You've been heard. Response re: 4.9 and Encryption

DAZ_SteveDAZ_Steve Posts: 565
edited February 2016 in The Commons

I want to thank everyone, on behalf of all of us at Daz, for your input, ideas and perspectives, as well as for the huge adoption we have already seen with Daz Studio 4.9. I want to also thank those that have not adopted yet for offering their feedback.

Based on the feedback we’ve received through the forums, customer emails, support tickets, etc., there are 3 main areas that we would like to address:

  1. Encryption and DRM.

  2. Difficulty or confusion in finding and installing products through Daz Connect.

  3. Frustration over missing functionality in the Content Library pane experience.

As I outline our position on each of the above, let me state that we fully realize that our solutions will not solve everyone's concerns in these areas, but we think that these are key next-steps to solve the majority of them.  These are high level updates for you.  More in-depth details for each one of these solutions will be provided in the coming weeks, with our intention being to roll all of these out during Q1 2016:

 

1. Encryption and DRM.

Currently Daz Connect gives customers the ability to install (among other things) encrypted content.  Daz Connect also lets customers retrieve a Key to decrypt their content.  Customers have raised the concerns of: What if Daz is not available to provide the keys anymore, chooses not to, or starts charging an additional fee to get a key for previously purchased content?

Solution: We have developed and fully tested a utility which will decrypt, and save in non-encrypted formats, Daz products on a customer’s computer.  We are also working out details with a software escrow company who will provide this utility to the public free of charge in the event that Daz is no longer in a business position to, or is unwilling to continue offering this as a free service.  This will also be added to the Daz EULA to ensure customers of our commitment to enable them to always be able to use content that they have purchased a license for.

Obviously this does not address some of the other issues such as scripts and tools that work on un-encrypted content.  But those are solved in other ways.  We are working (and will continue to work) with developers who have this need, in order to show them how to do it with encrypted content.

 

2. Difficulty or confusion in finding and installing products through Daz Connect.

People can't find their products to install, or fail to install them.

Solution: In addition to the existing functionality in the Smart Content pane, we will be providing a new Pane titled "Install" (or something similar) which is used specifically to install/uninstall content.  It will be a much easier experience, and we have worked out many of the hiccups in the install process.  We also have MANY solutions that will be incorporated  to make installing, managing, finding and using older content that lacks metadata a lot easier.

 

3. Frustration over missing functionality in the Content Library pane experience.

Solution: Obviously the description of this solution could get very detailed.  At a high level, we have a solution that we will be rolling into testing in the coming weeks which allows customers to navigate the hierarchy they are used to in Content Library as they have in the past.   Again, I know there will be a TON of questions on this subject.  More detailed descriptions will be provided as the implementation details become more concrete.

 

Thank you everyone for your input, advice, and candid opinions.

Steve Spencer

VP of Marketing

Daz 3D

Post edited by Richard Haseltine on
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Comments

  • TesseractSpaceTesseractSpace Posts: 1,007
    edited January 2016

    This is all good to hear.

    1. I'm not thrilled with the degradation of trust implied by the adoption of DRM but at least it looks like some sensible steps are being taken to protect the interests of customers as well as the company.

    2. Please for the love of God put in the ability to perform a restore (preferably with an automated option available) of already installed content in the event of a database reset. Especially without needing to reconnect or at least only needing to redownload the current metadata for the account, though if that can be made restorable offline as well it'd be wonderful.

    3. Isn't that different to me, but maybe there's functionality I wasn't using and thus don't miss.

    At one point you mentioned the possibility of an encrypted free item being available at some point. Is this still likely to happen? (And I mean truly free, not a spend $49 to get it type) I know I'd be more comfortable with the encrypted items thing if I could try one out and see if/how it limits me in practice. (Well unless it's a total nightmare, but I haven't seen any posts from anyone having that situation with the other stuff.)

    Post edited by TesseractSpace on
  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 10,651

    The DRM stays, which is bad news; the escrow company is good certainly, but conditions of release would be interesting.

    Personally, it doesn't make a lot of difference to me over purchasing DRMed content. Not going to happen as things stand.

  • IppotamusIppotamus Posts: 1,483

    1.  That's it?  That is all you got from the pages and pages of feedback, discussion, statistics and raw feelings?  A doomsday failsafe?

  • lxlx Posts: 2,994

    Even with a poison pill, encrypted content is still forced to be installed via Connect, and Connect is separate from all existing content and also kinda restrictive and weird. Why couldn't you just expand upon the Categories system within Content Library instead of having to add all these new systems to try and dissuade people from moving files around? Now there's ANOTHER new pane coming? DIM worked fine, all you needed to do was remove the move file commands within Studio and replace them with the Category reference system as default.

