Tell me why 3Delight is awesome, please?

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  • Those zombies look like they are trying to escape a Michael Bolton concert. Good job.
  • HaslorHaslor Posts: 408

    Didn't you see the Movie, Alice doesn't live here any more,

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 15,088

    Anyone ever see Pontypool? Man.

    Some scary zombie-esque elements while not being actual zombies.

     

  • Haslor said:

    Didn't you see the Movie, Alice doesn't live here any more,

    She was also trying to escape the Michael Bolton concert and left no forwarding address.
  • Stryder87Stryder87 Posts: 899

    Anyone ever see Pontypool? Man.

    Some scary zombie-esque elements while not being actual zombies.

     

    That was an awesome movie!

  • dracorndracorn Posts: 2,363
    Haslor said:

    I promised a Zombie Hoard and I am delivering, after a few false starts and a little head banging, really bad words and Real Life setting its bottom on my keyboard and demanding to be dealt with.

    The scenes below has 1515 zombies. Okay, I know they look like Genesis 3 Females, with Lucille Zombie and Lavinia Vampire for Genesis 3 Female skins and in basic undies, but your all artists use your imagination. It is a work in progress and with a change of clothes, they will look the part.

    So how about render times, I got those.

    Stats first:

    The base of the environment is the Original TerraDome system from RDNA. I am using Zone1, two Zone2 sections , two Zone3 and Sky-dome; at 300% of scale. The surfaces are using the original texture images, but recreated as the RDL shaders. There is no flora in this WIP, but will be adding some. Lighting is supplied by DimensionTheory's Luminance HDRIs for DAZ Studio with the intensity reduced, to get that almost dark dusky feel to the image. (I do have another set done with AoA's Lights)

    The big set piece is Moonshine's Diner, with Fallen Textures, I added the inner wall but it need to have some grime thrown on it. I didn't use the Fallen set, due an issue with the Texture. (If someone could double check that, I will put in a Bug Report on it.) The roof sign lights and the neon rim ring lights, I recreated the Surfaces as Surface Lights with the Shader Mixer. All Renders are with 3Delight, at 1920x1080, on an i5 4670K with 32GB. 

    Scene Items :

    Nodes : 5,185

    Lights : 2

    Cameras : 12

    World-Space Modifiers : 0

    Scene Geometry : Active / Base

    Total Vertices : 1,872,557 / 1,327,164

    Total Triangles : 14,750 / 14,750

    Total Quads : 1,583,170 / 1,109,434

    Total Faces : 1,597,920 / 1,124,184

    Primary Selection :

    Name : Genesis3Female

    Label : Prine A 174cm

    Class : DzFigure

    Vertices : 17,418 / 17,418

    Triangles : 0 / 0

    Quads : 17,000 / 17,000

    Total Faces : 17,000 / 17,000

    You will notice that I have turned off the Sub-D, which reduces the active number faces from 68,000  to 17,000 per G3F.

     

    Total Rendering Time for 1500 Instances Plus+ Camera 6.png: 24 minutes 9.32 seconds

    Total Rendering Timefor 1500 Instances Plus+ Camera 2.png: 27 minutes 9.3 seconds

    Total Rendering Time for 1500 Instances Plus+ Camera overhead.png: 20 minutes 40.82 seconds

     

    So there you go, If anyone is interesting how I kept the Zombies out of the Diner, the Differences between UltraScatter and Instances Plus+, or want a few tips on how to deal with 1500 Zombies and all the other little things I learned along the way. I'll happily do that in a separate tread. But tell me today. Tonight at Midnight I start writing for NaNoWriMo.

    But I think this proves you can do a believeable Hoard of Zombies, Irate Potesters, or Adoring fans, with 15 to 20 Primes and a hundred or some instances of each and using 3Delight Render it in time for Lunch! Which I need to get to.

    *Edited to take out the table

    That's great!  I love it!

    Now that Ultimate Zombie for G3M is out, you can make the whole thing co-ed.

  • exstarsisexstarsis Posts: 2,128

    Wow! Very impressive. I tried to do a 3DL render for the Atmosphere newbie contest but.... fog takes a long time to render and moody lighting is HARD, dear god.

  • HaslorHaslor Posts: 408
    edited November 2016

    Wow! Very impressive. I tried to do a 3DL render for the Atmosphere newbie contest but.... fog takes a long time to render and moody lighting is HARD, dear god.

