from the user guide Modifying auto-generated morphs]
    http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dazstudio/4/userguide/creating_content/modeling/tutorials/modifying_morphs/start

    Alternative: Hexagon Bridge [WIP]
    select the clothing item you wish to edit and then hit the send to hexagon link. This will then send that item (along with anything parented to it) to hexagon. When returning, make sure the item to receive the morphs MUST be selected when importing or sending back from Hexagon. If you wish to edit around the figure itself, then Genesis should be selected vand sent to hexagon. The figure will then arrive in Hexagon with any fit to/parented items. However, in this particular case, the user MUST make sure that the item they are editing is selected in the scene pane BEFORE sending from hexagon to DS or it won't work.

    Just to clarify...If I want to modify, say a shirt to fix boobsocks or add wrinkles, I'm selecting genesis with the item already fit, then send to hex via the bridge, but select the shirt in daz before sending it back?

    I take it then I need to save the shirt then, and the morphs should load when I reload it, or do I need to go get more coffee?

  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 4,511
    edited February 2013

    Well you can save the shirt and the morphs would stay with it. But I also suggest saving the new shirt as a figure asset so that it will be stored in your content library. If you are using DS 4.5(and saving to your library as an asset) the advantage I notice is file sizes of your DS files is smaller. (this may have been the case in 4.0, but I didn't work clothes back then so I don't know) Which means faster loading and saving(4.0 was slow even with DS native content). Also if you wish to use later on another figure it would be easier to find. Sure the boobsock fix won't work as well if you have a different figure (or at all) but I think you get the idea.

    If you add a movement morph for example it would potentially be useful for any of your figures.

    I think you mean select the shirt in Hexagon before sending back to daz correct?

    Post edited by larsmidnatt on
  • MadbatMadbat Posts: 356
    edited December 1969

    OK, that helps clarify a few things to get me going. Thanks.

    However, in this particular case, the user MUST make sure that the item they are editing is selected in the scene pane BEFORE sending from hexagon to DS or it won’t work.

    If I'm reading this correctly, it's saying to select the morphed item (shirt in this case) in the Daz scene pane before sending it back to daz from hex. (because in the example the clothing was loaded with the genesis figure, but the figure itself was not morphed, just the clothing)

    It's funny, I've had Hex sitting on my pc since the beginning and finally got around to using it, lol. I never liked genesis much, but the dson plugin, plus the cararra beta has me finally poking my nose in.

  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 4,511
    edited December 1969

    I'm not sure what I have selected in DS, I guess it is the morphed item. But the important thing from my experience is to make sure you have the correct item selected in hexagon and that the name hasn't changed.

    Or as mentioned before, you can absolutely use Carrara or another 3D package, make morphs and export as an OBJ. Use morph loader pro to add the morph to the item. You just need to make sure that you have the figure set to BASE resolution FIRST before you export out of Daz.

    Anyway, I use hexagon for some morphs because it is convenient. But for complex morphs I go elsewhere. So I use both methods. I haven't had a problem sending back from Hex to Daz, but it may be because I don't use Daz while I'm editing in hex.

  • MadbatMadbat Posts: 356
    edited December 1969

    I like the idea of sending to hex while I'm working, I like to see what's going on, pop back in, and work that way. I don't like exporting then loading a morph only to have to rinse and repeat. If I have something well planned out, (rarely) then I'll export and work that way.

    Yes, I remember all the bits about base resolution when genesis first came out...because of it's use of sub-d.

  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,899
    edited December 1969

    Have a couple of questions.

    1) How do I save a DS 4.5 rigged figure? In tutorials for DS 4.0 there is an option to save a "DSF Figure or Prop" but I don't see those in DS 4.5

    2) Is there a bug with custom bones? I created a long skirt, transfered Genesis rigging, deleted unused bones, renamed (including node rename) for shins and thighs but DS still conforms shins and thighs to Genesis, instead of letting those bones flow freely

  • DaremoK3DaremoK3 Posts: 589
    edited December 1969

    Hey Kattey,

    1. Save as "Support Asset/Figure or Prop Asset".

    2. Without seeing your work it would be hard to pinpoint where your error lies. I haven't encountered any bugs with the bones tools in 4.5, but mileage may very. Are you sure you have done everything required to change the bones to custom bones, and are attributed to the mesh you want the bones to affect?

