The No Suit is for Genesis 3

There are two parts to the no suit. There are morphs and there are textures.

The morphs simply morph the shape into having the appearance of having a body suit. There are Low Definition and High definition morphs. The HD ones will likely not show up well until render time. These morphs are available on your regular G3M and can work with any character in your library.

The second part of the set is the Material presets. The material presets only work if you use the special included figure, as this figure has new unique material zones.  This figure is just like your regular G3M, except for the new material zones. That means you can apply any character preset you like onto him, and the morphs should work without a problem. The only difference is the new material zones.

Rawn

I'm not a blender user, but I've seen that it has some sculpting functions. You should be able to make morphs with blender, but I don't know how it compares to zbrush. Once you get comfortable importing and exporting back and forth from DAZ to a modeling/sculpting program to make your own morphs you'll want to do it all the time to fix wonky joint bends and clothing fits etc. 

One thing that I've found is that having 3D scans of real people to use for reference for anatomical detail has really helped. For example, I can see that the way V4's arm bends looks wrong, but don't have the anatomical knowledge stored in my brain to see how to fix it. A 3D scan of a figure of similar body shape with her arm in the pose tells me what I need to know, and with the scan next to V4 for reference I make the fix to V4 and save it as an arm bend fix morph for later use.

Linvanchene, one thing to take into consideration is that rendering a 20,000,000 poly scene is not the same thing as posing a rigged 20,000,000 poly basemesh . It would be painfully slow to work with the figures at full resolution in DAZ. You can try it by turning on HD morphs and boosting the subdivision of a Genesis figure to subD 4 - not the final render subD which only comes into play at render time, but the live posing subD. You'll have to go into the top subD slider's preferences to remove the limit on subD levels available, I think it tops out at subD 2 by default. Be warned that raising it to 4 has a very good chance of freezing your computer and crashing DAZ. When rendering, DAZ can only handle that many polys because it's putting everything else on hold and using all system resources to do it with nothing available to compute bend morphs and collisions etc. That kind of shifting of resources isn't available while working on a live scene though, which is why there are two different subD modes available - a low one for posing and a higher one for rendering.

I think a 100,000 to 200,000 poly basemesh for Genesis 5 would be a winner though, a good compromise. The face in particular could use the extra detail and more facial polys wouldn't cause joint bending issues, plus it's already on a separate UV map so it doesn't need to have the same resolution as the body. If V4 has 70,000 polys and people were using her in 2006, I think it could be stepped up a notch for today's machines, rather than down (heck, V3 had even MORE polys than V4). It's useful having the Genesis figures available for background characters, but they look a bit rubbery and toony without HD morphs (which we users aren't allowed to make) or displacement maps (which have many practical usability limitations compared to morphs).

Does anyone know why DAZ decided to make the Genesis line with such a lower polycount than the earlier figures? Is it to simplify weight mapping and clothes autofitting? Or to make them usable in video games?

I do totally agree with you Linvanchene that a higher res basemesh is desirable - I'd be very happy with a 100,000 poly figure until our computers are powerful enough to play with even bigger ones.

Low poly sculpting requires a change in workflow and tools. What is being discussed is way too much for general use figures. Took me a while but I have gotten the hang of making my base sculpts have the detail to work with subdividing without considering HD. There's plenty of tutorials on how to do this on the web. If you have zbrush, you definitely have what you need to make your characters without having a bloated 100K figure in a scene.

Also who would support two figures, a low poly that can be subdivided and applied a normal map and a super high poly figure that would lock the average user's workspace? There's no available resources for that. 

I'm not a blender user, but I've seen that it has some sculpting functions. You should be able to make morphs with blender, but I don't know how it compares to zbrush. Once you get comfortable importing and exporting back and forth from DAZ to a modeling/sculpting program to make your own morphs you'll want to do it all the time to fix wonky joint bends and clothing fits etc. 

One thing that I've found is that having 3D scans of real people to use for reference for anatomical detail has really helped. For example, I can see that the way V4's arm bends looks wrong, but don't have the anatomical knowledge stored in my brain to see how to fix it. A 3D scan of a figure of similar body shape with her arm in the pose tells me what I need to know, and with the scan next to V4 for reference I make the fix to V4 and save it as an arm bend fix morph for later use.