    Fore these renders I'm using this HDRI package with the intensity reduced. For the final I will reduce the ambience on the sky dome so it isn't so bright and the sign lights will pop out a little more, so it looks like near dark. The sky texture is DantesInferno from the TerrorDome, for original TerraDome. 

    It would be nice of Daz 3D if they would rework the Original TerraDome for, those who want a 3Delight environment more extensive than Millennium Environment, but not as elaborate as TerraDome 3. RDNA also had the Microcosm and macrocosm Series, which was sort a Precursor to the TerraDome. I've used those to make land features like, hillocks, mounds and large rock formations sticking from the ground and such, within TerraDome. I made one for this it is in the right foreground of the parking lot. Basically it is a fast way to change from Grass to dirt road, which is still something I have to figure out, adding Dirt Ruts into AoA's Grass Shader, so you can have a over grown road. Like this (overlay but this is a MDL brick) so I could have this: (BTW that is part of the Oregon Trail)

    Maybe Age of Armor could add it to his shader, I could do it, but if I do only I can use it, if Age of Armor does it it is an upgrade for everyone. (personally I like this plan) With the NoGrass Mask, I could have gone for longer and more varried Grass, as I could have masked out the parking lot and road. 

    I have created a RDL Root brick that sits between two DS Default Material Bricks and the Surface Brick which use a Mask Image to choose which Material is selected.

    I was thinking of all sorts of things it could be good for. You could have Metal and plastic. or Metal and Dirt. Shiny metal and rusted Metal. Each Surface supplies Material Color, Opacity and Root, they are Mixed in the Brick and come out according to the Mask. I'll do the Displacement Mixer soon. you can grab the SurfaceMask Brick. Trythis (Note: I'm trying to find a better place to share this from, please bear with me) 

    The Sample here is of the "Wood" Shader which comes with Default Resources for Daz Studio and Digital Lite Design Latex Shaders (which uses AoA's SSS Shader.) I dropped the Opacity on the Latex shader so you could see each Material is fully controllable with in and independent from each other. have fun with it.

    Little Zombie WIP update: Yesterday I threw some Flora at the Zone1, which first required me to do a Little house keeping, Naming Cameras (Work North face or Shot Wide angel Parking lot); Resizing and repositioning the whole TerraDome set, moving the Diner sub-scene; and then I had to move the Zombies. I learned I had made a mistake, I failed to ensure that I have all that in order before I started adding Zombies or Orcs. The Plants are not an issue the Zombies were a different story all together.

    I also learned to Love and Loath UltraScatter (more on that later), as I learned a few more things about UltraScatter and it's Distribution Map

    This is a very Cool feature. After almost three hours, I had added 10,000 plants (shrubs, bushes, and a few flowers). And decided to use AoA's Grass Shader, seeing I am using 3Delight, I can get a fuzzy field. with some variation of height, clumping and other factors. 

    I am in the process of dropping about 2500 instanced rocks of various sizes into the zone. So far so good. And I am thinking of seeing what would happen if were to add both sets fo Zombies in for a total of 3000 zombies?

    Camera 1 with with every thing.png
    1920 x 1080 - 3M
    Reduced Masked.jpg
    900 x 900 - 65K
    dual Surface Test.png
    1000 x 1000 - 1M
    SurfaceMask Brick Usage.JPG
    868 x 794 - 105K
    Post edited by Haslor on
  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 11,715
    ArtisanS said:

    Well, I guess you can make both renderengines look good and bad but rendering the same scene in iRay and 3Delight by only changing the shaders is a bit like taking a Lamaghini to plough a field. You can reach "photorealism" (ask ManRay what that means) in both render engines as the dear lads and lasses who worked on a string of Potter movies demonstrated for 3Delight and Stonemason (who has worked on films like Cloud Atlas and Jupiter Ascending, and is a bit to modest about it), proves on a regular basis here for iRay. Now this work by Belarussian Gleb Alexandrov:

    http://www.creativeshrimp.com/gallery

    Is among the most photorealistic, jawdropping work I know......done in Blender Cycles.....