    Have you digested SickleYields's great tutorial regarding just this procedure (ghost bones on long skirts)? Located here:

    http://forumarchive.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=181707

    If not, I recommend following her tut. It might lead you in the right direction for success.

    Good luck...

  • PendraiaPendraia Posts: 2,941
    edited December 1969

    DaremoK3 said:
    Hey Kattey,

    1. Save as "Support Asset/Figure or Prop Asset".

    2. Without seeing your work it would be hard to pinpoint where your error lies. I haven't encountered any bugs with the bones tools in 4.5, but mileage may very. Are you sure you have done everything required to change the bones to custom bones, and are attributed to the mesh you want the bones to affect?

    Have you digested SickleYields's great tutorial regarding just this procedure (ghost bones on long skirts)? Located here:

    http://forumarchive.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=181707

    If not, I recommend following her tut. It might lead you in the right direction for success.

    Good luck...


    Hi Daremok, I'm curious why you are saving as a prop figure or prop asset rather than a wearable? What are the benefits in doing this?
    Thanks

    Pen

  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,899
    edited December 1969

    DaremoK3 said:
    Hey Kattey,

    1. Save as "Support Asset/Figure or Prop Asset".

    2. Without seeing your work it would be hard to pinpoint where your error lies. I haven't encountered any bugs with the bones tools in 4.5, but mileage may very. Are you sure you have done everything required to change the bones to custom bones, and are attributed to the mesh you want the bones to affect?

    Have you digested SickleYields's great tutorial regarding just this procedure (ghost bones on long skirts)? Located here:

    http://forumarchive.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=181707

    If not, I recommend following her tut. It might lead you in the right direction for success.

    Good luck...


    Yes, I followed exactly that tutorial, still getting my customized bones confirming to Genesis movements
  • DaremoK3DaremoK3 Posts: 589
    edited February 2013

    Pendraia:

    As far as I know, from 4.0 to 4.5 the saving of the DSF "Figure/Prop" became DUF "Asset - Figure/Prop" (which was Kattey's question).

    I haven't saved any base rigged items as "Wearable". I use the save as asset (per tutorials; continuation of save as figure/prop), but I have used the internal definition "Wearable" category in the Figure/Prop Asset.

    Not sure what you are describing, or if there is an advantage to either (if separate). Would like to know if there is an easier/simpler save as (wearable, for instance) that I should be using for certain models instead of the all encompassing save as asset.


    Kattey:

    Not sure what to tell you, but I have deleted and reassigned bones till' the cows come home, and they work on all accounts.

    Quick checklist:

    Did you use the Polygon Editor Tool to select the part of the mesh you would like to assign to the new (or renamed) bone?

    Did you create a new "Face Group" for said polygons, so you can assign the bone to the wanted part of mesh?

    Did you assign the bone to the Face Group with the drop-down box in the Bone Editor Tool?


    Without screenshots, and seeing your work-flow firsthand, it is difficult to tell exactly what you might be missing. Please, don't give up. It can be done. Check those above, and if you require further assistance, I, or someone else will be happy to assist.

    *EDIT: Corrected info for the save as asset (4.5 saves as DUF, and not DSF).

    Post edited by DaremoK3 on
  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,899
    edited December 1969

    Did you create a new “Face Group” for said polygons, so you can assign the bone to the wanted part of mesh?

    Did you assign the bone to the Face Group with the drop-down box in the Bone Editor Tool?


    Why should I do that? Polygon groups don't influence rigging, according to that video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k52wwyv234U
  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited December 1969

    Kattey said:
    Did you create a new “Face Group” for said polygons, so you can assign the bone to the wanted part of mesh?

    Did you assign the bone to the Face Group with the drop-down box in the Bone Editor Tool?


