Would you like to see an M5 merchant resource skin?
avmorgan
Posts: 219
There's a little story leading up to this question... over the past two years I've been scratching out as much free time as I can to gear up for the challenge of becoming a PA here at DAZ. Mostly, that has meant solidifying my 3D modeling skills, which have been a learn-at-need sort of thing for years. The thing that got me started was designing characters for use in my 2D digital art, and that quickly expanded into customizing materials to make the most of a slowly growing content library. I have been working with Photoshop for many years before DAZ made it possible for me to start learning 3D--something I'd long wanted to do, but couldn't spend money on. I am planning on trying my hand at everything, but the obvious first choice for me to start with as a PA is character design. I ran into a problem when I needed to start making skins for my male characters; there do not seem to be any really good M5 resource skins--which seems to be the most versatile UV to work with right now.
Surprise, surprise, I ended up making my own M5 skin, developed from Raiya's Sensual Skin Resource for V5. This involved more than a month of cutting, warping, splicing and painting--even in channels to repair jpg artifacts that pop out under the right light or filter combinations. I'm pretty happy with the result, and am now working on the first set of characters for sale. It occured to me that others might like to have this resource, so I shot a note to the submissions committee and started looking for a way to PM Raiya and see if she'd be willing to approve and share credit for it. I am casting a line out to anyone out there who can point her at me, and throwing the question out there on the off chance I get approval and DAZ is interested in the skin. Here are a few pics of the skin on Michael 5, in the promo art style.
So, I'd love to hear people's thoughts on the resource; both if it interests you, and what counts as fair use of a merchant resource, or how to reach Raiya. Oh, here are a few characters using derived skins, and one using the V5 resource.
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Comments
I would check the EULA on creating textures with the merchant resource for different characters other than V5. If the EULA doesn't specify it, then you should be OK but you should verify by opening a helpdesk ticket and ask DAZ. As far as reselling the texture as another merchant resource, the licence expressly forbids that so you wouldn't be able to resell it. As far as selling the characters, as a PA I can tell you that human genesis characters are a hard sell and probably won't be accepted here. I would move them to Genesis 2 at least. With Genesis 3 driving the sales here, you're not going to make any money even compete with the newer character, thus I doubt DAZ will take them. If you would want to keep them at genesis, then I would put them over at Rendo, and make them poser compatible with the companion files.
Also if you move them to genesis 2, you'll have to fix the seams as the conversion between 2 and 3 for the V5/M5 UVs isn't perfect.
There really is not much of a market for M5 anymore.
If you are looking for a critique on the set, I have to say it looks more like a set for a toon character, it is very plastic looking and lacks alot of detail that people would look for in a character set.
You likely need to work also on developing good spec maps, bump and displacment maps and some translucency maps at the bare minimum. The diffuse is only part of the process.
You cannot make a merchant resource from any other merchant resource skins. I do not know of any merchant resource that allows for this.
Also if I'm not mistaken, your morphs are going for the look of the characters in the original Star Wars series. If you're trying to sell those, you're taking a big risk messing with Disney properties, I would not try to sell morphs that look like celebrities,especially based from Disney properties.
First off, thanks to each of you for responding so quickly! Male-M3dia, the documentation for the sensual skin resource is pretty thin, and it was published in 2011, so I'm seeking clarification about using it for G2 and G3 characters. As I've mentioned, I created the skin for personal use and only afterwards considered the notion of selling it--because it cannot simply be given away with a character under the EULA. The three Star Wars characters are also only for personal use. That is clearly stated in the original postings I linked the pictures from. I am only proposing to offer Raiya (and Daz Originals, as the credited artist) the opportunity to adopt it as a companion set to the Sensual Skin Resource for V5. I just don't know how to contact Raiya to do that. I have posed the question to [email protected], and am waiting to see if they respond. On the Publishing page, it does openly invite such questions. As for trying to sell on the G1 mesh, typically, I use Genesis for prototyping, and most often for background characters, depending on the scene and wardrobe intended. My intention, as a character artist, is to make G1 and G2 morphs as "legacy" shapes for designs marketed on the G3 platform.