    In my experience however the workflow towards iRay is much more organic, since you can render an iRay scene in the viewport (if you have the right hardware which price/performance rate is growing each month). What I hate is that I'm forced to use NVidia hardware (Cycles can run on AMD cards of the newer variety as well) but that is trade of I was willing to make. What are the advantages of iRay to me:

    - Fast feedback (card dependent)

    - Easy lighting using true IBL

    - Easy access to shader based lighting (as Gleb said you can't have to many light sources)

    - Reasonably well intergrated workflow with awsome tools like Substance Designer and Painter......which more and more PA are using.

    - Height and Normal maps integrate well in the DAZ iRay Übershader

    - Metallicity and Base maps do so also....

    - Roughness is a bit of strugle that needs some fiddeling to get the shaders to work the way I want

    - The basic lights need to be cranked up pretty far in order to render right in iRay

    - Posing using the iRay rendering in the viewport is cumbersome at best

    - A pathway for direct implementation of .MDL files in a controlled way would also be benneficial......since Sub Des and Paint can spit out these files and this is a great way to intergrate them in Unity for instance (or Unreal).

    Sometimes lighting falls flat (in both engines) without an apperent reason but never without a reason......the most overlooked reason in those cases is the headlight that stays on as IBL is not considered a lightsource by the DAZ iRay render engine, at least that seams to be my experience. Personally I think that DAZ 3D as it stands now is trying to please both crowds but is not doing a real good service to either of them, since iRay and 3Delight are just to different to live under the same roof or use the same viewport engine for that matter. iRay would be awsome if the DAZ 3D viewport gave a more accurate view of your scene without using iRay in the viewport (can be slow when posing and lighting). 3Delight would be awsome if the basic shaders became a it more elaborate and diverse and we wouldn't have to use the (rather complex but well documented) AoA shaders for almost everything since these shader feel a lot like being targetted to skin (I sometimes even use them for creating skin in iRay, allthough I'm not supposed to do that).

    Greets, ArtisanS

    You do? How? I never got on with 3Delight; I left it behind when Iray appeared, but love the results folks get with it.

    dracorn said:
    RAMWolff said:
    RAMWolff said:

    A two week render.. no way.  Uh Uh!  That's crazy unless it's a commision project that's was bringing in big bucks.  YIKES! 

    It was for a job, and the setup was insanely complex.  There were several hundred point lights, millions of polygons, lots of glass (both transparent and translucent), shiny/reflective marble floors and more.  I used a machine with 128GB of RAM to render it.  This was pre-Iray although there isn't a GPU with enough VRAM to hold the thing.

    Kendall  

    WOW. you must have a killer rig Ken.  Wish you could show us a tiny version of this render you did. 

     

    Unfortunately it is not mine to show. The render is part of a very long competative bid process and is "under wraps" until it is needed. I can say that the main model was created in RevIT and exported for rendering.

    As for the "rig", it is one of many in my racks and is not the "biggest" especially since I brought most of the other servers back from the co-location facility. One of the machines is capable of holding 2TB of RAM (i can only afford to put 256GB in it).

    Kendall

    Seriously.  I can remember when the idea of 1 GB of RAM was insane. 

    1GB?

    I paid over £400 for 4MB for my Amiga.

  • JQPJQP Posts: 520
    Dreamfarmer, I wish I could remember all the details, but it's been a while, and my memory ain't what it used to be. I do recall that dropping objects into a group caused 4.9 to crash for me. Basically, that makes groups useless, and that in turn made 4.9 useless. I use groups in every scene. I checked it several times, to make sure it wasn't just a hiccup. Restarted DS and reproduced the problem a couple times, and then uninstalled.
  • JQPJQP Posts: 520
    And no, it had nothing to do with 3DL, except in preventing me from enjoying 4.9's supposed improvements in that area.
  • HaslorHaslor Posts: 408
    JQP said:
    Dreamfarmer, I wish I could remember all the details, but it's been a while, and my memory ain't what it used to be. I do recall that dropping objects into a group caused 4.9 to crash for me. Basically, that makes groups useless, and that in turn made 4.9 useless. I use groups in every scene. I checked it several times, to make sure it wasn't just a hiccup. Restarted DS and reproduced the problem a couple times, and then uninstalled.

    I am using DAZ Studio 4.9.2.70 and right at the moment I have several thousand items in groups, that are nested within groups. (See Attached Images) There are Regular Groups and Instance Groups. Instance Groups will group like instances together and then appear to be one Asset. and I am using them both for the scene. Normally the only the one UberEnvironment2 Light and if I have more than one light, I would have the lights within a group. (Zone1 is currently out of the TD1Group. I am placing Rock in the sceen right now and you need to have the Target Object and the Asset bing Instanced at the root of the scene. If the Target is in a group, you get floating rocks, plants and Zombies, No one wants floating Zombies.

