Dear PA's - Eyebrows aren't Mirrors

wolf359

Novica said:

Lyoness said:

 

I hope not. I would prefer a variety, with symmetrical brows for some of the models. Not everyone agrees with the OP. I don't. 

 

 

+1

bad4u

xyer0 said:

Sometimes I like painted on hair (unless its the only option). But divamakeup, you're right, it is a bummer when an otherwise useful skin texture has mirror eyebrows. Since my go-to character vendors Raiya and Daz Originals Base do not do this (anymore) I no longer have much concern about it.

That's not always true, check out Tween Josie 7.. it depends on the artist who did the textures. I was disappointed this still goes through QA nowadays.

Taoz

JD_Mortal said:

I am still curious why eyebrows are on SKIN... That is a 1990's trick. I thought we were past that. Like people who put make-up on skins. Skin should just be skin, period. Eyebrows and lipstick and blush and scars and face-stubble should all be on another rendering layer. Adjustable, removalbe, editable and easy to manipulate without destroying the original image. (Destroying by re-encoding as a JPG again, turning it into a copy of a copy, which degrades image quality.)

+1

And as for symmetry, it's easier to change/morph symmetry into asymmetry than the opposite, so I'd prefer symmetry as the default. And if you use a separate layer for brows it shouldn't be a lot of work to include both a symmetrical and an asymmetrical set.

wolf359

"it depends on the artist who did the textures. I was disappointed this still goes through QA nowadays."

To be fair why would perfectly mirrored eye brows or perfect left right symmetry in general be flagged in QA?
it  is not  something that can be reasonably argued makes the Character package somehow broken or  defective.

nicstt

divamakeup said:

Eyebrows aren't mirrors. Nothing, imo, throws off a closeup of a face faster than a cut and paste eyebrow. Even the most carefully groomed eyebrow isn't going to look EXACTLY like the other eyebrow. 

I realize that many, even most, take the time to create subtle differences between the two brows - and that's much appreciated. To those of you who are copy and pasting the same brow and just flipping it over to the other side without any changes or mods, please please stop - it does not look good. First, it makes you look lazy (and considering how much time and work you put into creating your character and making nice looking skin texture, I know you aren't lazy) and second it just really makes the character look off. Even if people can't place what is "off" about it, the mirror brow is uncanny and unsettling. You wouldn't mirror freckles or skin spots, please stop mirroring eyebrows. 

I made some geometry adjustments and morphs (the morphs are subtle) for the G2F Lacitis Imagery eyebrows; I converted them to G3, but suspect what I made would work regardless. They allow subtle changes and with more than one material zone, parts can be faded, or completely invisible. I use them alot after removing painted on eyebrows.

Gator

wolf359 said:

Novica said:

Lyoness said:

 

I hope not. I would prefer a variety, with symmetrical brows for some of the models. Not everyone agrees with the OP. I don't. 

 

 

+1

 

+2 

Gator

divamakeup said:

scott762_948aec318a said:

divamakeup said:

scott762_948aec318a said:

A few things probably.

First, faces that are more symmetric are generally considered more beautiful.  Second, it's easier to model symmetric meshes.  

I'd think it would be pretty easy to shift the textures a bit in Photoshop, or use some morphs to break up the symmetry.  There are even asymmetric face morphs available.

1) Not everyone has Photoshop (many do - but many, too, don't)

2) Not everyone knows how to make modifications like that

3) Expecting your customers to make modifications to skin textures just to get rid of lazy looking Cut and Paste eyebrows isn't cool - at all

As a customer that appreciates the beauty, I'd rather have the symmetry.  This is another case of you can't make everyone happy.  I suspect the pretty & symmetrical are more popular and sell more, so that's what we get.

Not everyone knows how to use morphs?  That's a pretty basic thing with Daz Studio.
 

Ummm That's not at all what I was talking about. You where talking about making TEXTURE MODIFICATIONS in Photoshop and that's what I was responding to (hence the bolded section in my response to you). 

And there is a difference between the beauty of symmetry and COPY AND PASTING the exact eyebrow from one side of the face to the other. But hey, if you like copy and pasted brows - more power to you. I doubt most people do. Creating subtle differences in the brows, even just tweaking a few hairs, can break up the uncanny look of using the same exact brow and still keep that "beautiful symmetry" look. 

I meant that there are morphs available if you aren't willing to use/buy Photoshop.  There is also a really good free alternative GIMP BTW.  As some others already mentioned, it's a lot easier to break symmetry rather than trying to create it.