RawArt, I suppose the iray settings I used do combine with the lighting to give a somewhat plastic look; though, I was hoping people would see it more as a sunscreen oil sheen! The diffuse is as rich in detail as the V5 Sensual Skin, in spite of having been fully repainted. I did my best to preseve as much detail as I could. I have also created originial bump and spec/gloss maps; transparency and displacement maps I usually do specific to a character. It would not take long to make generic maps for transparency and translucency if recommended, though, so thanks. Here is the set I have now (just a dir snapshot):
Zev0, your point is close enough to Male-M3dia's that my response to him replies to you, as well. I am only putting this out there in the hopes that it gets the original artist's attention, and I would only think of selling it as a co-op. I think it's reasonable to ask, and I really do wonder how many people get frustrated by the lack of decent base skins for the M5 UV. The Daz Store may always be pushing forward, but people own a lot of older content, and the M5/V5 skins can be used on G1, G2 and G3 meshes--with a little coaxing.
I guess, this is really just whim and curiosity for me. I'm happy just having the skin for myself, but I'm not a selfish person, so I imagine others might like to have it--which means getting approval to sell it thru Daz as a co-artist at most. Does that clear things up? With all that said, do you think it's a good resource to have out there for the community?
Thanks!
Umm... I am trying to think of a way to put this delicately... but I think Rayai has all the resources to make a M5 resource if she wanted and doesn't seem to be asking for new collaborations so this seems to be an odd direction to go with littl advantage to Raiya at this point.
The Readme of the sensual skin product is pretty clear: do not create other merchant resources with this product, do not use it to create freebies, state usage of the product in your readme, do not use to create any other characters than genesis.
So you are good to make a Genesis character for sale, though I suspect it will be a hard sell. As to making it a merchant resource, I imagine it's highly unlikely you'd get the go-ahead. You've clearly learned a lot on what is a steep learning curve. Best of luck honing those skills :)
nemesis10, Redz, hit hard if you feel it's fair, but... I do know how to read.
As to your point, converting from one UV to another isn't just a simple cut and paste job. Just try the texture transfer tool on a V5 to M5 conversion and see the horror. My reasons for making the skin were entirely for personal use. Having done the work--and taking note that Raiya has not endeavored to make or sell an M5 Sensual Skin Resource, I'm just announcing: "Hey, I've done the work for you. Do you wanna sell it?" So it's a hard sell. Whatever. The work is done. I'm happy to let her make a little profit off of it. So, I'll wait to see if she has anything to say, or even notices.(note: I am curious if the EULA can be extended to G2 and G3, both Genesis figures in the "Daz proprietary" sense, since they did not exist when the EULA was written. Fair question, no?)
Thanks for the 2 cents, though, guys!
I've seen several items sold here at the daz store that clearly are Disney knockoffs.
I'm liking the face morphs!
Working backward, the Eula applies to every product the store sales though a few products have extra limitations. My memory may be faulty but I believe that Raiya may have had a M5 resource at Renderosity that she pulled while retaining the M4 and V4 resource there and others here at DAZ3D; I think it is likely that she has all the resources to make the product if she wishes so it isn't too much of a favor to create a product for her that she did not ask for. I think this is a cautionary tale: http://hyperallergic.com/311615/woman-fills-in-crossword-puzzle-artwork-and-claims-copyright/
Funny... the article, I mean. Obviously, I'm not an expert on the EULA, or whatever blanket terms may apply. That's the point of asking the question. If you're a duly appointed representative, of Daz, nemesis10, then I'll consider that the answer and move on. If not, well, the question remains. I guess it's "questions", plural, really. One for Daz, one for Raiya. And, of course, the general, "do you think you'd like this resource available to the community?" Anyone's answer is a good answer. I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes, I'm just curious.
Having re-read the thread, I see I forgot to respond to Redz: "You've clearly learned a lot on what is a steep learning curve. Best of luck honing those skills :)" Thank you, very much for the compliment! I decided to get into the Daz market a couple of years ago, and have been learning as much as I can getting to the point where I can pose a question like this. I think that means my goal is in sight.
Serene Night, I've also noticed a lot of intellectual property has been tapped, if not outright used, in products or promo images in the Daz store. Whenever a sale or a need prompts me to dig back into the its inventory, it's like a re-cap of popular movies of the day! I've never looked into the specific legality of derivitive works of art, but I can see that it might be a good idea. My Luke, Han and Leia morphs were made for use in the ILM Challenge on ArtStation, and even though I see a lot of Star Wars freebies on the Net, I don't know if I can give them away--but they were never intended for sale, except of course to Disney, on the ridiculous chance they'd want to use them (for example, in a game or animated feature). Does anyone have any experience on derivitive freebies?
FSMCDesigns, I'm glad you like them! I hope my original characters, like Bennet Cross (the old guy with the beard) appeal to people. I'm pretty much done with the modeling (protyping) on him; now I need to replicate the morph on Genesis 2 (and finally sit down and work out do the same for G3). I'll probably get started on a new skin, and focus on a G3 release--after the responses I've had here--rather than spend dev time on a version I may not be able to sell. I've just been putting off trying to figure out the new UDIM UV mapping protocol.
