You Can't Please Everyone
nelsonsmith
Posts: 1,325
"Try to please everyone, and please no one"
It's an old adage with many variations, but it does infer that you do have to please someone. So I'm starting to wonder exactly who is Daz most pleasing at present? This isn't a criticism so much as stepping back and giving some pause. It seems that more people seem to express their displeasure whether it be an outfit, a character or the software itself. I still consider myself fairly new, so maybe it's always been this way, but I came into it with no real idea of what could actually be done with Daz, so I didn't really have any preconceived notions, though it didn't take long to realize that if I was wanting to do more than pose scantily clad buxom models, or fairies it was going to have to develop additional skills.
It also seems to me that most of the stuff people want can be achieved if they develop those skills; the thing is figuring out what those skills are and where to acquire them. Even when the resources are developed the documentation is very bare bones. It's quite possible that Daz could stem a lot of the discontent if a bit more effort was put on the utilities and how exactly to use them so that a lot of people could then do for themselves the stuff they are relying on PAs to do. Obviously a lot of people already know how to do much of this as people are always suggesting fixes, which is fine if you're at an intermediate level, but often worthless to suggest to a newb; and it does look like many PA's are releasing items with the idea that Daz users are able to do their own mods.
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Comments
There really is not that much discontent with DAZ or DAZ products.
As anybody who has ever been to any forum knows, the people posting in the forums are only a very small percentage of the actual customer base....and by nature people tend to feel more inspired to post something when they are upset with something rather than when they are pleased with it. So the forums are always going to appear more negative than the market really is.
DAZ routinely polls its larger customer base, and while that too does not give a complete picture, it definitly gives a much wider perspective than forum posts on the state of their business. So right now, both the sales figures and the poll comments show that DAZ and their products have a very high level of satisfaction amongst the greater customer base.
It's interesting, though, if you check out website traffic at alexa.com for DAZ3D and it's competitors. I was quite a bit shocked how things developed there...
Other than that, the forum's fairly peaceful at the moment, and it's as RawArt says. (Though, in the part of Germany where I live, they hav
Tykey, block can be such a blessing. Albeit limited
@nelsonsmith: Forums (here and elsewhere) sometimes remind me of the old joke about the new restaurant down the block. "The food is terrible, and the portions are too small!" That said, the DAZ forums seem to be much less negative (to me) than they were a couple of years ago.
As for lack of documentation, I nearly gave up on DAZ a month after I downloaded Studio because there wasn't a manual and other documentation was very sparse. I learned much more by going to YouTube and browsing different video tutorials as well as finding some materials that Sickleyield and Shibashake posted elsewhere on the net. That gave me enough to go on and then I was motivated to learn much more about what the software was really about. My initial goal was to simply create some photorealistic backgrounds that I could use in my own photography, so I sought out as much Stonemason as possible.
My guess is that, like nearly every other commercial website, there's a predictable degree of customer turnover and a much smaller base of long-time consumers. I would imagine that enough newbies replace those who grow bored with their hobby for everything to remain profitable.
Polls? Where? Been a customer here for ten years and never seen a single poll/survey..
But agreed, you can't please everyone, people are too different, and at the end of the day, this is a business not a charity.
I feel that Daz is targetting those who are completely new to 3D modelling, those who don't know what UV maps are (AKA basics).
In a sense, Daz is making the whole 3D modelling easier, perhaps too easy.
But once you grow out of the mold which Daz has crafted, you will start to dislike the direction Daz is heading. Or at least, that's my case. I was happy with Daz content until I started to invest my time into Blender and started to model my own meshes. From that point, I started to shy away from Daz content progressively.
Reason? It was my own creation versus someone else's creation. My own creation obviously reflected my motives better than someone else's.
Besides, Daz's render options are way too limited. I don't have full control over shaders, either.
I am a hobbyist though. From a pro's vewpoint, it will be different.
I think that's it exactly. Once you start to want to express your own individuality, and find that that can be difficult, albeit the tools being there and even built into the software, frustration can begin to set in. A complete beginner who is happy with just choosing a figure, putting any outfit on them, setting up a light preset and doing a render has no reason not to be completely happy with Daz, nor do they really need detailed manuals explaining settings they'll more than likely never have to use.
Polls are targeted to a certain customer base. They use some kind of formula and run it to get who they will be sending it out to. I've been here for 12 yr and have only had 1 poll, but they do them yearly I believe.
For the record, I have no problem with Daz content and their direction objectively. They are lowering the entry barrier and getting more people into 3D. I mean that's how I got started. Everyone has to start from somewhere.
I was there and loved Daz content at one time.