 

TykeyStudios

Novica said:

Lyoness said:

We're trying. 

 

I hope not. I would prefer a variety, with symmetrical brows for some of the models. Not everyone agrees with the OP. I don't. 

Yeah, I feel the same. I've been using DAZ models for almost 15 years and I'm more than happy with what I've purchased from every PA here and other places. And I love postwork. Photoshop's a lot of fun. I had no idea what I was doing when I first started doing all this 3d stuff. I learned as I went along. A post editing software is no different. I think Photoshop CS2 is free from Adobe. There's also Gimp. CorelDraw and Paint Shop Pro are cheaper alternatives. I've used all the above except GIMP. I recently upgraded to Photoshop CC. For ten bucks a month you get a very nice program. Some disagree with Adobe. I don't. Personally, the use of a photo-editing program is a needed thing. There will always be things which would need to be tweaked after a render finishes. I'm no good at painting hair. 'Fixing' hair is easy.

The PAs go through enough in my opinion. It would be just about impossible for the PAs and DAZ to please everyone. 

 

EDIT: I wanted to add this...a couple of years ago (might have even been in the old DAZ forums) a member was complaining about one of Jepes' male characters and how the face was assymetrical. If I recall correctly, the conversation got a little heated. Personally, the character looks fine. I used him a couple months ago and it at first left me bewildered at what I had done. I thought I messed up on my dials. I eventually recalled the old forum thread. It's such a subtle difference, but one a person picks up on when you see the face up close. So like I said, DAZ and the PAs can't please everyone. 

Lyoness

tykey said:

 So like I said, DAZ and the PAs can't please everyone. 

truth!

scorpio

Novica said:

Lyoness said:

We're trying. 

All I can do is share the info and let things happen as they will.  TBH, I prefer assymetrical brows and the girls that I make from now on will reflect that.

I hope not. I would prefer a variety, with symmetrical brows for some of the models. Not everyone agrees with the OP. I don't. 

I agree, I do get rather annoyed when one opinion is floated as the only opinion - at the risk of losing variety.

 

Mistara

i'd like to see eyebrows treated as like a make up option, different olor eyebrows and lashes to come close to whatever hair prop we rendering. and a no eyebrows option.

alas, masking tool hard to mask eyebrows in a texture editor, 

nicstt

It takes a few minutes to remove eyebrows, of course, there is also the need to remove them from other maps too.

Mistara

masking to change the color too hard for me  >.< looks blocky. not masking at the subpixel level

bad4u

wolf359 said:

"it depends on the artist who did the textures. I was disappointed this still goes through QA nowadays."

To be fair why would perfectly mirrored eye brows or perfect left right symmetry in general be flagged in QA?
it  is not  something that can be reasonably argued makes the Character package somehow broken or  defective.

Please don't quote me out of context, I was talking about a specific DAZ Original Base figure only, not any character packages or PA products. And I was not thinking of 'broken or defective', but 'quality'.

outrider42

I recall the time I asked for LIE eyebrows, and people jumped on me for making such a suggestion.

TykeyStudios

outrider42 said:

I recall the time I asked for LIE eyebrows, and people jumped on me for making such a suggestion.

WHY WOULD YOU ASK FOR SUCH A THING??!!! 

Daywalker Designs

bad4u said:

wolf359 said:

"it depends on the artist who did the textures. I was disappointed this still goes through QA nowadays."

To be fair why would perfectly mirrored eye brows or perfect left right symmetry in general be flagged in QA?
it  is not  something that can be reasonably argued makes the Character package somehow broken or  defective.

Please don't quote me out of context, I was talking about a specific DAZ Original Base figure only, not any character packages or PA products. And I was not thinking of 'broken or defective', but 'quality'.

And yet most QA folks consider "broken or defective" to be a bigger issue than cosmetic appearance and that is what they focus on. They also likely assume that if PAs wanted an asymmetric appearance to morphs and textures, that's how they would be done. Believe me, I deal with QA regularly in my day job so I have some idea what they expect, even if it's not always what's possible to accomplish consistently.

