No doors, openings or small halls behind door openings
rampart_1576840087
Posts: 504
ShadowRun promo - I looked at the below content there are no doors that open in the scene
Doors and openings are necesary to get the most from video scenes.
It would be nice if content creators realize we (video developers) use doors, door openings and tiny hallways behind doors to facilitate use of the scenes.
We also appreciate moveable walls and removal of other obstacles to provide flexible camera views in scenes.
There is alot of flexibility in this scene, props and such, which is nice.
Yes, I can edit the scene and probably get what I need.
Why would I buy content and have to do that?
I won't buy it, not enough hours in the day to rework and bash.
Regardless, it is a terrific looking scene and prop arrangement.
http://www.daz3d.com/sci-fi-black-market-alley-construction-set
Here is an example what we need -
http://www.daz3d.com/urban-future
In the details - Behind every door is a small corridor.
This may not seem like a big deal.
Bashing a content pack when a simple thing like door opeings, doors and little corridors behind doors should not take that much longer for an artist to include in content.
It would be nice, if content developers for the Daz3d shop would think about doing these things.
Thanks
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Comments
I look to see if buildings are also included as individual props to load, in zero position.
i've passed up sets that are all the props in one file.
Yes, that is good thinking. I have made the mistake of buying those types of sets (all props in one content item), and they are mostly worthless to me.
All I do is video production and it is very important scenes and sets are flexible. I do have a bunch sets and stuff that are limited use, but I learned with experience not to buy them any longer.
I only post this thread hoping some of the content developers will think more about their users when the put content up for sale. I don't think it's a big deal for them to finish out their content items by paying attention to the needs of video producers as well.
We may not have exteriors and interiors in packs, but if we accessible doors, little corridors and such we can integrate interiors that are a close fit. Moveable walls, ceilings and floors should not be ignored either. There are some content that have one-sided walls and such we can shoot video through outside walls, this works good too.
It would be good practice, if content developers want loyal customers to think on the things mentioned in this thread. Video production is really growing and the need for adequate and flexible content scenes and sets is important. I would have bought the set mentioned in the starter post of this thread, if the content matched the criteria mentioned in this thread.
Sadly Most content creators (including Daz itself ) have not considered the possibility that you will actually use their content for anything other than single& still renders.
Seriously just look at G3's complete lack of compatibility with any of Daz studios built in Character animation,(video making) ,tools.
is pretty easy to hide doors if all one texture and throw a prop one in and if the door is one texture a plane or cube with a plane each side works nicely if not wishing to UV mape the cube for the texture.
In something like carrara the latter is very easy you can do it in the texture room even by adding a rectangle layer.
Sad
I realize we can do alot of things with content items, but they all take time. I can give some horrible examples of problems from bashing. I do video production and I mostly export content to IClone, because the animation is some much better than Carrara or Daz3d. The timeline in Iclone is terrific tool, and constantly improved by RL.
Don't take it I am not an important user of Daz3d. Remember video production is 30 to 60 FPS. That means frames and lots of them in a 15 or 3 minute video. That means content and alot more of it than static image production requires. Video retention rates require constant changing of the view scenes.
I'm not making animations (yet?), apart from the ones for use in Poser's clothroom, but opening doors (and having some sort of basic interior) is also usable for 'still renders' (at least for me). However, making that also means the modeler has to spend more time and effort in the product. Doing that would mean either a more expensive model, which might sell less, or producing less models, which also means less revenue. Not a good thing of modeling is your source of income... so basically it all comes to market demand.
well in iClone you can also use the culled backfaces for looking into rooms
Poser and Carrara have it as an option too, another thing I find lacking in DS
and before you export the obj or FBX for 3DXchange just hide the door with the geometry editor in DS then do reverse to get a matching door prop
glaseye, It isn't that much more difficult to do what is mentioned as the content is developed. Bashing can take alot of time, and may required several applications before you get it done.
Wolf359 made a good comment above, which pretty well covers it for Daz3d users. I
Glaseye makes a good point, Each PA can decide for themselves how they want to model their sets. That's one of the benefits of self employment. The scifi Alley set lloks great and is exactly what Antfarm envisioned.
once in a while it's worth the effort to split a model into 2 or 3 pieces, door left,door right, then building. but the geometry has to line up with the door. the luxury isn't always there. i spent a little time on Tortuga Port of Pirates.
i've returned a couple sets cause couldn't get a camera in edgewise >.<
the single sided geometry was so close, couldn't see the wall in the way until rendered.
then there's the sets, hide a wall and it leaves gaping holes in floor and/or ceiling.
one of nice things carrara has is the move prop to origin (center).
and center hotpoint.
to made a door or window shutter pivot by it's edge, nudge the hotpoint to edge of door
I render all of my finals in Maxon Cinema4D
Thankfully ,through advanced .obj import plugins ,I am able
to split an imported model by UV material zones upon import
this gives us Doors and windows that can then be animated
opening and closing.