Linvanchene, one thing to take into consideration is that rendering a 20,000,000 poly scene is not the same thing as posing a rigged 20,000,000 poly basemesh . It would be painfully slow to work with the figures at full resolution in DAZ. You can try it by turning on HD morphs and boosting the subdivision of a Genesis figure to subD 4 - not the final render subD which only comes into play at render time, but the live posing subD. You'll have to go into the top subD slider's preferences to remove the limit on subD levels available, I think it tops out at subD 2 by default. Be warned that raising it to 4 has a very good chance of freezing your computer and crashing DAZ. When rendering, DAZ can only handle that many polys because it's putting everything else on hold and using all system resources to do it with nothing available to compute bend morphs and collisions etc. That kind of shifting of resources isn't available while working on a live scene though, which is why there are two different subD modes available - a low one for posing and a higher one for rendering.

I think a 100,000 to 200,000 poly basemesh for Genesis 5 would be a winner though, a good compromise. The face in particular could use the extra detail and more facial polys wouldn't cause joint bending issues, plus it's already on a separate UV map so it doesn't need to have the same resolution as the body. If V4 has 70,000 polys and people were using her in 2006, I think it could be stepped up a notch for today's machines, rather than down (heck, V3 had even MORE polys than V4). It's useful having the Genesis figures available for background characters, but they look a bit rubbery and toony without HD morphs (which we users aren't allowed to make) or displacement maps (which have many practical usability limitations compared to morphs).

Does anyone know why DAZ decided to make the Genesis line with such a lower polycount than the earlier figures? Is it to simplify weight mapping and clothes autofitting? Or to make them usable in video games?

I do totally agree with you Linvanchene that a higher res basemesh is desirable - I'd be very happy with a 100,000 poly figure until our computers are powerful enough to play with even bigger ones.

If you are using any morph add-ons like Morphs+, Creature Creator it's needed (I think it's also absolutely necessary for things like Steph4, SheFreak, Freak, etc).

Izabella's FBM looks tall and petite, really wonder what's the deal with her.

The Girl is the usual suspect, big breasts, stylized features but this time around, she seems to have bigger butt : )

And teen julie is well....teen julie.

Judging by the clothing morph, the body looks at least 15-16 to me. So about the same age as Josie it appears.

Tough judging someone's age from body shape; lotta petit figures out there, although the hips are generally wider, but those vary too. And I understand that adolescent in girls lasts till about 22?

It's the system used by the fourth geenration daz figures (Victoria 4, Michael 4, SubDragon) - it's way to add a new morph set to a figure without having to create a new CR2 for each possible combination of morphs (for the third generation figures each big morph expansion came with its own figure file, and they couldn't readily be mixed).

At its simplest, ExP is Daz's method of extending the available morph channels in generation 4 figures.  It's a bit more than that...

Unless you are rendering a facial close up, the HD facial morphs are almost impossible to see, and so add very little to the render. For characters at mid range and beyond there is little point using more than sub dev 1 (ie 80K polys for a Genesis character) and background characters can use base resolution. You would need to have incredibly detailed HD morphs to need sub dev 3 or 4, and those may get washed out due to details in the skin texture.

The question is at which subdivision levels were those HD morphs actually sculpted?

The next question then is how much detail is actually lost in the process of converting, transforming the subdivision levels from a 3rd party application to the DAZ Studio subdivision levels?

Unfortunately the product pages do not indicate at all if a HD morph was designed

- to be used at subdivision level 3 with 1’090’700 vertices

or

- to be used at subdivision level 4 with 4'357'308 vertices

- - -

A vertices count of 1’090’700 is just the mere basic starting point so you can see some detail when sculpting.

A reasonable sculpting mesh for close up renders would be about the next subdivision level that then jumps up to 4'357'308 vertices.

If the HD morphs were sculpted at 4'357'308 vertices then you also need to set the subdivision level to exactly the same amount during rendering or you will not be able to see the details.