    "Currently Daz Connect gives customers the ability to install (among other things) encrypted content."

    The ability (lol) yes, but nothing about what sorts of choices there will be moving forward (if any) nor about the future of new non-encrypted content as a whole.

  • "You've been heard."

    Correction: You've been 100% completely ignored.

     

  • Gr00vusGr00vus Posts: 317

    I won't be buying any DRM encumbered products from DAZ/DAZ PAs. There isn't anything that can be done to change that.

  • So Does #3 apply to us manual file sorters? Through Windows file manager? You know... us dinosaur 1995-ers. devil

  • The shift from vague reassurances to concrete steps and a legally binding committment is a good start.

    Still not buying any of that shit, though.

  • thd777thd777 Posts: 807

    Thank you for the update! I appreciate it. DRM is a non-issue to me, especially in the way which DAZ has implemented it. I am looking forward to the updates to connect and the library.

    Ciao

    TD

  • nicstt said:

    The DRM stays, which is bad news; the escrow company is good certainly, but conditions of release would be interesting.

    Personally, it doesn't make a lot of difference to me over purchasing DRMed content. Not going to happen as things stand.

    Realisticly once they invested in DRM it was probably too late to change course. I'm no fan of DRM, but the failsafe is good to know about. Especially since the wording does include the phrase 'in the event Daz is no longer in a business position to, or is unwilling to continue offering this as a free service.' Which I take to mean we'd get some measure of protection against radical policy changes as well as if the company goes under. I still wish some other way had been found, especially since the makers of possible script/tools may not wish to work directly with DAZ for one reason or another. (A few degrees off the topic, but I wonder how many content makers left the market due to personality clashes and disputes with the stores they sold through versus the number that left because of the percieved losses from piracy? We may never know but it'd provide some interesting perspective on our little world...)
  • Frank__Frank__ Posts: 302

    Crackers will crack DRM, not because of getting some 3d-models for nothing, but because of the challenge of cracking DRM. The usual thieves will use their code to crack DAZ-products and post them on the usual sites.

    I thought the DAZ DRM would last about 3 month, but I've read somewhere - maybe at DAZ - that the encrypted stuff is already available un-encrypted. (How much time you spent on establishing the already-cracked-DRM-funnies, while someone could work on animation-stuff on Studio, Genesis 3 in Carrara - I digress.

     

    The whole better handling of content, content updates, smart content etc. for beginners could have been implemented without the DRM-stuff. So your points 2 and 3 are obsolete.

     

  • 3dOutlaw3dOutlaw Posts: 2,211

    Well at least it's good to know we've been heard, indecision

    So then....how about a sale on those good old Hiro3/AIko3 items, from back in the non-encryption days!  yes

    Been a long time, and us old timers need a little nostalgia to feel better.  cheeky

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 14,250

    I don't think there's any real chance DRM will go away until a few months of sales data come in. At that point we'll all see if the customers actually care.

     

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 33,784

    ...what about those of use who still use the DIM or choose to manually install?

    What about people with separate runtime/library drives?

    What about the FAQ statement that says...

    New products may begin to be offered through Daz Connect only. This will be determined on a product by product basis.

    ...?

  • Kudos for planning on addressing the Connect usability issues.

    The DRM doubledown is dreadfully disappointing.

  • Frank__ said:

    Crackers will crack DRM, not because of getting some 3d-models for nothing, but because of the challenge of cracking DRM. The usual thieves will use their code to crack DAZ-products and post them on the usual sites.

    I thought the DAZ DRM would last about 3 month, but I've read somewhere - maybe at DAZ - that the encrypted stuff is already available un-encrypted. (How much time you spent on establishing the already-cracked-DRM-funnies, while someone could work on animation-stuff on Studio, Genesis 3 in Carrara - I digress.

     

    The whole better handling of content, content updates, smart content etc. for beginners could have been implemented without the DRM-stuff. So your points 2 and 3 are obsolete.

     

    The things that were found were products that were meant to be encrypted only and were, for a short time, on DIM.

  • Frank__ said:

    Crackers will crack DRM, not because of getting some 3d-models for nothing, but because of the challenge of cracking DRM. The usual thieves will use their code to crack DAZ-products and post them on the usual sites.

    I thought the DAZ DRM would last about 3 month, but I've read somewhere - maybe at DAZ - that the encrypted stuff is already available un-encrypted. (How much time you spent on establishing the already-cracked-DRM-funnies, while someone could work on animation-stuff on Studio, Genesis 3 in Carrara - I digress.

     

    The whole better handling of content, content updates, smart content etc. for beginners could have been implemented without the DRM-stuff. So your points 2 and 3 are obsolete.