RAMWolff

As a hairdresser in real life I notice asymmetry all the time esp when working around ears.  I do my highlights from the crown down the center of the back of the head, then to the right and match the last foil (usually with what I call a feather blend out of the last two foils) from the center foil.  Then to the left and it never ever matches correctly.  Ears, for me are the dead giveaway about just how asymmetrical our faces are but you can't do that with this sort of work, esp when needing the face symmetrical to make facial morphs.  The asymmetry has to be achieved with split morphs and then perhaps presets made with those.  As for eyebrows .... yea, even the most groomed ones are going to have SOME differences but it's allot more noticeable with "wild" brows.  Again in this business if an artist were to make eyebrows completely asymmetrical there would be those that would complain about that as everyone has their opinions about perfection vs truly real life.  Sometimes an artist just can't win to save their lives!  lol

bad4u

daywalker03 said:

bad4u said:

wolf359 said:

"it depends on the artist who did the textures. I was disappointed this still goes through QA nowadays."

To be fair why would perfectly mirrored eye brows or perfect left right symmetry in general be flagged in QA?
it  is not  something that can be reasonably argued makes the Character package somehow broken or  defective.

Please don't quote me out of context, I was talking about a specific DAZ Original Base figure only, not any character packages or PA products. And I was not thinking of 'broken or defective', but 'quality'.

And yet most QA folks consider "broken or defective" to be a bigger issue than cosmetic appearance and that is what they focus on. They also likely assume that if PAs wanted an asymmetric appearance to morphs and textures, that's how they would be done. Believe me, I deal with QA regularly in my day job so I have some idea what they expect, even if it's not always what's possible to accomplish consistently.

And again.. NOT talking about PA products, that's why I didn't like to be quoted out of context.

Whatever..

Daywalker Designs

bad4u said:

daywalker03 said:

bad4u said:

wolf359 said:

"it depends on the artist who did the textures. I was disappointed this still goes through QA nowadays."

To be fair why would perfectly mirrored eye brows or perfect left right symmetry in general be flagged in QA?
it  is not  something that can be reasonably argued makes the Character package somehow broken or  defective.

Please don't quote me out of context, I was talking about a specific DAZ Original Base figure only, not any character packages or PA products. And I was not thinking of 'broken or defective', but 'quality'.

And yet most QA folks consider "broken or defective" to be a bigger issue than cosmetic appearance and that is what they focus on. They also likely assume that if PAs wanted an asymmetric appearance to morphs and textures, that's how they would be done. Believe me, I deal with QA regularly in my day job so I have some idea what they expect, even if it's not always what's possible to accomplish consistently.

And again.. NOT talking about PA products, that's why I didn't like to be quoted out of context.

Whatever..

Replace "PAs" in my previous post with "DAZ" and read it again; the end result is that the artist that created the model and textures is the one that QA assumes had a specific reason for doing things the way they did and thus they don't consider the unnatural appearance to be a problem like customers do.

L'Adair

nicstt said:

It takes a few minutes to remove eyebrows, of course, there is also the need to remove them from other maps too.

Zev0 and Draagonstorm are working on a "Brow Remover" that would address that:

Think of it as an automated heal or stamp tool in Photoshop for Studio. It works on V4, M4, K4, G1, G2F & G2M, G3F & G3M, and on all supported UV maps. We hope to have it wrapped up by PA Sale in Sept (if we get it to work the way we want lol). Still lots to refine and test.

Whether you prefer fibermesh eyebrows or to add your own brows in LIE, the brow remover should make it easy for everyone. No "photoshop" skills required.

outrider42 said:

I recall the time I asked for LIE eyebrows, and people jumped on me for making such a suggestion.

I had a similar experience when suggesting there be a material zone for eyebrows. Apparently, though, it's not a simple matter of switching face maps, but would cause issues with seams between the zones...? But no-brow face options and LIE would be effectively the same thing, without any sort of seam issues.

nicstt

L'Adair said:

nicstt said:

It takes a few minutes to remove eyebrows, of course, there is also the need to remove them from other maps too.

Zev0 and Draagonstorm are working on a "Brow Remover" that would address that:

Think of it as an automated heal or stamp tool in Photoshop for Studio. It works on V4, M4, K4, G1, G2F & G2M, G3F & G3M, and on all supported UV maps. We hope to have it wrapped up by PA Sale in Sept (if we get it to work the way we want lol). Still lots to refine and test.

Whether you prefer fibermesh eyebrows or to add your own brows in LIE, the brow remover should make it easy for everyone. No "photoshop" skills required.

outrider42 said:

I recall the time I asked for LIE eyebrows, and people jumped on me for making such a suggestion.

