We need at least two type base figure for making clothings.

kitakoredazkitakoredaz Posts: 3,526
edited December 1969 in Daz Studio Discussion

I hope DAZ will release two base figure of typical men and woman in futrure. and give chance which I use for
making clothings or making character as base tempalte.

it is not basic female or basic men, or V5 and M5 or another new character (morphs for genesis)

these are not base figure, they are morphed character for genesis. so we need fit to the zero genesis shape first
when we make clothings for them . so I hope truly original new men genesis and women genesis.(not need apply morphs)

I know there are Auto reverse option, but not work well. they sometimes more difficult to reshape detail .

it must be easy to make base shape of clothing and adjust shape from the near character shape ,
than from genesis zero non sexual shape .

if you made clothings which fit to for your character, when you use transfer utility and rigging,
with auto reverse option, it must broke detail parts for genesis zero shape.
the more you have detail, the more they broke. and make it difficult to adjust the parts for genesis zero shape.

so it is easy to make clothings for genesis first, and reshape generated morph. .but about ugly changed detail ,
there is no difference. after that we need to make morph for the character of genesis.

but it is difficult about meny poligon detail parts.
we can not change vertex order, we can not delete the ugly parts only and make new detail parts
for morph obj . it can not work as morph. so we need move vertices of broken parts to adjust original shape.

though it is more easy just delete them and make again the parts. how do you think?


  • FixmypcmikeFixmypcmike Posts: 17,301
    edited December 1969

    I disagree. I can finally use the same items on male or female figures, wouldn't want to lose that.

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    edited December 1969

    Part of the problem is that now you MUST have a higher polygon density in the areas that will experience major changes. For example...the chest area of a garment. It's easier to change and looks a lot better if the change is split among several hundred polys as opposed to a few dozen. There is much more flexibility when the poly density is higher.

    Also, using SubD, smoothing and push modifiers on the clothing helps get it to fit any shape, properly, but with higher initial densities, you need to use them at lower settings or just less often.

  • kitakoredazkitakoredaz Posts: 3,526
    edited December 1969

    Hi fixmepcmike.

    I feel strange, why you lose items if DAZ release new base men and women shape figure?

    you can use genesis and the wear and items before you bought if you do not delete genesis base shape.

    it is option for making clothings for genesis and character.

    I never need to use items for men to the genesis women character,
    and I do not need to use items for women to men character too.

    wear for big tough guy need not to fit small fairly.

    it is more improtant for me to fit to some character they are not have so different shape,
    which I customized from base figure,
    than many shapes from men to women big moster to child.

    or if DAZ has option to set base figure with tcharacter morph when use transfer utiltiy,
    and not need reverse formation process, it has no problem.

    then mjc1016

    >you MUST have a higher polygon density in the areas that will experience major changes

    you really believe, if with many higher poligon, (it is so easy to set and increase sub d in any 3d tools)
    about joint part (eg zip or ring or armor decoration) or accessory or edges of the wear,
    it will not change the shape and fit to new shape or zero genesis too?

    the more you use many poligons for the part, the more it must be difficult to adjust and rearrange
    the changed shape by auto-generated or auto-fit or auto-reverse from genesis to character
    or character to genesis zero no sexual shape.

    and >> using SubD, smoothing and push modifiers on the clothing helps get it to fit any shape

    sub D or smoothing sets can apply easily.
    but it just calm down the surface and lost edge of shape.
    just divide the surfaces. not keep actually the shape.

    I think genesis will never has good decorated shape armor for women or men
    than V4. genesis cloghings can not have real detail.

    because clothings for genesis is expected to change and fit to anyshape.
    but it is actually imposibble. the clothings which can fit to any shape means
    it is not so much real detail and decoration.

    though it is my opinion.

    many user may perfectly contnt with genesis clothings.

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    edited December 1969

    Look at your bikini top...

    One of the major areas that distorts, under the arm. There's a lower poly density there than on the cups.

    The ring...it needs to be rigid. Just like armor, buttons and other details like that. I'm not sure of the status of rigidity groups but they are part of DS now.

    Smoothing/push/SubD...there are options. When applied, look in the Parameters tab for them. There's one to keep sharp edges. There's a distance to 'push'...all sorts of options.

    Another area...weight mapping. Adjusting the weights is definitely a 'finesse' type skill.

  • kitakoredazkitakoredaz Posts: 3,526
    edited October 2012

    EDITED so sorry and forgive me. you said about ring too.
    I know about ridgity group. and think about the way too.
    I think I can apply shape for genesis when I rig.
    but if I make the shape for the character first , it seems not used.
    I do not know the way to apply ridgity group with auto reverse defomation.

    (actually about only this wear ring, it is not problem for me too^^;
    I can rearrange corrupted shape if I need)

    but, about every detail or trim or backface around edge, or decoration may break
    when auto fit and transferred I think, so genesis product has not so many variety
    and real detail as same as which have made for V4 or A4.

    because they do not need to fit to so many shape , I think,,.

    I do not edited before I have written, so just forgive me about you said and undersatnd
    problem of ring.