     

    The things that were found were products that were meant to be encrypted only and were, for a short time, on DIM.

    So even if it isn't today, let us suppose that the encryption is reverse engineered and broken in 3 months.  This will put DAZ in quite the perdicament as they cannot change the encryption algorithm without breaking all the pre-existing installed encrypted content on legitimate user's machines.  A DAZ employee even stated this much in the thread where it was found out that switching between 32bit and 64bit DAZ Studio breaks the encrypted content due to a bug which cannot now be addressed.

  • Frank__ said:

    Crackers will crack DRM, not because of getting some 3d-models for nothing, but because of the challenge of cracking DRM. The usual thieves will use their code to crack DAZ-products and post them on the usual sites.

    I thought the DAZ DRM would last about 3 month, but I've read somewhere - maybe at DAZ - that the encrypted stuff is already available un-encrypted. (How much time you spent on establishing the already-cracked-DRM-funnies, while someone could work on animation-stuff on Studio, Genesis 3 in Carrara - I digress.

     

    The whole better handling of content, content updates, smart content etc. for beginners could have been implemented without the DRM-stuff. So your points 2 and 3 are obsolete.

     

    The things that were found were products that were meant to be encrypted only and were, for a short time, on DIM.

    The point still stands, unless DAZ got ahold of some miracle system no company had ever managed to make before, their only defense against an eventual crack is that perhaps our market is so niche that the really skilled crackers won't notice.
  •  

     

    Frank__ said:

    Crackers will crack DRM, not because of getting some 3d-models for nothing, but because of the challenge of cracking DRM. The usual thieves will use their code to crack DAZ-products and post them on the usual sites.

    I thought the DAZ DRM would last about 3 month, but I've read somewhere - maybe at DAZ - that the encrypted stuff is already available un-encrypted. (How much time you spent on establishing the already-cracked-DRM-funnies, while someone could work on animation-stuff on Studio, Genesis 3 in Carrara - I digress.

     

    The whole better handling of content, content updates, smart content etc. for beginners could have been implemented without the DRM-stuff. So your points 2 and 3 are obsolete.

     

    The things that were found were products that were meant to be encrypted only and were, for a short time, on DIM.

     

    Just think, if the DAZ encryption/DRM really, really works, they'll be able to give up the laborious 3D content business and sell their super-007-Q secrets to government security agencies and high profile persons with private email servers.

  • HavosHavos Posts: 4,378

    As much as I appreciate DAZ trying to find a solution here, for me personally this does not change anything. I was not much bothered about the Poison Pill anyway, since I expect DAZ to remain a going concern for many years in to the future, and I was unlikely to buy much, if any, encrypted content in any case. I just do not want it encrypted at all, simple as that. I see no advantage of it to us, or the rights holders, although I respect that others hold a very different viewpoint. As mentioned above, this will ultimately be decided by the market, and if going forward the majority of customers will be happy with DRM content, that is something I will have to live with, and consider my options.

  • HavosHavos Posts: 4,378
    edited January 2016
    Frank__ said:

    Crackers will crack DRM, not because of getting some 3d-models for nothing, but because of the challenge of cracking DRM. The usual thieves will use their code to crack DAZ-products and post them on the usual sites.

    I thought the DAZ DRM would last about 3 month, but I've read somewhere - maybe at DAZ - that the encrypted stuff is already available un-encrypted. (How much time you spent on establishing the already-cracked-DRM-funnies, while someone could work on animation-stuff on Studio, Genesis 3 in Carrara - I digress.

     

    The whole better handling of content, content updates, smart content etc. for beginners could have been implemented without the DRM-stuff. So your points 2 and 3 are obsolete.

     

    The things that were found were products that were meant to be encrypted only and were, for a short time, on DIM.

     

    The point still stands, unless DAZ got ahold of some miracle system no company had ever managed to make before, their only defense against an eventual crack is that perhaps our market is so niche that the really skilled crackers won't notice.

    I have seen cracks on some very niche products, that almost nobody users. The crackers do it for the challenge, how useful it is to them is largely irrelevant, very sad that these obviously bright people can not channel their energies into something more positive.

    Post edited by Havos on
  • 3dOutlaw3dOutlaw Posts: 2,211

    Whats the point of offering a product as both encrypted or not.  Does it have some bonus if someone chooses the encrypted version...?

  • Point 1 doesn't really prove that we've "been heard."  Doesn't change anything and I'm still NOT buying DRM'ed content here.  Thanks but no thanks.