    If I couldn't use groups, this scene would be insane, the plants alone are over 10000 items. There are also 2500 rocks in several instance and 1500 Zombies are grouped in hundreds and each of those groups are within a group. Moving them would have been meant a day at best, not the five minutes it took me. and I actually made several moves with them to get them in to the right location, after my scene clean up.

    Now I have had trouble when deleting a group and it contains both Primes and Instances and the Prime gets deleted first. That is why I keep Primes and Instances in separate groups, so if I am deleted them I delete the Instances, then their Prime. That comes from having a large group fo unassociated Instances.

    I'd try groups again, and watch exactly what you are doing when it bombs. Groups are the only way to control a large amount of assets.

    nicstt said:
    dracorn said:
    RAMWolff said:
    RAMWolff said:

    A two week render.. no way.  Uh Uh!  That's crazy unless it's a commision project that's was bringing in big bucks.  YIKES! 

    It was for a job, and the setup was insanely complex.  There were several hundred point lights, millions of polygons, lots of glass (both transparent and translucent), shiny/reflective marble floors and more.  I used a machine with 128GB of RAM to render it.  This was pre-Iray although there isn't a GPU with enough VRAM to hold the thing.

    Kendall  

    WOW. you must have a killer rig Ken.  Wish you could show us a tiny version of this render you did. 

     

    Unfortunately it is not mine to show. The render is part of a very long competative bid process and is "under wraps" until it is needed. I can say that the main model was created in RevIT and exported for rendering.

    As for the "rig", it is one of many in my racks and is not the "biggest" especially since I brought most of the other servers back from the co-location facility. One of the machines is capable of holding 2TB of RAM (i can only afford to put 256GB in it).

    Kendall

    Seriously.  I can remember when the idea of 1 GB of RAM was insane. 

    1GB?

    I paid over £400 for 4MB for my Amiga.

    The first 16K for my original Apple][ cost more than the 32GB I bought for my current machine. 

    I remember the memory for the Apple][ being something like 140 USA, so 48K was 420 ish and I think the 32GB was 130 ish.

    Current Scene Stats.JPG
    225 x 376 - 22K
    Current Groups.JPG
    293 x 633 - 45K
  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 41,925

    ...I can now buy 128 GB of DDR4 quad channel memory for what a 24 GB kit of DDR3 Tri channel memory cost me when I built my current system.

  • I can't tell you why because it just isn't !

  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,667
    edited November 2016

    I can't tell you why because it just isn't !

     

    But 3DL *IS* awesome! 3DL allowed me to author custom shaders (applied dynamically via scripts) to render out all my analysis passes:

     

    These analysis passes are then passed to illustrators (proprietary software) to be rendered in various styles using fractal algorithms:

    I simply could not accomplish this using Iray.

    - Greg

    analysis-passes.jpg
    660 x 1716 - 480K
    Post edited by algovincian on
  • I was being sarcastic !

    Once they get the render passes going I think you will get an even better result and something that you can use directly.

    But who knows when :(

  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,667

    I was being sarcastic !

    Once they get the render passes going I think you will get an even better result and something that you can use directly.

    But who knows when :(

    Oh - doh! My bad . . .

    Sometimes I miss the good-old spoken word and hearing people's voices/seeing their faces. Speaking of which, a vent server with channels that parralelled the forum/threads would be interesting . . .

    I've thought about trying to adapt my workflow to utilize Iray, but it makes my little brain hurt lol. How about a version of 3DL that makes use of cudas?

    - Greg

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 41,925
    edited November 2016

    ...@ algovincian:  Nice work there.  One of the features of 3DL that I like is there are also custom shaders available through the store that can be used to create some very nice effects in the actual render pass.

    Post edited by kyoto kid on
  • HaslorHaslor Posts: 408

    Oh I just remember, there was a question of realistic testures in 3Delight, I was going to show what could be done.

    I have three images for you. But first a little tech info: The ground plane is from RDNA's MacroCosm the Texture is AoA's Grass, the Castle Gate is from the Ancient Ruins MegaPack from RDNA, which has several levels of ruin and a lot of material zones. in the background is HDRI dome in two of the shots, but the third is using the MacroCosm's SkyDome. All of the Castle wall pieces have been scalled up by 107.5 percent, to bring them into scale with the Actors. All the torches are using Area Light Surfaces.

