G3M compared to G2M, Genesis, & M4
xyer0
Posts: 6,347
I have not come across any conversation about the relative lack of photorealism in G3M and the awkwardness of his expressions. Since Scott 6 (who was G2M and 3Delight textured only) it seems Daz is seeking to make their men look like game-ready characters, while the women are photo-realistic pin-ups. Even the exquisite Raiya has promos for Henryk (Michael 7) that look more like drawings than photos. The G3M expression set promos remind me of M4 expressions, which is to say, corny. Clothes sans folds do not help with the M4-like clumsiness. The earlier Genesis males are much more convincing as humans. Admittedly, I have not really been working with G3M, though I have purchased Michael and Leo Pro Bundles. But the promos and gallery images I've seen have done nothing to change my impression. Evidently, I am in the minority. I would like for the upcoming base males to have more photorealistic character and be suitable mates for the G3F(s). It is far easier to achieve painterliness with a photorealistic model than vice versa.
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Comments
Mike 3 had the best expressions of all DAZ males... in my opinion.
Gen 4 and on people have upper and lower jaws that are free moving elements. To me this sometimes makes a difference. In extreme expressions you have to move the upper jaw so the teeth look natural.... because in real people the skin stretches back with big smiles.
I just played with the Gen3 male expressions. Maybe because his limits are turned ON by default it limits some extreme expressions? With Gen 4 people ( maybe onwards? ) I hated how the eyelids went down when the eyes looked downwards. Maybe realistic, but you had to constantly use 'open eyes' to conteract it.
Thanks for your input. I've not worked with Michael 3 much; though I have him, he was before my time (I use him as an extra). I guess I won't know what the deal is with G3M until I have spent some time on him. I'll try turning off the the limits on expressions.
Genesis 3 is capable of much more realistic expressions than any previous generation due to a ton of additional facial bones. Many pre-packaged expression "morphs" you see don't always take proper advantage of those and therefore look bad (which is why I haven't been buying many expression packages for Genesis 3). For me, the expressive capabilities of Genesis 3 figures are the only reason I've switched to using them.
I disagree with your assessment on the characters and their expressions. Some of the clothes are lacking.
Perhaps the forums are where I should be looking for promo renders. Thank you.
Although I have noticed much better expressions in the G3F, I have yet to see a G3M expression set that compared favorably. Perhaps it is the limitations of masculinity that make most of the sets suitable only for goofy boys. Thanks for your feedback.
G3M uses the same technology as G3F so the expressions should be equally capable of realism, I think the problem is more our perception of what realism is.
Neither G3M or G3F is really good at creating the deep crannies that exist in most real strong expressions (nor were any of the previous figures for that matter), However in the Real WorldTM images of women tend to have those strong lines photoshopped out more than men. So the non line-y expressions on on women match closer to our perception of they look (but they really aren't)
That said I find the expressions for both G3s much better and easier to get strong expressions that don't just break the model (especially smiles that dont look like the wearer is in pain)
You are not the first to suggest that the promo renders do not adequately advertise the figures.
Also realistic extreme snarls, yells, things like that just weren't possible in previous generations, but you can get much better results with genesis 3 due to the head rigging.
It's not really a limitation of the genesis 3 model - it's that the people producing the expression sets aren't yet taking full advantage of the model's capabilities. Like I said, I've been avoiding just about all expression packages that have hit the store for genesis 3 (male and female) because they're not realistic enough, knowing the model is capable of more. You're better off creating the exrpessions yourself for now.
Here's a relatively quick render of a G3M character with a full smile. It only took a few minutes to set up. While there probably should be more creases around the eyes and mouth, that would be the case with previous versions too, and it was much harder to create and tweak a smile this wide without the mesh straight up breaking.
(ignore the teeth material, I'm still working on that)
HD morphs could/probably do add more of those missing details...
yeah I'm kinda hopin someone makes HD jcms for the face, or hd expressions at least
The mouth part of the smile is fine. But like you said, the eyes betray (rather than portray) the realism of the emotion. And that's what makes the expressions look goofy. On females, a sexy feminine squint is all that is necessary to fix that. On males, that is not always an option. But my opinion is based on observation rather than experimentation; so, I must defer to your experience.
I'll take you up on that suggestion. Thanks.