If the HD morphs were sculpted at 4'357'308 vertices and you use a subdivided mesh with a resolution of only 1’090’700 you will NOT see all the detail that was originally sculpted.

For those interested the VRAM required at subdivision level 4 is:

4'357'308 vertices - 1888 MB VRAM

- - -

For characters at mid range and beyond there is little point using more than sub dev 1 (ie 80K polys for a Genesis character) and background characters can use base resolution.

Agreed. It would be a waste of memory to use the UHD figure line as background objects. For this purpose the current Genesis generation of figures is perfectly fine.

Maybe I was not clear enough on that point:

I was not recommending to replace the current Genesis line of figures but to add a new UHD line of figures for those users who can manage the system and render requirements of a 800'000+ vertices base mesh.

The reason why I set the base mesh number at about 800'000+ vertices was because this is the recommended resolution for a base mesh for sculpting in ZBRUSH when you use HD subdivision levels up to 50'000'000+ vertices.

This is explained in more detail in this video:

http://pixologic.com/zclassroom/lesson/hd-geometry

- - -

There is no  magic bullet, you have to be careful with what you use and how you use it. 

I guess we will be stuck with the current limitations until someone is willing and able to provide a solution.

If someone wants to have truly high detailed characters for close up renders one has to create them in Zbrush and use vertices counts of 4'357'308+

Maybe in the future there will be some new technologies that solve all the issues and limitations of bringing all those details back to DAZ Studio.

But I do realize that when I am the only one interested there is not much of a market at the current point in time...

Only Daz vendor have access to the HD morph plugin, so you may have to ask DAZ them self to get your hands on it. One of the perks of being a vendor here !

Displacement mapping is only workable with 3Delight as that is per pixel, Iray is per vertex !

interesting!

what about carrara displacement, is it per pixel or vertex?

Does explain why I rarely see the kind of morph details that I see in some V4 packages. Without HD morphing or displacement map trickery, you simply can't get the same level of morph detail.  Turning off the subdivision on the genesis figures is kinda eye-opening when you realize how few polys they really have. Though at least it's something for me to keep in mind when using more than one in a scene as I can do without a lot of detail for background figures.

Izabella's FBM looks tall and petite, really wonder what's the deal with her.

The Girl is the usual suspect, big breasts, stylized features but this time around, she seems to have bigger butt : )

And teen julie is well....teen julie.

Judging by the clothing morph, the body looks at least 15-16 to me. So about the same age as Josie it appears.

Only Daz vendor have access to the HD morph plugin, so you may have to ask DAZ them self to get your hands on it. One of the perks of being a vendor here !

Displacement mapping is only workable with 3Delight as that is per pixel, Iray is per vertex !

Another thread asked the question what is needed to create more realistic images.

Because that thread focuses on what can be done with the assets available now I split this up to a 2nd thread because it points at areas out of the reach of the customers.

To give the DAZ3D community a true leap in quality there could be a character generation with

Higher base model resolution

Have a quick look at

http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc-top-row-gallery.php

- - -

To paint and model fine details you may want a resolution of at least 1'000'000 vertices.

To go even further with HD geometry you may want to work in some areas with 50'000'000 or more vertices.

So how do you go from a model with 100'000 vertices to a model with 1'000'000 and more?

Subdivision levels:

When you add subdivisions each polygon on a model gets split into more vertices.

The original basic subdivision stays exactly the same.

But now at the higher subdivision levels you can sculpt and paint details.

Instead of having the whole model at an insane high vertices point some modeling applications allow you to add more vertices in just one area.

Example:

http://pixologic.com/zclassroom/lesson/hd-geometry

- - -

How do you bring the details back to DAZ Studio?

Currently for those with a modeling application there are four options to create high detail and bring it back to a DAZ3D figure each with their own advantages and disadvantages:

- Export / import model at higher subdivision level

If your system can handle it you can just export an .obj with a vertices count at 1'000'000 or even up to 25'000'000.

The advantage is that you can create details that can not be captured by maps or morphs.