This is critical for my sci fi genre animations
where people & cameras are constantly exiting & entering doors & passageways
This video linked below is example of where I "split off"& animated a ships bridge door and space station cooridor & elevator doors that were not movable in the original product.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2TYEp536iB8MHFBcUVMOUl3OHM
The Galactus Floor vault doors were properly built for animation by a top quality vendor ( sanctumart)who no longer sells here.
I'm not a modeler, so I can't say how much time is needed or how difficult it is to add those extras. But I have done some testing for a vendor, and as such I can say that the more complex the model, the more likely it is something somewhere goes wrong... and not always the obvious things. So maybe it is quick to make, but not always quick to test (after all, it has to function not only on the modelers' system ....
)
I had noticed I have the same issues with Stonemasons models like urban sprawl3, streets of London and China town. . I found using them in film I have to rework all the door or windows Because none of them are rigged or work.
So you make a very good point when it comes to content to be used for animation . But again it falls back on there are those people who have experience in animation with daz and those who don't. I believe a lot of content creators or PA's don't make animations, I'm just guessing but I would think a Pa their main focus when trying make a living is to pump out content, not to demo content in animation. . So it properly would not be a priority for Pa's when making their sets to make sure the doors work. , those little details like working doors or windows movable props and compatibility wih other software like Iclone or Carera & poser in these sets as animators would be desired. Where as some or majority of customers are just looking for ready to render Daz only content for their free copy of daz studio. which they use to create still art. , which is most likely the larger market.
sadly that is not much help to us animators. Learning to rig or recreate doors should not be hard for an experienced animator. But learning to be a software engineer to make the Daz content only work with other software not so helpful.
Concerning the set by Antfarm, it is a sci-fi set so it does not have to be what we consider a normal shop.
As Glasseye states, it is a time versus return issue. One can spend several months making something great and only get a months return on it and they could also spend a week doing something smaller and get a great return on it. But even then, no one really knows how each set will do. And then price is an issue too. Price something really good too low and it devalues the product and makes it all the more difficult to get a good return on it as you need to sell a lot more to meet your goals. But price it too high and no one will buy it no matter how good it is.
While doing interiors for exterior sets sounds great, there is a whole other level of complications that it throws into the mix. One is more polygons and the other is more textures. The textures affect VRAM in iray a lot more then polygons do. Loading up a lot of extra polys and textures you're not going to see is a waste of resources. And the more complex the model it becomes hader to price.
It would be best for someone to create and sell single structures that are complete inside and out that are of the same theme and era so they can be mixed and mached as the end user desires with matching roads and such and also include lower poly versions with no moving parts and limited low poly interiors.
I have a number of FirstBastion and Antfarm content. I like the quality of each. The purpose of this thread was not to rag on anyone.
My work is video production... my concerns, I expressed.
If artists don't want to make allowances for a few alterations for video producers as they develope content that is their prerogative.
I have no bad opinions of those artists.
This product reminds me of a scene in Bladerunner. The area where he finds the snake dealer.
I am going too look at this from a different angle.
Do you need speed when rendering video, or do you need things you are unlikely to see in the scene, which slows rendering?
Do what Hollywood has been doing since movies were invented. Use camera angles, close shots, and intervening objects to create your movie magic.
For example: Your character is running down a hallway. The person he is chasing is glimpsed turning a corner. Cut to the person being chased opening a door. Cut back to your character turning the corner, cut to a shot where your character busts open the door, cut to the person being chased turning a corner followed by the person doing the chasing.
The opening door, the hallway, and the exterior don't even need to be the same product, or connected, or even all in the scene at once.
Anything to reduce the complexity of the scene so it renders faster.
Watch Bullet, argubably one of the best car chases ever filmed, is in that movie. Watch the car chase straight through, then watch it a second time, slow it down, pause it, rewind it, and pay attention to the details. Notice how often the same car is used in the scene, or how often the same intersection is used. Until they get to the highway, I don't think they used much more than a 4 block area.