    Why should I do that? Polygon groups don't influence rigging, according to that video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k52wwyv234U
    Oh yes they do! Not only that, but if you assign a bone to a face group, you also have to weight map it before it'll work.
  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,899
    edited February 2013

    wancow said:
    Kattey said:
    Did you create a new “Face Group” for said polygons, so you can assign the bone to the wanted part of mesh?

    Did you assign the bone to the Face Group with the drop-down box in the Bone Editor Tool?


    Why should I do that? Polygon groups don't influence rigging, according to that video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k52wwyv234U

    Oh yes they do! Not only that, but if you assign a bone to a face group, you also have to weight map it before it'll work.
    Weight maps yes, I understand that. But according to the video, polygroups have nothing to do with bones themselves in rigging, as in influencing which bones affects which area and how. Watch the video in link above, around 2:25 and later.
    "We don't use those for actually defining bones"
    And later, around 3:20, saying that any bone can influence any polygons.

    Polygroups are here only so user is a able to select bodyparts in viewport instead of going into scene tab all the time.

    Currently I added a custom bone, without any polygons assigned to it through polygroup editor or otherwise, and I'm still able to weight paint it in any way I want.

    Post edited by Kattey on
  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited December 1969

    Kattey said:

    "We don't use those for actually defining bones"
    And later, around 3:20, saying that any bone can influence any polygons.

    A bone can influence any polygon within the figure, yes. But that polygon can only be affected by a bone IF it is assigned to the face group that bone affects. I heard what he said, and it is a bit misleading.

    You MUST have polygons assigned to face groups in order for bones to be assigned to them. One bone to one face group. A bone can only be assigned to a single face group, and that face group must be weight mapped for each of the bone's joint rotations in order for them to work at all.

  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,899
    edited February 2013

    wancow said:
    Kattey said:

    "We don't use those for actually defining bones"
    And later, around 3:20, saying that any bone can influence any polygons.

    A bone can influence any polygon within the figure, yes. But that polygon can only be affected by a bone IF it is assigned to the face group that bone affects. I heard what he said, and it is a bit misleading.

    You MUST have polygons assigned to face groups in order for bones to be assigned to them. One bone to one face group. A bone can only be assigned to a single face group, and that face group must be weight mapped for each of the bone's joint rotations in order for them to work at all.

    Sorry, but it isn't what my experience is telling me. I created a new, custom bone, say, called Handle. I didn't assign _any_ polygons to it. Handle bone has no connection to any face/region/surface groups. All polygons that this bone is affecting in its weight map are assigned to 3 different face groups with no connection to Handle bone whatsoever.

    But I'm still very much able to weight map Handle bone and have those polygons I want affected by its movement just as I wanted to. Polygroups and polygons assignment to them have no influence on weight maps.

    Post edited by Kattey on
  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited December 1969

    I'd really love to know how you did that!

  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,899
    edited December 1969

    wancow said:
    I'd really love to know how you did that!

    Um, very simple. I added a child bone to pelvis, called it Handle (both "inner" and "outer" name), and went straight to weightmap brushing not bothering with polygroups at all at this stage. All polygons in the object have face polygroups assigned by material/surface areas, so there is no connection between rigging and polygroups, design-wise.

  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited February 2013

    okay, you're right. What Polygroups allow you to do is control where the weight mapping goes.

    That said, if a polygon is weight mapped to a specific bone, it can only be affected by that bone or its parents.

    Post edited by wancow on
  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,899
    edited February 2013

    wancow said:
    okay, you're right. What Polygroups allow you to do is control where the weight mapping goes.
    It might make the selection and weightmapping an easier process but using polygroups isn't mandatory for weight mapping. You can weightmap any polygon to any rotation of any bone without bothering with polygroups.

    That said, if a polygon is weight mapped to a specific bone, it can only be affected by that bone or its parents.


    Well, no. Same polygon can be affected by different/multiple bones which don't have to be a parent-child of each other.

    For example, with that Handle bone I've mentioned. Twist rotation of Handle bone affects almost all polygons of skirt object, but that skirt is also weight-mapped to two different other bones to give it nice side-side movements and those two bones aren't parents to Handle or a child of it.