But, as nelsonsmith pointed out, I wasn't content with just choosing a figure, put compatible clothes onto it and off rendering with a light preset. I wanted more.
You certainly CAN do a lot more without moving into modeling your own figures. It's just... photography.
I'm happy with the Daz store mainly because no matter how good I get, there's always going to be certain things other people do better, or faster, or that I simply don't enjoy doing.
I mean, maybe I COULD spend months or a year+ getting a medieval castle designed in intricate, excquisite detail. But that's months/years I could be spending doing stuff I want to do more.
I think that's the best (and most productive for a user) way to think of it. DAZ Studio is a studio. Once you set up your assets, it's up to you to choose how to light the scene, what camera angle to choose, whether to pursue depth-of-field or atmopsphere effects, and what lens to use. You can have five photographers enter the same room and take photographs, and all of them will reflect the photogs' styles and skill levels. It's also possible they won't even all look like photographs of the same room!
I came at DAZ from a photography angle rather than as a CGI enthusiast. While I haven't modelled anything from scratch yet, I learned how to modify and create my own textures, use textured primitives to create backgrounds, and developed an enthusiasm for kitbashing. I think these are things that come from a willingness to experiment, make mistakes, and think outside of the box. But those aren't things that will necessarily keep the business profitable. Assets have to be sold each month.
I got DAZ originally in 2008-2009ish. I came to it somehow via IClone. I definitely liked how M4 and V4 looked, but I didn't really understand the purpose of the software. A lot of my problem was that I wanted it to be quick and easy to pick up when I really didn't have the time to invest.
I came back to DAZ when IClone could import characters from DAZ into the animation software. When that happpened, I came back and this time I invested the time to start learning what DAZ was and how to really use it successfully. However, most of My learning has been through trial and error, YouTube, and companies like Dreamlight who sell DAZ related how-to courses.
I'm the first to admit that I own entirely too much DAZ content for my own good, but it's become one of the few hobbies I've ever had that I'be stuck with beyond 2 or 3 months. Not a day goes by that I don't think about DAZ. It generally starts my day as I log on using my iPad to see what's new.
Are there things I wish he would fix, gosh yes. I wish they would provide links to documentation from within the product library. I also wish I could download my product library information (with pictures) for use in external database programs. I wish, well I have lots of wishes, but I love me some DAZ.
Jason
Since people are mentioning the DIY route, its wise to remember the time/cash trade off. My sets can range from 100-200 hours of work generally and you can pick up one of those sets for around $20. If you want to invest 100 hours into an environment/garment/prop set that's just to your liking, then more power to you, but the option is always there to pick up a stock product. I still purchase a lot of daz gear, because even though i could make it myself, the time investment often just isn't worth it if i can pick up something similar for the price of a meal.
Well before one embarks on any of these undertakings
one needs to establish clearly defined creative or artistic objectives.
After you have established your personal objectives you are in a better position the assess what skills you need to aquire.
Oh and understand one does NOT have to aquire ALL of these skills
before hand or even retain them going forward.
one can learn just enough to get the next render/animation etc finished and move on to the next creative endeavour.
I call it objective based learning
Establish the objective first and use the "Big Data" of the internet
to find the information achieve that particular objective
Download/save the tutorials to one personal knowledge Database
and forget about it until the task is needed again in the future.
@KindredArts
Well I must say your sets are amazing. I tend to look at them as locations just as I would in straight photography. At this stage in my Daz life I have not specifically needed to model any sets with people like you and StoneMason doing such a marvellous job.
Props and outfits however are forcing me to have to develop the skills in those areas; first for originality when called for, but also since I'm really wanting to do historically oriented work, I need the quality control, nor can I wait for some PA to decide it's worth their time to do accurate period garb.
I have purchased a few items that I'm perfectly capable of doing myself, simply because it saves me enormous time.
Like some of the fabric sets, or lighting, or whatever. I CAN do those things, but the work it saves me to have a packaged easy product to do it...
And the skills aren't useless, since understanding what a product is doing and why can help you make the most of it.
In fact, via Shader Mixer you can edit both Renderman and MDL shaders at a block level and bring custom MDL code in, whiler for Renderman Shader Builder (or a text editor) give you full access to Renderman 1 shader authoring. Scripted rendering further extends what you can do. What DS does lack to a large degree is mesh creation and editing tools (though once mesh is created it can be grouped and rigged).
Thank you! It's nice to spot a happy customer in the wild :)
I can see where historically accurate costumes might be tricky to find *off the shelf* as it's quite niche. On the other hand, i've seen some pretty great products out there. There's a guy on rendo that does ww2 military uniforms/weapons, and they are pretty close to the source material. There's probably some great examples on daz too, but i agree they can be few and far between.