Yeah, movie making is an art in itself. I would think there would be more animation tutorials for us common folk. I would like more tips and tricks on how to create a great scene with the animator of your choosing. I have Lightwave2015 and Carrara Pro, and iclone6Pro, and of course Vue. There are great tools out there that are within reach of the common user the problem is too many tools and not enough time and knowlege of how to use them and when. Animating a scene is alot of work and creating a great looking still is a hundred times easier than animating a scene of a few minutes. ~just my 2 cents
As video producer I never render in Daz3d. I don't care what kind of render quality is available in Daz3d.
I use very memory efficient render engine in Sony Vegas Pro after I have completed my project, with sound.
I am concerned with Polycount, especially with Daz3d content. I decimate practically everything and export afterward.
When I decimate I do allow for where the content will be shown within the video.
I bought the DzFire Cyborg 4. awhile back, and the poly count is very high.
I tried to decimate, but I can only use the items as background or deep middle ground characters. (in videos)
It appears I will have to bash the heck out of the cyborg to lower the poly count and maintain enough quality for closer views.
Too many ltittle greebles as he calls them. LOL
I have alot of Dzfire content items, because I like the quality. So I do reluctantly tolerate some bashing and decimation.
Yes, one frame images can be fabulous with render engines... I don't do any one frame renders.
I don't use the render engine in Iclone 6, I bought the application and have never used it.
I use NLE render tools for videos.
This may be confusing for some Daz3d artists, since quality renders are highlighted constantly.
What software you are using to render is not relelvant, except when it comes to what you are comfortable with and does it produce the output you need for your vision.
My comment works equally well if you are using Iray, Iray Interactive, 3Delight, Carrara, Firefly, Superfly, Lightwave, Mental Ray, Lux Render, Iclone, etc. (Or even some combination of them.)
Decimation, especially for well done models, requires more work than converting a door to open.
AntFarm, like Stonemason, rarely uses a poly that isn't needed. Automated decimation is as likely to leave you with a mess as it is to work. On some models, it is even more likely to leave you with a mess than something useful.
Further if you are not rendering stills as part of your process, you are missing out on several good tricks for animation. For example HDRI creation, rendering backdrops. Flats to replace mid to high poly objects, etc.
Something al;so very helpful to animators. Learning the exquisite art of kit bashing is a skill much needed for animation. stealing one rigged prop to make something look like it works in a unrigged set is easier sometimes when using daz content. that is why I usually pass over the sets that only comes as a single pre load with out individual props. i like FirstBastion & Howie Farkes, 3D Universe for that reason, there usually so many useful props separated from the preloaded scenes. having the pre load scene is great don't get me wrong,... but when you need only one thing or prop out of the set so you can kit bash it with something else.. and it only comes as a preload scene with out the separated props . that makes it much harder for animation use. because then you have to do it manually .. I don't know how many times I have to load a set to make separate props out of preloaded scenes only sets. I understand why pa's make their sets the way they do. for time and money so I'm not critizing,. . and I have learned to work around some of quirks issues.But there are some things that I do take into consideration when buying a model is the sets a single pre load with out individual props separated or not.
like I said I am not criticizing But If I can make a suggestion it would be help full to break the pre loads scene up and offer the props separated for kit bashing & if its a environment set can you please make it work for poser too.
I find that for many situations, just taking a few days to model a few 'generic' doors and hallways work wonders for this. Select the door in the scene (or it's polygons, if it is not a separate material, and create a new material for it) and make it 100% transparent. Then put one of the 'generic' doors where it is, scale to fit, and copy textures as needed (you may have to open the existing texture for the door, and 'extract' a portion of it to a new image to use on your 'generic' door. Put a 'generic' hallway or room behind it.
Voila. A few generic doors and hallways go a LONG way.
Hmm, sounds like a great idea for a PA to make. Something with a very cleanly laid out set of UVs, with various styles and pivot points.
But not being able to get cameras into the scene is really more a question of scene setup and using what the rendering app provides. In DS, with Iray we have clip planes we can use, and I believe 3Delight has it's own way to make a surface transparent from the back. But it's always nice when the PA takes a little extra time when designing (rather than trying to re-work an environment afterwords, which adds considerable time) to make scenes that are more flexible.
