Ok, with PWToon there is 'diffuse upper threshold.' Thresholds basically control how shaded things look. With the two thresholds the same, the shading is binary -- Diffuse color/Shadow color. If the thresholds are different, there is gradiation between the two.

For my strict B&W stuff, I keep both thresholds at 0 and rely on bump/displacement to add fiddly details.

Also, ambient light has an Ambient Occlusion value, which, again, creates an impression of shading. For 3-4 tone images (black, gray, white) I rely on no AO, just an even lighting so that all shadows are gray and the black comes from outlines.

With the last image, I used some threshold (75%) and AO to create some shading.

I want to avoid the issue of ending up with shading looking like 'cheap 90s CGI art.'

One approach I might want to try is to make a 'shading' render image of everything EXCEPT color and outlines, and run it through some sort of 'make it look penciled.' Mmm. I'd rather not, but... it would avoid overly generated-looking shading.

Heh. Well, doesn't hurt to try. Meanwhile, here's another render from same concept of a team of black superheroes (Code Blue).

 

This looks fantastic, Will! Was it rendered using pwtoon? 

Decided to try doing same image as PWToon B&W thing... and I was happy with the results! (also renders way faster, heh)

It is an intent vs understanding thing.

Few people understand what shaders actually are, and so few DS "shaders" are actually shaders.  Firstly, the vast majority of "shaders" in DS (and Poser for that matter) are nothing more than map changes.  Even "shaders" that are nominally supposed to be BASE materials, such as metals, are nothing more than a diffuse map, possibly a displacement or bump map, and some reflectivity settings.  Many "Glass" shaders are just lowering the opacity, and possibly adding a reflection map.  So these are more properly "Shader Presets" as they are just changes to parameters on another shader such as DS Default or Uber (Surface/2/Area).  A true "shader" is something like the Uber series, EustaceScrubb's Noir, or the pw Series that are a set of RiSpec codings that completely change the behavior of the surface, not just modify some basic parameters.  LAMH's internal hair settings are all true RiSpec shaders, with the presets set via the pane instead of Content Library icons.

So, if one has categorized their content library correctly, the current "Shader Presets" folder will contain many more icons than the corresponding "Shaders" folder.

+10

Not so long ago, I was still spinning eyeballs with shader, shader preset, on top of material preset's relationship to shader preset. Material/Shader to me have always been the same thing outside Daz. Why not just pick one and don't use the other one? But confusing noobs are more fun lol 

Eventually, I sorted them out, by using and studying AoA/ Dimension theory/ Omnifreaker/ Reality, and for iray Mec4D. Definitely learned lots from Carrara and users and later Octane. Daz forum regulars help a lot too, tons of tips from Bejaymac & Rich in my notebook.

Shader vs shader preset, now I know, basically the same thing in DS. (and yes most base shaders now are in the shader presets folder, Daz's own included)

And good to know about PWtoon base application is not required.  

Shader definition files, now that I've made a few experimental ones, which I reckon by Daz convention should have been called BASE shaders anyway?

It seems, all users need to know are 2 classes: BASE shader, and shader PRESETS. 

There should be one Shader folder in the library, split to 3DL and iRay, then further split into perhaps Product/Vendor name folders.

IMO...

added: yes, those products which simply adds texture maps should be labelled Texture sets. To me changing some shader preset settings on existing base shaders should not be qualify the product as "shaders" nor shader presets. At best material presets. 

Material preset products should be clearer about of the uniqueness of their shader base. Ideally top base shaders are used by material preset vendors like merchant resource and be labelled and marketed as such.

I had 4.9 before I bought pwToon. Worked for me. Win7 64bit

Hope you solve this.

I'm learning more and more how to use PWToon to create this look... mainly in knowing how to tweak Bump levels and line widths to get the looks I want, and how to control lighting.

Short form:

This looks best with Diffuse Maximum set to 0% (so there is no shading at all), specular shut off, and a single 100% lightsource (distant, ideally). Ambient can be used to create a three tone image (which is what I used here) so that details show up in the shadow. If you do that and still want the crisp look, make sure to set occlusion to 0% (although it's worth experimenting with to see if you want that look)

This looks fantastic, Will! The details are really coming through nicely. I'm wondering if applying what you've learned would help with your hunting drake image?

- Greg

I'm learning more and more how to use PWToon to create this look... mainly in knowing how to tweak Bump levels and line widths to get the looks I want, and how to control lighting.

Short form:

This looks best with Diffuse Maximum set to 0% (so there is no shading at all), specular shut off, and a single 100% lightsource (distant, ideally). Ambient can be used to create a three tone image (which is what I used here) so that details show up in the shadow. If you do that and still want the crisp look, make sure to set occlusion to 0% (although it's worth experimenting with to see if you want that look)

Update: Beta testing is over and the product is on its way to the DAZ Store.

Hello, I'm looking for 5 or so volunteers to Beta test a lineart-generating product I've been working on for quite some time, which I'm calling LineRender9000. See the attachments for some example images I've created using this toolset (I will try to add more as well). I've been working on a cel-shaded graphic novel sort of look, but theoretically this could be used for any sort of non-photorealistic setup that benefits from constant-width lines.

Ideally, as a beta tester, you will have time to play around and experiment with it this week and next and give me constructive feedback on how the product could be improved. If you're interested, please private message me with a sentence or two convincing me that your feedback will be good. 

I plan to host files and documentation on OneDrive, so having a Microsoft Live account is preferred, but not required. I'd like to get things started a little later this week if possible. 