I think the EULA is very clear on the completeness of what it covers but, yes, you should contact DAZ3D but not through the forums since they do not do business through the forums. As to your questions, I think the creators i.e P.A's should retain control over how their products are marketed... There are M5 resources already available and since m5 can use M4 textures, there are m4 textures available already.
On a related aside, I find it a little weird how much people demand skins AND morphs. They are, from all appearances, very different skillsets. I wouldn't necessarily expect someone good at one to deliver the other.
Maybe I'm weird.
Discussing this in the forums is not going to give you the answers you seek. For personal use, you should be fine, but anything for purchase, as another merchant resource, puts it in contradiction to the terms of the EULA; any other possible discussion would have to be addressed with Daz through their ticket system.
AFIK, there isn't a PM system in this forum, and I have no idea how to contact Raiya, or I would have simply told her I made it, and that she was free to sell it. Thus negating the question of if it could be made available to others. As for this thread, it really is on the topic of interest; do people want a clean, bare to the skin, merchant resource for M5? I'm not really a polling type of person, so I don't know if there's an appropriate method for that in the forums, either. I appreciate the comments on the EULA, but that only touches on my question tangenitally.
I could open a new thread on how to approach a vendor with an idea or proposal--I assume the PA's have a system for that, and maybe there's a thread in the forums answering that question. If someone pointed it out, that would be great. I'm still curious about the original question though, and it's answerable on a per-person basis. Cris, is there a thread dedicated to prospective PA's that I could look into? I'm sure that there is tons of stuff for new PA's on their forum, but I have to get that first product in the pipeline to get access to it. So, yeah... lots of questions come to mind, and I did send a couple to [email protected] hoping for some answers. I've no idea whether or not I'm liable to get any, though, since it's likely my question will get lost in the midst of actual product proposals.
I have no problem moving this question to a more appropriate forum, if there is one. I don't see a problem with the question, personally, and I wouldn't confuse the topic of a response with the topic of the thread, or say either--so far--has gone out of bounds. Is it really that easy to spark controversy in the Daz forums?
Link is at the bottom of every page: http://www.daz3d.com/help/help-contact-us
Not all PAs come to the forums, so it's best to go through Daz, in particular since this is a Daz O which means Raiya sold it to Daz.
Oh. Well, thanks... that comes right after I figured out how to PM her! Cris, does sending the question to that help link differ from sending it to [email protected]? I only ask because I'll just be making a pain of myself if they go to the same place and I ask via both routes.
Maybe that's why we often see characters that are a collaberation between two or more PAs. :)
That email address is for finding out how to become a PA at Daz. As PAs, Daz handles customer service for us if a PA does not wish to or doesn't regularly engage with customers through the forums. You can try to PM Raiya, but that is no guarantee that she will respond as she may not see it. As this is a product that she sold to Daz, it would be up to Daz what more is done with it probably. Therefore, double reasoning to use the correct system for contact.
Fair enough. Thanks!
Before this thread fades into obscurity, I thought I'd say I've opened a ticket on donating this resource to Daz Originals. I'll update once more to share the outcome, in case the people following this thread are interested in hearing.
Until then, keep your toes twinkling!
Yes.
Only ever found one and while it's an adequate enough skin it has way too much "character" to be a usefully MR for me.
Not that I'm holding my breath waiting for anything new to appear at this late stage.
I appreciate the sentiment, Pack58. Really, really, I do. I had the same problem with that skin on Renderosity. It is a character skin, as far as I am concerned.
We can only hope Daz will accept the donation and sell it to the community. Personally, I don't understand the "Genesis 3 only" angle; people made an investment in the original product, and I, at least, still buy content for Genesis (and V4/M4) because of that investment. I'm always interested in getting more out of those figures, and the host of characters they support.
Okay, I promised to post an update when I got a response from Daz. I'm sorry to say, it was not affirmative; The Marketing and Published Artist Departments have said, "We currently do not have a need to have this resource. So we would not be interested at this time." In addition, they told me that the request for using the resource for my M5 Genesis Characters has been declined. So, until I have time to paint a completely new M5 skin from scratch, which I can make available through other outlets, I will not be creating any new characters using the M5 UV.
I'll leave you with a last look at the one character I did complete, Bennet for M5, using the M5 UV on Genesis 2 with the Michael 5 Legacy Shape.