    I was going to re-render this image, due to the black faces and wagon, but I'm leaving it here, to illuminate an issue. This was due to my cache not emptying and the data there were corrupt. If something funky is going on with your Render, emptying the cache is a good first step. This is especially true when working with shader building or doing a content creation. It also illustrates why it is a good idea to do product creation in a separate folder from your Main Library or Runtime. With the Daz Connects content delivery system placing each product in its own folder, also saves someone (or yourself) over writing assets. (No, I have Never done that... ah today... umm yet.) But I digress:

    After sending a pack of about twenty Diffuse Image through Crazy Bump and creating a Normal and Specular Maps; I reapplied them to the surfaces. While doing this I changed the Material Lighting model from Plastic to Metalic. After that was done, I clicked render, with the same Lighting and Camera.

    The Normals and Specular maps give the castle walls more character, they look as if they have been there for a couple of hundred years, thus adding to the illusion of realism.

    But this scene is actually from a book, I am working on, and it happens at Night, so let's turn off the work lights and see what we get from thow surface light torches. (If you haven't guess I like Shadows and Light)

    There is a mage light ball in the center of the scene supplying most of the light for this scene, though there is a Distant Light acting like the moon.

    This is a scene where I want to try that new Surface Mask brick with Grass and Dirt shaders. So I have a dirt road with a ruts and and grass in the middle.

    For some reason memory for this scene is up at 31GB, so I am going to be rebuilding this scene from scratch. the Zombie scene is less than 15GB. It could be that all 15 Prime Zombies are G3F, while this scene has nine V4, three M4 and three of four G2F's, not to mention four Dragons and two Horses. But I think my problem here has to do with the fact, I have tested too many things and the file my have orphaned bits and they may be caused issues. (I am pretty sure that is what happened with the black wagon and faces.) I will have to check on that.

    So you can get realistic surfaces from 3Delight.

  • I was being sarcastic !

    Once they get the render passes going I think you will get an even better result and something that you can use directly.

    But who knows when :(

    Oh - doh! My bad . . .

    Sometimes I miss the good-old spoken word and hearing people's voices/seeing their faces. Speaking of which, a vent server with channels that parralelled the forum/threads would be interesting . . .

    I've thought about trying to adapt my workflow to utilize Iray, but it makes my little brain hurt lol. How about a version of 3DL that makes use of cudas?

    - Greg

    I've often wondered if substance designer could something like you've doing, it has a huge array of geometry filters.

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
     

    I've thought about trying to adapt my workflow to utilize Iray, but it makes my little brain hurt lol. How about a version of 3DL that makes use of cudas?

    - Greg

    Maybe some day in the future, 3DL will have a GPU assissted renderer, but it would most likely be OpenCL based and not specifically CUDA.  But last time I spent any time on the 3DL forums, there were no plans for it...

  • wowiewowie Posts: 2,029
    I've thought about trying to adapt my workflow to utilize Iray, but it makes my little brain hurt lol. How about a version of 3DL that makes use of cudas?

    - Greg

    Out of topic, but two very promising OpenCL renderers for me.

    Indigo Renderer

    http://www.indigorenderer.com - new beta 4.0.46 Beta Release

    Radeon Prorender

    http://support.radeonprorender.com/support/home -

    Going to be Maxon Cinema4D default GPU rendering in the future. Should be coming to Blender as well.

    Already put in a request to do an uber shader type of material (already available in the 3dsmax version) though probably going to be targeted for converting from Arnold's alStandard or alSurface. Fully support node based shader creation of course. Pretty nice and fast. Haven't played around with the various GI method though (again, only available in the 3dsmax version at this time).

    Cycles OpenCL path is also going to get some much needed attention.

    Since it uses OSL (Open Shading Language), it could very well be possible to import 3delight OSL code/shader into Cycles (and other OSL supporting renderers - Vray, Renderman 21 onwards, Arnold). Also, they generally will use Disney's BSDF, so even if you can't import the shader, materials setup should be similar (PBR conventions). Nice to know the Poser port added the ability to use main memory to store scenes, so that's similar to out of core approach used by some renderers.

    Don't know if DAZ Studio is going to enable OSL support though.

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