I am not sure what the licensing agreement with DAZ includes with regards to being able to distribute licenses as the product owner, but assuming there are no conflicts legally, the reward for beta testing (assuming appropriate feedback is provided) will be a copy of the final product. If there are legal issues we'll work something else out.

-------------------

Here is my work-in-process product info:

LineRender 9000 is a toolset entirely inside DAZ Studio designed to support non-photorealistic art styles. It adds the capability to generate line art from 3d scenes in a highly automated way.  

Since it is based on custom cameras (camera shaders), LineRender's line art can be generated without changing object surfaces (materials), leaving your existing scenes intact.   

The built-in compositing allows for quickly combining your own rendering settings (using 3Delight, Nvidia Iray, or any built-in renderer of your choice) with the line art output from LineRender 9000. It's compatible with any textures, such as Visual Style Shaders and PwToon.  

Includes:  

• LineRender 9000 Scripted 3Delight render script which generates line art based on differences in color  

• Several custom shader cameras that render the scene in drastically different ways (to provide different options for line art generation).  

• LR9k AutoRender DAZ Script which automates rendering multiple times and compositing the results with one click.  

All of the components can be used independently or in conjunction with each other and will greatly expand your non photorealistic rendering capabilities.  

Experimenting with a strict B&W style some more...

Will: That is VERY impressive! I'm going to go back through this forum to see if you explain any more about the techniques you're using to get that crisp, clean line. Although I like the wood on the chair, have you tried playing with the bump maps to get more control of the way this renders. Everything else (except his hair) is so stark, and this is kinda soft in comparison, that I'm wondering if the bump maps could be ajdjusted to improve the way this object renders in a way that's still got texture, but is a bit more "in-line" with the rest of the image, if you know what I mean.

It's just PWToon, with a lot of tweaking settings.

And, yeah, I should probably have tweaked bump a little more to add more lines to the backdrop or less to the wood or... something. A more blank environment and detailed figure makes sense, but the way I did it was a little haphazard.

It was, however, mostly a speed test... I asked some friends 'hey, give me something to render' and I think I had the whole thing done in an hour.

I haven't played much with the pwToon shader since I got it a week ago, but here's a 20 second IPR render

"Technical Drawing" preset and default setting, only darken the grey blue shading for this. 

Only use a distant light and an uberenviroment. Not bad for a preview quality at 300x300 I think.

Thank you guys and gals for the response.

I was hoping since Toonycam was the only cam-shader among the 3Delight based toon options, it may act differently from say Manga or Visual. But it makes sense the outline iD is very specific to 3DL.

After more research I've settled on PWToon, on the merits on their web site documentation alone. No regrets and liking it.

DS is quite capable in the cel/ toon dept! 

I'm also pushing iRay to see I could come out with a toony feel that I like...there's potential there!

Still getting the flow between 3DL + IPR, and iRay interactive, enjoying Daz Studio again! 

Yay! Will agrees with me!

I like how pwToon is an all-in-one package. No multiple passes, no Photoshop/Gimp/etc trickery, and the flexibility to create a unique look and style for each user. I really think pwToon is one of the best Toon packages out there. Mind you, Visual Style Shader is an excellent package as well, but I've used pwToon longer so I'm much more comfortable with it. No slight intended to VSS.

One of the things I've been hoping for since Iray was introduced has been a real Toon shader. Something with as many features as pwToon with an outline feature, the ability to pick a shading color, and the blending modes. Even if it was something along the lines of the DS Toon Shaders, but pwToon has a nice set of features and is a really solid addition to DS.

I have and play with both Toonycam and PWToon. I prefer PWToon for being better at drawing fine fiddly details (driven by bump/displacement), but it can be annoying in a big scene where distances mean I'm adjusting line widths constantly.

Whereas Toonycam produces pretty decent lines and images fast... assuming you don't hit a bunch of bugs and can figure out how to get it to make the lines you need.

Yeah, I've got that one too Will! Some of the stuff you do with PWToon is great. I like the city crawling with dragons idea too, nice one Stryder.

Mix of things, including callback to another Stonemason product. ;)

Mostly PWToon in 3DL

What do you guys think?

PWToon vs. Toonycam style. There are things I like about PWToon style, but ToonyCam, when it's working, runs smooth, clean, and fast. Easier to set up (at least while it works)

 

That's a nice side-by-side comparison. Is it the same lighting setup in both?

I've been really liking working with Tony cam, but it's missing some of those fine details. http://willbear.deviantart.com/art/City-BattleF1-614887389 Another try with TonyCam, this time with multiple passes to get some shading and details. It's not the fine lines of PWToon, but I think I like the effect. One thing I should try is seeing if I can use PWToon and TonyCam together, or maybe do a 'fine lines' pass.

I have tried Toony cam myself and fall on this same problem with details, like you said. When I started using Manga Style SHaders however, I was able to keep certain details "in the shadow" by adding texture in the colour (use black and white images).

Still working/experimenting on shaders, and slowly getting there!

There are a number of 3DL shaders (most for sale in the Daz store) that can render outlines, and if you are familiar with 3DL settings, you can modify the settings yourself. Here's just one example of rendering as just outlines:

http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/685537/#Comment_685537

Will also recently posted a nice comparison of quasi-outline renders, in both pwToon and ToonyCam, here (these also include some shading):

http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/1276316/#Comment_1276316

Inkscape does a poor job tracing the bitmap to a vector. A third-party program, like AutoTrace, does a much better job, and it's free. Though it's more arcane than the simple GUI in Inkscape, you can create batch scripts to automate it. There are also some separate GUIs available, but I've found that once you learn the AutroTrace option switches, you just don't need them.

Live Trace in Illustrator also isn't bad, though that of course requires you to have Illustrator, which is not free.