I agree with that, a lot of the work on HD morphs goes on the hands and knees, so unless you have a fetish on those parts of the body, they are unlikley to be the focus of the render. It is the quality of the face that makes or breaks most pictures, and any help to improve this gets my vote.
Feet?
Come on...shoes are big sellers so that means a lot of the time they are going to be hidden...right?
HD morphs for feet seem so...I don't know...low priority?
I said knees (or I am missing some irony in your post), not feet, however if you look over at the renders on DA, then I would have thought for many HD feet would be a very high priority.
I do agree with the goofiness. I also think that Gen 3 male needs more effort and time spent on his looks and development. Although I find Michael7 a vast improvement over Version6 whose breasts and weird eyebrows and brow area were frightful, I do think that more can be done.
Clearly at DAZ Store there is so much more energy put into development of all things female that the men are still at the starting gate and second stringers.
I'd really like some better skins. The lack of skins is a real stumbling block for my work, and since I can't use gen 2 skins (yet), I find it a frustrating development.
Expressions for me are often overdone for men. They look like characters from The sims game with extreme pout, extreme grin etc.. Most adult men don't grin like the Joker, or lick their lips while learing . Very few expressions actually look attractive to me, beyond making the eyes squint and put on a serious expression.
I am told gen 3 has better facial bones, but I can't say the expressions look more real in the men because of it.
Thank you for articulating my point much more incisively than I did. The expressions are just like the Sims. I would think that the vendors who chose to do expressions might go through the great Hollywood actors of the past forty years and mine their movies for expressions that convey emotion without careening into bufoonery. That is, since (as j cade pointed out), our idea of reality is trained by what the media shows us.
As for more skins, M4 to G3M Add-on Pack for TT just came out, and the V4 to G3F version works fairly well, unless you're doing all nudes.
that was basically confirmed by a Daz team member in the PC+ forum:
The women and their associated products sell more, they get the attention.
So lamenting the state of the male line does no good. Buy it, even is its mediocre? That's too bad. Although, I must admit... little I have bought is mediocre. They should, however, listen to more than just analytics. Applying a critical eye towards some of the things I have bought has led me to be certain that I am unlikely to buy from certain artists. And if the next bundle that comes out has a predominance of items from those artists, well... I won't buy it. Not because I don't want the model, or to support the model, but because I do not believe in the quality produced by certain artists. Does the analytics tell that story? Not over the short term, that's for sure.
Pity it becomes a vicious circle at some points. Daz creates few or poor male products, analytics say male products don't sell, Daz puts less effort into male products... Admittedly just following the forums isn't always ideal, but at least combining the methods could get a better feel of the market than just one method alone. Does explain a certain lack of diversity in product offerings though... Other than some stuff from a handful of artists there's not much that's really unusual and a larger amount of products are starting to look a bit too similar. Not that this is unique to DAZ or the 3d content market. Everyone from consumer electronics manufacturers, game designers, and movie producers seem intent on following the safe predictable path of making the same product that worked before with just a little variation. At least the indie fields seem to be growing in some industries allowing us a break from the same old stuff. (Though a lot of them try to replicate what was successful for other indie artists. often without really noticing what made something successful in the first place.)
I don't even bother with the Product Suggestions forum anymore. All you get is people posting replies with products that aren't what you're suggesting.
While the number of products no doubt reflects that you shoudl note that Daz originals do include a fair amount of male cntent, and you certainly shouldn't infer that elss work goes into the male content than the female.
I don't agree that Daz Originals include a 'fair amount' of male content. I don't think less work goes into male content, but I don't think there is the same level of interest in it by your in-house creative staff.
I do have the impression less work does appear to go into some men's content though. Leo had only one eye color. Many of the new guys are being released without unshaven options or other options like they once had like body hair. Compared to female characters which include makeup and nails of many hues, the men are being release with less than they used to.
Good point, and they all have the same list price of $44.95
Since men appear to get short shrift, then their prices should be lower, just as women are treated in the human workplace.
Fortunately there are other stores. Renderosity has a new male Kane with great mats for 3delight which includes mesh body hair, beard stubble , armpit hair and chest hair all as separate props to add on. I'm not sure why the male content sold here has been so stripped lately. The Gianni pro bundle for example was pretty weak with very limited body hair options.