This business is evolving at a break neck speed. New needs arrive all the time from the users as venues expand and hardware becomes cheeper to own. That said I never omit something that would be useful to spite the users. A great deal of time and creative energy go into making props and environments that are not your standard fare. If the focus of a set is a wall with a door than yes it opens and has a hall, as many of my sets do. Creating a vision of a future landscape or city street puts the focus on a great many other issues. Now make it modular so it can be taken apart and easily used in other sets, not becuase you have to but it's what folks want. Even the props have to be something new not just a copy of something that already exists. And yes I am only one person doing all this. I think this is a really fun set at a great price, and the omission of opening doors was not out of spite for film, as mentioned above I get my brain food from film as well as other places.
You get an idea how to make something even better, send me a PM. It may take more time to make and it may cost more to buy but that's the business.
Yes I understand what you are saying about HDRI and backdrop renders. I use alot of 2d backgrounds, and small scene settings as possible. Yes, I do render 2d if I need a quality view. I would take the Antfarm scene mentioned in the Started pose and render several 2d backgrounds. I would use the Iclone Render for those 2d scenes. I would not render 3d animations and work with the render engine types you mention. I would use the Sony Vegas Pro render engine built into the SVP for my final project render.
Every project has it's own peculiarities, or anomalies. When I start with a scene it might appear there is one highlight point for special features. However, when you start lighting the scene it is not uncommon to find it doesn't work out best. Then you end up with a different way of doing the scene, which is not discernible to start.
I suggest not to try to figure out what a user will do with the content. Game builders usually have principal viewpoint from character eyes or have following eyes. This means many considerations for video production are not there. You can have a shooter game character interactive within the content, but you won't be making shots from alot of different distances and viewpoints.
Working with video I use alot of interactivity between characters, props and other content. Creating good viewpoints and facilitation for lighting placement is important.
The more people that can use the content I suspect the longer it will have economic value.
I own this pack, but I rarely use it. I haven't done a medieval project in 3 years.
http://arteria3d.myshopify.com/collections/3d-asset-packs/products/medieval-door-pack-1
Well from years of doing this, I do know you can't please all the folks all the time. Unless your a part of the team working hand in hand there will always be " If only it...." And even than someone up the food chain has a bright idea at the eleventh hour.
Exactly. Only something even more generic. Rectangular doors, arched doors, circular doors.......single doors, double doors, sliding doors......left-hung, right-hung, corner-sprung.....thickness morphs, etc. With a well thought out set of UVs, they could be used just about anywhere. Hallways/rooms could be done similarly.
I think you might share on the forums your upcoming content items, and you would get a lot of feedback. Then you can sort the can do from the can't do, or don't wanna do. LOL
Hi Ant Man .I think sometimes its hard for people to relies the different needs for different users I would not even try to imagine as a Pa trying to accomadate all those different needs people are screaming for,. because that has to be impossiable task. So I understand you as a PA you have to weight time vs sales to see if your efforts for output pay off , Do you have a target market you prefer over another?.
Myself as a animator and one that sells my art I render. , I have the same issues. I been doing illustrations for years, But recently I have been approached for commissioned animations, In fact I am doing one now for a country music singer for a new Christmas song in Tennessee, using 3d universe content. I can tell you when I give a client the estimated cost of creating an animation they usually faint or have this look of horror . That is why to me it is very important to find content that helps keep my creation & production cost down. Just like a PA trying to make their time worth their effort in sales for the model they make., I too have to take things in consideration of the cost of doing a film vs the content I am going buy and have to work with in creating it .
So as an example a PA creating content to sell may only sell a 100 of a new released product. but at least they sold a 100 of them. As for me I will only be making & selling the 1 film, so working with content that takes me 3 to 5 times longer to work with in a animated scene because i need to re rig or recreate a prop or how the environment works usually means I will not be using that content in a commsioned film. because of my time vs out put. so that is the reason I look for content with separated props . its production time vs productivity to me. I usually pay more for stuff when I know I will get a lot of use out of it , I know its kind of like comparing apples to oranges. because there will be more still art people than people like me creating animations with the pa's products
So again I understand where your coming from. and I know daz is trying very hard to bring new people into 3d art to keep cost down. But least not forget some of us sell the art we create so we have cost vs output issues to consider too. please understand I am not criticizing the Pa's I know they are only trying to make a living. . I was just offering a different point of view from someone also trying to make a living.
well as a long time iClone and Carrara user, I learnt early to modify and adapt models to my needs.
I never used DAZ studio unless forced to and only really to any extent since DS4, I started with iC3, Carrara5 and Poser7 in 2009
my 3dx2 only imported obj so broke stuff up by hiding parts in DS and Carrara and "rigged" in iClone using pivot and attach.
tweaking stuff in Carrara's vertex room was a skill I had to acquire.