I had a similar experience when suggesting there be a material zone for eyebrows. Apparently, though, it's not a simple matter of switching face maps, but would cause issues with seams between the zones...? But no-brow face options and LIE would be effectively the same thing, without any sort of seam issues.

Yeh, I've seen the thread; might get it, but as many of my characters (well the base characters) are now browless, it's by no means a certainty.

All I did in the example below, is change the colours to match, once I'd removed they eyebrows from E&J Rita; working on the lips on that character atm, since I've changed the skin texture, the seam on the lips is visible.

The eyebrows have 6 material zones and a number of morphs, some for shape, and some to move hairs to make them look less tidy.

JoeQuick

I wonder if these would autoconvert on up from Genesis, through Genesis 2 to Genesis 3?  

You just have to make sure that autofollow is on for the eyebrow morphs and bones

http://www.sharecg.com/v/62327/gallery/21/DAZ-Studio/Free-Genesis-Fibermesh-Eyebrow

Subtropic Pixel

Monkey-wrench time.

Do you know that a lot of ladies don't have eyebrows?  It's true.  They actually have tattooed eyebrows.  One of my good friends did this many years ago and you really don't notice it until it comes up, usually in a conversation about tats.

So "painted on" is not always unrealistic.

Lyoness

outrider42 said:

I recall the time I asked for LIE eyebrows, and people jumped on me for making such a suggestion.

I seem to recall that conversation and it made me re-examine my work.  AND I CHANGED IT.

So just because it seems like you were dumped on, doesn't mean that no one took you seriously.  That discussion helped change my whole approach.

L'Adair

nicstt said:

L'Adair said:

nicstt said:

It takes a few minutes to remove eyebrows, of course, there is also the need to remove them from other maps too.

Zev0 and Draagonstorm are working on a "Brow Remover" that would address that:

Think of it as an automated heal or stamp tool in Photoshop for Studio. It works on V4, M4, K4, G1, G2F & G2M, G3F & G3M, and on all supported UV maps. We hope to have it wrapped up by PA Sale in Sept (if we get it to work the way we want lol). Still lots to refine and test.

Whether you prefer fibermesh eyebrows or to add your own brows in LIE, the brow remover should make it easy for everyone. No "photoshop" skills required.

Yeh, I've seen the thread; might get it, but as many of my characters (well the base characters) are now browless, it's by no means a certainty.

I've started "collecting" Cayman Studios' Legacy UVs products. I have a lot of Generation 4 characters/skins from getting carried away when I first got started with DS, just in time for the PC anniversary sale! I'm not sure if any of those have no brow options. I can remove brows in Photoshop, (me and Photoshop go all the way back to version 4.0,) but the ability to remove them on the fly will save me a lot of time.

Not to mention how it will make things easier for all those people for whom Photoshop is either a four letter word, or another language altogether.

RCDeschene

This is my gripe with ANY kind of hair of a figure, be that head, brow, face, and especially body! PAs should really consider get into overlaying textures.

Sorel

JD_Mortal said:

I am still curious why eyebrows are on SKIN... That is a 1990's trick. I thought we were past that. Like people who put make-up on skins. Skin should just be skin, period. Eyebrows and lipstick and blush and scars and face-stubble should all be on another rendering layer. Adjustable, removalbe, editable and easy to manipulate without destroying the original image. (Destroying by re-encoding as a JPG again, turning it into a copy of a copy, which degrades image quality.)

Veins too... We (the artists) need to stop using thes old cheap tricks when there are legitimate resolutions that are abundant.

Just my 2-cents added to the issue.

Temporary resolution, edit it post-rendering. Everyone with the internet has access to hundreds of free online photo-editors that can do that.

OMG this.

evilded777

@divamakeup take the plunge. There are other stores than this one, and some of the products are unqiue and of excellent quality. I heartily recommend Oh My Brows, its a tremendous resource with a great deal of thought and effort put into it.  Still waiting on some morphs... I think Kenji hasn't been added to the guys (I own the girls, but... well, you know me, I don't render many girls).

L'Adair

evilded777 said:

@divamakeup take the plunge. There are other stores than this one, and some of the products are unqiue and of excellent quality. I heartily recommend Oh My Brows, its a tremendous resource with a great deal of thought and effort put into it.  Still waiting on some morphs... I think Kenji hasn't been added to the guys (I own the girls, but... well, you know me, I don't render many girls).

+1 on the recommendation of Oh My Brows...