  • bad4ubad4u Posts: 684
    edited January 2016

    I did not comment on previous thread and instead decided to wait what you guys come up with, hoping you might overthink your DRM decision. I don't have a problem with encryption, but will never spend a dollar on DRM protected content here as I've already seen too many users being the fools in the end when it comes to DRM. I know some users don't believe or care, they might have to learn the hard way some day, as any risk on DRM is only with the user and their investment. And no, your 'poison pill' doesn't change my mind or feelings about DRM.

    Still I'm fine with your decision and I'll be going to support those PA who release no-DRM content in future - if DAZ will still let them do. If not, I'll carry my money elsewhere.

    Good luck anyone with their decisions.

    Post edited by bad4u on
  • lxlx Posts: 2,994

    Well technically hearing is a receiving activity. It doesn't require any sort of follow up action.

    It's getting really silly really fast as a pop up notification though~

  • DAZ_Steve said:

    1. Encryption and DRM.

    ...

    Obviously this does not address some of the other issues...

    No, it doesn't.

    Such as the glaring (to me) reality that you retain ultimate control over any stuff that I might* pay good money to buy from you. Your out-of-business escape pod doesn't help me if you're still in business and busy changing the rules.

    * i.e. not

  • ByrdieByrdie Posts: 1,602

    Well. It's good you have a failsafe plan in the event you can no longer provide encryption keys ("going out of business/eaten by zombies/squooshed flatter than a pancake by a rampaging Godzilla" type scenario). 

    It is not good you are going down this road of employing Digital Restriction Methods that will do nothing to stop some people from doing illegal things with your products and everything to inconvenience legitimate users. So from now on my purchases will be even fewer, since I won't be buying anything encrypted, no matter how otherwise desirable.  Not even at the "incredibly low price of Free".  sad

     

     

  • L'AdairL'Adair Posts: 9,356

    While this may all be well and good for customers using 4.9—and there are many who would dispute that!—it does nothing to address the issue of customers who are still using earlier versions of DAZ Studio. Every single encrypted, DAZ Connect only product is unavailable to customers who haven't installed 4.9. From what I've heard, there are quite a few of us, and reasons vary from the age and limitations of hardware to the old adage, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." And everything in between. For myself, my current computer can barely handle 4.8, and my dsl connection tops out at about 1.5Mbps. I have no plans to upgrade until I can replace this computer with one that is both more robust and capable of handling at least one Nvidia card.

    So no matter how much I like a product, if it's encrypted, I won't buy it. (Though I will grab it if it's free...) Why would I purchase something, when it's released or later, if I have no idea when or if I'll be able to use it? How many sales will be lost from customers like me?

  • Wiccan1Wiccan1 Posts: 198
    edited January 2016

    So Does #3 apply to us manual file sorters? Through Windows file manager? You know... us dinosaur 1995-ers. devil

    Hey, I like Dinosaurs!  smiley   I will not be buying DRM content,  it smells bad.  sad

    Now, it will be ininterresting to see this.... (quoted from first post)  Solution: We have developed and fully tested a utility which will decrypt, and save in non-encrypted formats, Daz products on a customer’s computer. 

    If we can convert files into normal non-DRM and install them ourselves... well, it might be worth watching.  Seems like it might kill the point of DRM, but maybe no one will notice!

    Post edited by Wiccan1 on
  • IceCrMnIceCrMn Posts: 1,019

     

     

    Frank__ said:

    Crackers will crack DRM, not because of getting some 3d-models for nothing, but because of the challenge of cracking DRM. The usual thieves will use their code to crack DAZ-products and post them on the usual sites.

    I thought the DAZ DRM would last about 3 month, but I've read somewhere - maybe at DAZ - that the encrypted stuff is already available un-encrypted. (How much time you spent on establishing the already-cracked-DRM-funnies, while someone could work on animation-stuff on Studio, Genesis 3 in Carrara - I digress.

     

    The whole better handling of content, content updates, smart content etc. for beginners could have been implemented without the DRM-stuff. So your points 2 and 3 are obsolete.

     

    The things that were found were products that were meant to be encrypted only and were, for a short time, on DIM.

     

    Just think, if the DAZ encryption/DRM really, really works, they'll be able to give up the laborious 3D content business and sell their super-007-Q secrets to government security agencies and high profile persons with private email servers.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denuvo

    the best crypto teams on Earth are saying in 2 years it will be uncrackable.

    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-01-08-denuvo-game-crack-success

    The degree of difficulty it presents now is more than most teams are willing to even attempt.

    So, yes DRM is a thing of the past.

    The new anti-theft systems are using encryption.

    DRM is soooo last century.

    I don't know what encryption system Daz is using, and I really don't care. Good to see someone doing something to help protect 3D asset creators.

    I plan to support them. I'm just waiting for the tax returns to get here so I can go on my shoping spree :) 

This discussion has been closed.