You can alter the original mesh in any way you want.

Example:

Very high detail Hair, spikes and other curved forms that are not just sticking out in the normal direction of the model but end up in spirals or other more complex forms.

- Displacement maps

The advantage of displacement maps is that you can have the model at the base resolution and then apply displacement maps that capture all the detail.

You can alter the higher subdivision levels in any way you want

The downside of displacement maps is that unfortunately many GPU render engines do not handle them that well currently especially on lower resolution models.

- Morphs

The advantage of morphs is that you can dial in the details at different levels.

The downside of morphs is that you cannot alter the original subdivision levels.

This means all the details you add need to be created by moving the vertices around to other positions.

You can create some spiral shaped forms that you cannot create with displacement maps.

- HD morphs

The idea of HD morphs is to add details on a higher subdivision level.

This has the same limitation as normal morphs in so far that you can only move around vertices.

But because you can sculpt at a higher resolution around 1'000'000 vertices you can create some finer details.

The use of a tool to transfer HD morphs back to DAZ Studio is currently limited to official DAZ3D partners.

- - -

One type of figure with one base resolution is not able to fulfill the needs of different user groups

To summarize in a very simplified form

If you want to create more realistic images you need higher resolution models that are able to capture all the details.

Only if the actual original base geometry of the model has more vertices you can create all the details you want without being limited in one way or the other.

From that point of view a base figure created for high detail sculpting should have a vertices count of around 800'000 to 1'000'000.

[Start of Edit]

Updated / Edited to be more precise:

I removed a link to a 3rd party blog comparing different generations of Victoria and their vertices count because of user input that those numbers may not be accurate.

When you compare base and high resolution levels of Victoria 4, Genesis, Genesis 2, Genesis 3 you will notice that they stayed pretty much around the same level of vertices. In fact the from Genesis Generation 2 to Generation 3 the vertices count was actually lowered instead of raised.

When I tested this myself I found that G3F has a base resolution of 17'418 vertices and a high resolution of 68'744.

What is called "Base Resolution" in DAZ Studio is called subdivision level 1 in Zbrush.

What is called "High Resolution" in DAZ Studio is called subdivision level 2 in Zbrush.

[/End of Edit]

- - -

To me it seems in the past the goal was always to provide models that could in theory also be used for games.

The vertices count may have been low to make sure old systems can handle it.

It seems that DAZ3D now has a side company specialized for low resolution game models:

https://www.morph3d.com/

Maybe now that the needs of the game developers are covered  is there not also room to provide a more higher resolution model optimized for high detail sculpting?

- - -

3 different product lines of character models?

Maybe there would actually be room for 3 different types of character models by DAZ3D?

- Genesis for the average users

- Morph3D for game creators who need quality at lower resolutions that is optimized for real time rendering

- A UHD figure Generation for users who like to use DAZ3D characters and sculpt at very high resolution details

The underlying idea would be that at least clothing could be shared by all 3 product lines but character textures and morphs would be unique.

V4, happy to come out and see the light of day again.

I realized recently that Victoria 4's basemesh has a whole lot more polys than any of the Genesis models, which opens up a lot of possiblities for customizing with more realistic anatomy, expressions, and bend morphs. These renders don't have any displacement mapping, just custom morphs and normal maps on the basemesh. The skin is DAZ's Elite Lana skin with a lot of shader help from D Ordiales's tutorial on Deviant Art (I think he's worked out the best Iray skin yet, and I'll buy his video tutorial as soon as an English version is released. His Octane DAZ skin was also my favorite for that renderer). Also, I love the V4 Elite skins, especially Lana and Ariana. The bump maps on those are works of art. Clothes here were done in Marvelous Designer since trying to fit conforming clothes to custom V4 morphs is not fun or pretty.

I was thinking about the old figures, and got intrigued by the high poly-count of V3 and V4 since I was getting tired of having to make displacement maps to get the kind of realism I was looking for in G3F. In particular because I like to make a lot of custom morphs in zbrush for things like elbow, shoulder, and knee bend fixes, but making a displacement map to go with each morph was totally unfeasible. V3 turned out to be a bit too antiquated and difficult to work with, but V4 and M4 are absolutely gorgeous models. My new favorites. 