    Post edited by Kattey on
  • DaremoK3DaremoK3 Posts: 589
    edited December 1969

    Kattey:

    Well, yes, and no...

    The three polygon groups (four if including Rigidity Groups) are independent of one another, and all have their separate uses, but they can be used in concert to make content creation easier.

    The yes would be that weight maps will circumvent any poly groups, but initial setup is via Face Groups.

    When you created your skirt as a "fit to" figure for Genesis did you do it via the Transfer Utility?

    If so, when you did, not only did DS create bones based on the Genesis template, but it also created the assignments of those bones through Face Groups.

    For custom bones you need to adjust all aspects of your base from reassigning/creating bones, creating/reassigning face groups, and re-mapping/creating new weight maps.

    It sounds as if you kept all the bone assignments default to the auto-transfer by the Transfer Utility, but changed the weight mapping (which will circumvent any bone assignments). Not saying it can't be done, but I'm not sure it is the correct way one should go about doing it.

    The no would be that the whole purpose of the Face Groups are for bone assignment. You can only have one polygon assigned to any one group. When you add to one it takes away from another.


    Regarding possible bone bug, I just did a quick long pencil skirt, and quick rig via the Transfer Utility. Then, I went about deleting/changing bones (and assignments with new face groups). I left the weight mapping as is (fine for my right/left skirt bones), but I would need to create weight mapping for the new ghost bones I introduced (front/back).

    During testing it failed to recognize all changes I made to the figure, and Genesis was still linked to the old bones (rShin still moved my non-existent rShin bone in the skirt, now named rSkirt). I had to save the skirt as a figure asset, clear the scene, reload Genesis, and then the new skirt for it to work correctly as intended (not sure if bug or by design; DSPro4.5.0.114).

    I now have a long skirt with four ghost bones working independently of Genesis' bones.

    I saved twenty-one screenshots during the process, and can make a visual mini-tut if you would like...

  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,899
    edited December 1969

    DaremoK3 said:
    Kattey:

    Well, yes, and no...

    The three polygon groups (four if including Rigidity Groups) are independent of one another, and all have their separate uses, but they can be used in concert to make content creation easier.

    The yes would be that weight maps will circumvent any poly groups, but initial setup is via Face Groups.

    When you created your skirt as a "fit to" figure for Genesis did you do it via the Transfer Utility?

    If so, when you did, not only did DS create bones based on the Genesis template, but it also created the assignments of those bones through Face Groups.

    For custom bones you need to adjust all aspects of your base from reassigning/creating bones, creating/reassigning face groups, and re-mapping/creating new weight maps.

    It sounds as if you kept all the bone assignments default to the auto-transfer by the Transfer Utility, but changed the weight mapping (which will circumvent any bone assignments). Not saying it can't be done, but I'm not sure it is the correct way one should go about doing it.

    The no would be that the whole purpose of the Face Groups are for bone assignment. You can only have one polygon assigned to any one group. When you add to one it takes away from another.


    Regarding possible bone bug, I just did a quick long pencil skirt, and quick rig via the Transfer Utility. Then, I went about deleting/changing bones (and assignments with new face groups). I left the weight mapping as is (fine for my right/left skirt bones), but I would need to create weight mapping for the new ghost bones I introduced (front/back).

    During testing it failed to recognize all changes I made to the figure, and Genesis was still linked to the old bones (rShin still moved my non-existent rShin bone in the skirt, now named rSkirt). I had to save the skirt as a figure asset, clear the scene, reload Genesis, and then the new skirt for it to work correctly as intended (not sure if bug or by design; DSPro4.5.0.114).

    I now have a long skirt with four ghost bones working independently of Genesis' bones.

    I saved twenty-one screenshots during the process, and can make a visual mini-tut if you would like...