My only complaint is not being able to find my content easily, particularly older stuff. I'm a fairly new user, and I spend more time looking for stuff than actually rendering it. If it's in the store, shouldn't it also be easy to find in the program? That's just basic customer service. Please, put the meta data into the products so it's easy to find everything. Yes, I could do that myself and I have for some items, but I don't have the time to hand enter everything I own that isn't showing up (and I have bought a LOT this year.) I feel this should be part of the finished product, even the older stuff.
Other than that, I'm very happy with the software, content and community. Love it all!
I know how to please EVERYONE, it's easy.
Going to rename my dog EVERYONE.
I use DIM to find something specific if I can't locate it normally. If required I uninstall and install to a temp library to locate it, which rarely needs doing.
Biggest help would be the item in library matching the name of the product - far too often they don't.
I don't like Daz Connect.
Unfortunately, I am now too used to node-based shading setup to go back to Daz's way. Blender's node system is wonderful and, as it is all-in-one package, I can start from modelling to compositing on one spot. It's too convenient for me.
I also like the fact that I can dictate how many samples (quality) to render with Blender.
I do use Daz stuido as a character poser at this point and then export them into Blender and set up shaders independently.
the problem with that though is that new users have no clue on how it all works which can definietly lead to frustration. I firmly believe any user getting into using DS or poser for the first time needs to have a basic understanding on modeling , polys, and mesh and what goes along with it because it will help them in the long run quite a bit. Coming from a modeling background long before using poser and DS, I am amazed daily at how well it all works and fits together considering that it is all just virtual playdoh (mesh)
As for the forums, this place is extremely tame compared to most other forums, too much so at times.
As for the DIY mentality, personally, I highly doubt DAZ wants users to take that initiative as it will take away from sales. I suspect they are very happy for everyone to stick with the plug and play status quo and let the PAs keep doing their thing. I wonder how many actually think about how things would be if there was no DAZ studio, only the content in the store in .FBX (rigging) or .OBJ (non rigged) format. If that was the case, prices would be much higher and they would be no different than turbosquid, Humster3D or Flat Pyramid.
DAZ appears to be expanding their user base.
More people using DAZ, more people on the forums. More people on the forums, more chance for people to voice their discontent with one thing or another.
The danger is to not put a lot of weight into any single complaint. One person hated the cage skirt because it was too long - total waste of money. One person hated the outline render engine because he couldn't load it properly and couldn't wait a day to get technical help. While legitimate complaints, I guess, for themselves, neither speaks to a larger problem.
If the complaints are about quality of render output, access to the program or constant crashes, across a wider spectrum than just one or two people, THEN you worry. The problems access the website, for example - THAT is a real problem that effects users. I suspect either its a traffic problem - too many people on too small a bandwidth - or its something worse, which seems to be more common across the internet and not just here. Anyway, I don't see complaints that are beyond the individual user, so its either a matter of taste or a matter of user inexperience or assumputions.
The Daz thing reminds me a lot of motherhood in some ways - no manual, everyone's experience is different and there's always someone ready to tell you what you ought to be doing :) You start on day one feeling clueless and out of your depth, but muddle along until one day you realise that you've got more than half an idea what you're doing and that no-one has more influence on the final outcome than you do. You just take on board what makes sense and ignore the rest, barely realising that you're growing in confidence and knowledge every day. The forums are where the comparison stops - anyone who thinks this place can get vitriolic has never seen and survived Netmums :)
Regarding DIY and kitbashing, I think Daz treasure the products that let us stray from straight 'plug and play' as much as we do, because people who produce products that help us to create our own characters, terrains and environments etc are what keeps it interesting and keep us coming back for more of the other stuff. I'm fairly sure I'd have lost interest ages ago if we were just limited to what the PAs can produce, but I don't mind buying the more versatile stuff if I can get creative with it myself. Win/win for Daz and for me.
My reason for going DIY path was due to my specific model needs. My primary renders are all sci-fi and none of sci-fi models out on market pleased me. I have my own philosophy and lore when it comes to spaceships and stations that none of them would fit it.
So, I was forced to make my own.
I realize it would take too much time to do everything on my own, so I do Daz models when I can. I hardly use textures that come with it though.
Yes, it has perceived shortcomings like the lack of mesh creation and editing tools, but at the same time is that really an issue with the existence of software like Blender or Hexagon? Export to Wavefront Object format.and import into your favorite mesh editing tool, and then reverse the process with the finished mesh for rigging or whatever.