First Look

The first impression of these products based on what I see. If the promo shots are bad, sorry, not my problem. These are opinions based on what is shown, not what is rendered. If you have these and can comment based on USE, hop in and let us know what you think!

Basic Pajamas for Genesis 3 Males  I think the material options have good variety, I like that there's stripes, paisley, plaid-looking. But I personally can't get past the texture, it looks a bit plastic to me and doesn't show the lapels favorably with a few of the materials. I would also like buttons. I like the indentations at the bottom of the leg, and the length is good. I do not like that the pants only have crotch morph,  I want thigh morphs and there are no chest morphs. The slippers make it very functional but again, I want buttons!

Day In Bed  Looks like fun, and having a tray with coffee makes sense. Good rumpled linens. Assume the room is included? It says Day In Bed Room Only. It reminds me a bit of a gymnasium with those windows. Several are open- do they close? Nice big set, a lot of opportunities to use the room for other things too. 

Breakfast in Bed Pajamas for Genesis 3 Females  The top has wrinkles and seems very wearable, in these promo shots, the bottoms remind me of a Supersuit piece, the edges don't appear to have any depth based on the promos. They appear painted on to me, particularly the kneeling pose. HOWEVER, if you look at the Textures product, you will see they do indeed raise up off the leg, so it's a "go" on the bottoms too.  The lace at the bottom of the top is a nice feminine touch. 

Elementalist Witch for Genesis 3 Females  With my experiences with a hood, one morph- widen- isn't enough. What about raising the top?  What about pulling in the cheeks? Hoods are tricky.  The hood has a nice distinct shape, very flowing. So wonder if the figure shapes/Autofit take care of that hood. The skirt has a widen morph, which is useful.

Zombie Walker   Really gets the point across at first look!  That shirt has SIXTEEN adjustement morphs.  Pants don't have any listed, they have good wrinkles at crotch (no built in bulge) and at bottom. The shoes have a nice texture in the side panel.

The Youth Camp- Camper's Cabin  Love the idea, but not the unfinished walls. The light fixture was definitely the type I remember. Although the windows look like glass in the inside shot, they are listed as screens. Would like to see that with different lighting. Screens would be cool, and the windows look like screens in the outdoor shot. Like the size of the building and eight campers is a good number. 

Chlled Out Outfit for Genesis 3 Males  Again, not a fan of the black jacket material, looks plastic where I expect leather or soft material. I like the bird emblem on the black. I do like the different materials on the cuffs which contrast with other section, but I can't get past that plastic material. The collar seems relaxed on the black outfit but stiff on the red one, but there is an adjust collar so perhaps you can move it to where you like.  It has zip options for the jacket, to me the red jacket when unzipped seemed stiff in the promo.  The pants have good creasing around the crotch and wrinkling at the bottom, seemed realistic with the stitching too.  No closeups of the shoes however,  and I couldn't see much detail in what I saw. Anyone got a closeup?

Kimi Style for Genesis 3 Females  The neck cowl seemed very relaxed, comfortable and I really like the longer sleeves. That belt is fashionable, I like it being different. I haven't made up my mind on those front wrinkles of the pants or the dip that pulls horizontally between the breasts. Do note the outfit has a wrinkle strength adjustment for the top though.  It has a lot of supported breast morphs so this seems to have a decent amount of ways to tweak the outfit. So far as the texture set product, I'm not a fan at all of the bright blue one, looks cartoony in that promo, and a couple of the one toned pants looked pretty "meh" to me. (and here we go again- painted on. These promos don't do pants any favors.) The shirts in the Kimi Style Textures however, are quite fun. Colorful and unique! The shoes have some nice patterns too. 

Brigitte for Genesis 3 Females  Godin's eyebrows are really nice where the brows start, they aren't penciled/painted on and it adds realism. Her skin seems to have nice sheen in the promos. Seven eye colors are always nice too. I like Godin.