    Thanks for the feedback, I really appreciate it and yes, mini-tut will be very welcomed. I ended up opening uncompressed duf (from People\ folder) and dsf (from data\ folder) files in text editor and manually renaming all shins and thighs I could find but it is a quite annoying procedure, I'd rather learn how to do it from within studio.
  • DaremoK3DaremoK3 Posts: 589
    edited December 1969

    Kattey's mini-tut:

    *Changing/creating new bones for Transfer Utility auto-generated long skirt.

    The following information is illustrated in the images below.

    *PART 1-4:

    1. Initial figure created via the Transfer Utility. All bones seen in Scene Tab on left, and bones actually used/assigned seen in Polygon Group Editor on the right. Note; Only hip, lShin, lThigh, rShin, and rThigh are assigned. All polys in each individual group adds up to the total polys of the mesh (256). No single polygon can be assigned to more than one face group.

    2. Example showing the default assigned bone/poly-groups.

    3. Here you can see "pelvis" is assigned to "hip" poly-group.

    4. Joint Editor Tool drop-down box where you select bone to poly-group assignment.


    ***Continued in next post...

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  • DaremoK3DaremoK3 Posts: 589
    edited February 2013

    Kattey's tut continued...

    *PART 5-8:

    5/5a. Initial right shin bone, and poly-group assignment.

    6. Renamed rShin bone to rSkirt, but you can see that the poly-group assignment remains the same (rShin).

    7. New polygon selection for rSkirt bone. In Polygon Group Editor, right-click Face Group header (Face Group), and select "Create Face Group from Selected".

    8. Name your selection group identical to the bone it will be assigned to.


    ***Continued next post...

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  • DaremoK3DaremoK3 Posts: 589
    edited February 2013

    Kattey's tut continued...

    *PART 9-13:

    9. Result of new rSkirt bone face group.

    10. New ghost bone created (frtSkirt). Note there is no group of polygons that can be assigned to this bone.

    11. Same as before, selected polys for new face group (frtSkirt), created from selection, and named same as bone to be assigned.

    12. Assigning rSkirt bone to the rSkirt poly-group.

    13. Assigning frtSkirt bone to the frtSkirt poly-group.


    ***Finished next post...

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  • DaremoK3DaremoK3 Posts: 589
    edited February 2013

    Kattey's tut continued...

    *PART 14-15:

    14. Finishing up removing the last of the polygons tied to rShin by creating my bkSkirt poly-group. Once all polys are removed from a poly-group it is safe to delete it.

    15. Success. Moving the rShin bone of Genesis no longer controls the lower part of skirt that was previously assigned to follow. Note; The weight maps have not been changed, and my new rSkirt bone will be using the maps from the old rShin bone. This is due to "borrowing" the bone, and just renaming it. All weight maps remain intact. However, my two new ghost bones (frtSkirt/bkSkirt) have no weight mapping, because they are entirely new bones. I will have to complete the process of creating maps for them.

    ***FIN***

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  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,899
    edited December 1969

    Thank you very much, DaremoK3! :D

  • DaremoK3DaremoK3 Posts: 589
    edited December 1969

    You are most welcome, Kattey.

  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,899
    edited December 1969

    Another question I have: did anybody encountered the situation, where in renamed bone (that was, say, rThigh before), you can see Bend/Twist/Side-Side sliders but in weight-mapped panel X/Y/Z Rotations are actually absent even if you still completely see the influence. Like they went invisible, or something.

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 53,669
    edited December 1969

    Kattey said:
    Another question I have: did anybody encountered the situation, where in renamed bone (that was, say, rThigh before), you can see Bend/Twist/Side-Side sliders but in weight-mapped panel X/Y/Z Rotations are actually absent even if you still completely see the influence. Like they went invisible, or something.

    I met something like that when trying to reuse the original handle bones - I think it was because the bone had lost their place in the hierarchy, or there were duplicate bone names. I know I did manage to get maps for the bones, but not how.

  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,899
    edited February 2013

    Thanks, Richard, at least I know I'm not dreaming it

    Another question. When you weight map bones, say, you have a bone and a child of that bone and you weightmap the child first. Will weightmapping of parent affect weightmaps of the child and/or the other way around?

    Post edited by Kattey on
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