    HI, I think you just check and see what I trying to joint and weight map.
    (because you do not think much about what I say.do no you? you think I just complain about easy things.
    but it is not.)

    about under area of the arm is not problem of low poligons.

    it is just jcm problem when I bend collar. it fit to genesis, so it change the shape.

    you can see same thing with the other product bikini fit to genesis in daz shop.

    every shape aruond under the arm must waving because genesis mesh change when bend collar.

    it just follow genesis shape. and original genesis has no JCM about bend collar.
    if he not wear anything the line can not see. but you wear on bikini or cut shut
    you can easily understand the waving .

    and I say about ring. ( why you do not see it?)
    do you think it is problem about sub D or low poligon?

    I will take up pictures. before transfer utility and after use transfer
    with two case.

    case 1 is make obj for genesis shape
    case 2 is make obj for my character morph.

    both of them have same problem. ring perfectly change the shape.
    you must need rearrange the ring again , and you can not use.
    it is so simple and easy case, but think about more decorated trim or joint, or
    detail of product? many men think auto-fit can easily used for wear V4clothing to genesis,
    but if the clothing has many detail it just corrupted them ,

    Post edited by kitakoredaz on
  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,223
    edited December 1969

    What mike said is true for a great many people re: using the same clothing for male and female. If DAZ ever did go back to different male and female body shapes there would be a lot of people voicing their frustration in the forums here quite loudly I'm sure.

  • GiGi_7GiGi_7 Posts: 1,131
    edited December 1969

    female/male separated is not guarantee for better fit. We should need then toon/no toon separation. Chibi girl, Nata, Hitomi and Toon Amy, for example, "push the limits" in breasts, another curves and feet. I think that this is not a female/male subject, but it is a "improvements in tools for fit" subject.

    And I usually interchange clothes between boys and girls. Some things are very specific for male or female, but others are unisex, and some times I want use very female piece with a male character, like this guy inspired in "kore wa zombie desu ka", render for a contest.

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  • BejaymacBejaymac Posts: 1,216
    edited December 1969

    You wont get two base figures, as far as DAZ is concerned Genesis is the "perfect" marketing solution, no more expense in creating male/child figures only for them to have a small fraction of the support and content the female figure gets.

    With Poser figures we at least had Lyrra's and/or Netherwork's magnet sets, but I don't think either of them uses DS, so they wont be making any for Genesis, which leaves us with auto follow, which works similar to D3D's Morphing Clothes, so long as your item is meant to be skin tight it'll work, but for the vast majority of your content it totally ****ing useless. Which pretty much leaves a content maker with no real choice with Genesis, build your items to fit the base shape, and then spend a long time building fit morphs for each of the DAZ morphs. Which btw is what DAZ have been doing with the free content that comes with DS4, with 4.0 the clothing all relied on auto follow to fit the morphs, with 4.5 DAZ have been including some of the basic morphs in the clothing, so even they don't think much of their auto follow system.

    The basic child morph is the only thing about Genesis that makes me think we need a separate figure, with all of the slut ware, autofit and the genitals it makes it far to easy for the sicko's to do their "art" with Genesis.

  • MurgatroydMurgatroyd Posts: 1,122
    edited December 1969

    Bejaymac said:
    The basic child morph is the only thing about Genesis that makes me think we need a separate figure, with all of the slut ware, autofit and the genitals it makes it far to easy for the sicko's to do their "art" with Genesis.

    I don't think much of that argument. One of the fundamental principles of life is that any tool which is useful can be misused. Go after the miscreants with the full force of the law, but don't cripple the tools for the rest of us.

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    edited October 2012

    Ok...time for a little show and tell...

    The first shirt is rather low poly, with a fairly even poly distribution, with SubD added and smoothing, push and collisions used liberally.

    The second is much higher 'native' poly count (3500) with the density concentrated in the mid chest/back areas. No SubD, but smoothing, push and collision used liberally.

    The morphs used on the first were just basic female and DieTrying's simple breast bigger. The second I went all out an put the gorilla and RAMWolff's Breast-jugs to the max...with that morph, the first shirt, even maxed out on collisions and smoothing broke....the second shirt, well, take a look.

    There are no 'extra'/special/etc morphs done to the shirt itself. When modelling it in Blender, I did not subdivide it nor apply a 'smoothing' modifier other than 'smooth shaded'. I did, before exporting the obj, for both shirts run a cloth sim on them, using the same cloth settings. The model was the base Genesis No subdivision was used. The first shirt was turned into the second by cutting and dividing by hand using "Loop cut and slide".

    Edit:Ooops...I knew I shouldn't have been doing this while tired...I forgot to UV map it, so I'll have to rerig the shirt

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    Post edited by mjc1016 on
  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    edited December 1969

    Here's another shot...

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  • MattymanxMattymanx Posts: 5,832
    edited December 1969

    Back when the Generation 3 figures were the latest and greatest, the number one issue facing content makers was which figure to support for clothing cause clothing made for one character did not automatically fit another.

    For customers, the number one issue was which character to buy. Back then the morph pack for V3 could not be used with M3 or A3 so you would have to spend a lot more money depending on how many characters you wanted to use.

    Genesis may not be perfect, but it is a much better solution then having multiple base figures. Using Genesis offers new and different challenges then using Gen4 or Gen3 figures so its a matter of adapting to how the new toys work.

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