Gen X2 will transfer stuff to either Genesis or Genesis 2. Indeed if you have the old Gen X you should hopefully have it uninstalled. Gen X2 completely replaced GenX, and there is no need to use the older version at all.

Maybe Now I can confirm,, there seems no way to import bvh for genesis3 as default.

because, how I assgin node,,at least  these set nodes, (Thigh, sholder, forarms)  never record bend and side-side way rotation value.

it is perfectly no meaning ,,,

then I understand now why you plan to edit node directly. but it should be difficult,, when you remove node,, DS will auto-circulate

weight map assgined for delete node, then transfer it to parent nodes.  then it must cause problem.

you may need carefully re-color weight map,, I think.

And DS pose tools seems see Alias value, not see hidden rotation value. (though we can actually tweak hidden rotation,

eg I can side to side, or bend,, about twist node too,, if you tweak parameter setting (though usually I may not suggest it ,,)

anyway,, if you try to modify nodes, then hope to see hidden nodes, 

1 set parameter setting, as "show hidden prperties"

now I select Left Thigh bend node.  

then check each actuall rotation properties with edit mode.. I can find A and P.  P is real rotation prpoerties.

that means,, Left Thigh bend > "twist" is Alias node which assgined for "Left Thigh  twist",

A is alias properties, then as default,, user see Alias properties only..

2  now you see hidden Y rotate ,it is actual twist node,, for Left Thigh bend . then set parameter limit off.

now you can rotate it, and change Y rotate value.. after you limit off,, when you use pose tool (track ball),, the Alias twist value never change.

only the hidden Y rotation value should change. (I do not know,, how ds work so)

I do not know,, now you can import bvh and assgin twist value for the bend node twist.

===============

maybe if I were you, I do not try edit default figure node,, though if it work,, I can not use many contents for the figure,,

then I am now thinking,, most of genesis3female pose and genesis3male pose are compatible.

then I may import bvh for genesis2female,, then use conversion scirpt (in daz shop ^^;),

and use the animation (after save it as aniblock or pose sequence files)  for genesis3male,, it seems not cause many problem I believe.

at least it is more easy ^^;

So we now know for sure that she isn't Gia?

I saw the morph on today's outfit too but Gia morph was missing there so I thought this would be indeed just a nickname for Gia but now we know she is in the Fantasy category, makes me think of something like Nvinive style figure maybe?

You need to use Transfer Utility, for tail (modeled for gen2) convert  for Genesis with original rigs and weight (tail part)

you seems  have  clone which can use to convert figure of genesis2 to genesis1 (then auto-fit work)

 you can use the clone shape to transfer rig and weight by transfer utility. with merge hieralchy option.

though I do not check each option of transfer utility at current,,  I test with creature bundle tail for gen2M then ,

then transfer weight and rigs from genesis (cloned shape) to the item with merge hieralchy option.

now ihe tail seems almost ift genesis hip, then can move well.

(I do not remember each option detail ,,eg Resepct hidden facet how work, or Projection option ,,

But this item is actually geo grafted item,, then,, I may need more tweaking to convert it for gen.

(may modify mesh, then change it new geo grafted item for gen mesh, and transfer weight etc from current tail)

LOL

The reason is: rendering time. I have one HP workstation Z230 with:

• HP Z230T – Intel Core i7-4790 – 3.6 GHz Processor
• 16GB ram
• HP NVIDIA Quadro K620 2GB Graphics
• 1TB 7200 RPM hard drive

I was testing Iray with GTX960, 16G RAM and A6 6400K 3.9GHz CPU and the rendering time was tooo long, more than 30 minutes per frame so for 3 min animation 30fps would take 2700 hours or 112 days.

Trying Nviadia Cloud Rendering failed, it won't work easily with Daz3D and there is big buttle neck: each frame is around 200MB so it is around 1.08Tb - how to transfer quickly that amount to remote server?

So I decided to go with CPU rendering only as is lower cost comparing to GPU. 

Now, I have network drive with frames(RIBs) and workstation with Puppy Linux(30% faster than windows) and 3Delight processing each frame around 3 minutes or less - acceptable