Ethnicity quistion
chris_settlemoir
Posts: 362
in The Commons
ok this may sound stupid but.How can you tell what ethictity some of the fairer g3 females are? reason im asking some of the scenes are location based or the cloths ect i would rather ask because i know with the knew release i know they had at least one other middle eastern g3f can you tell me some of whos im not good at these things ugh
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Most of them are broadly Caucasian - but there are no absolutes, if it looks OK as an <insert group here> use it that way if you like.
And of course not all 'whites' are "Caucasian", a minor detail which apparently escapes too much notice.
Well, hey, a lot of actors in Hollywood have made long careers out of being able to be 'ethnic.' (sigh)
i know we have a few asian gen3 female and a black and middle eastern i thought id ask what else is here im just wondering sorry if it seems odd question i just like divisty in my renders
Using its strictest defintion, I believe caucasian refers to a racial type, in particular head shape, rather than skin color. For example, most people from India are caucasian, and South Indians in particularly can be very dark skinned. The bulk of caucasian countries (particularly the rich ones) are lighter skinned, which is why many think it is a term for people with white skin.
I have to add here that the diversity whithin ethnic groupings is larger than the diversitiy between ethnic groupings, and that the separation into certain ethnic groupings is rather haphazardly, ususally done from the outsider.
You can find any feature commonly assigned to a certain ethnic grouping within each other group... I could go on, I will stop here.
Even within the Caucasian grouping there's a lack when it comes to the DAZ females. Most of them seem to be Scandinavians, Central Europeans and Russians. While there's a distinct lack of Mediterranean, Arabian, Semitian, Persian and Inuites among the whiter girls. We've finally got some Indian looking ones the last years though. (then I'm talking New Delhi, not Lakota, there's no Native Americans available.)
What Linwelly said. +1
However, there are physical attributes that are more common in some human subgroups than others. To the extent that an audience's or viewer's expectations are what really drive an artist's ability to make the viewer believe that the image depicts someone of a particular ethnicity, then learning what features are more common amoung various subgroups can be useful. Here is one example drawn from plastic surgeons, i.e. people whose business it is to have detailed understanding of the human face. This compares some common features among people from part of Asia to common features of people from part of Europe. For example, the length, shape, and prominence of the chin. http://www.asianplasticsurgeryguide.com/overview/asianeuropeanface.html
But as you know, people from Asia and people from Europe have been migrating through trade, war, tourism,... for thousands of years. Furthermore, they have co-populated other areas (Australia, Americas, Africa) while mixing with additional populations there. And people from other areas have gone to Europe and Asia. So not only has what Linwelly said always been true, but our commonalities have been being reinforced by marriage. All of this would tend to make the appearance of any one trait less unexpected if it appeared on someone of a background for whom that particular trait was not the majority. This plastic surgery example was for Europe and Asia, but the point is more general.
Again, focusing on what the viewer expects as opposed to what is "real," Hollywood has a long history of typecasting some actors as "ethnic." One of the classic actors in this niche was Anthony Quinn, who was of Mexican and Irish ancestry. One of his most famous roles was playing Zorba the Greek, but he was also cast as an arab in Lawrence of Arabia, asian/pacific Islander in the Hope/Crosby road pictures, and on and on. He won 2 oscars, and numerous other awards and nominations so I'd say the audience was generally able to accept someone with his features believably being the various parts he was cast.
To sum up, plus one to what Linwelly said, but it doesn't hurt to have some information on facial traits that are more common among some subgroups than others. It can help you meet viewers' expectations, but Anthony Quinn (and many others) have amply demonstrated that viewers' expectations are not really that big a deal, so don't over do it.
i hope no one mistook my post , or anything its just i hardly see any oliveness shades or anything like that and i was like hmmm why/
Diomede I can agree to that, and Chris don't worry not mistaking your post, I wholehartedly agree that we need a greater variety in the shade of skins, male and female. I bought the skin builder pro for Genesis and g2f to get the shade I want and I tend to force my g2m in those skins as well
(not using the g3 figures much as I would have to get all the morphigs for those again)
It is not quite as bad as ALL Caucasian. Whilst I agree the largest majority are, I have plenty of African, Asian and other ethnics characters for DAZ characters, including M4, V4, Genesis 1 and 2. The ability to share skins and morphs between figure bases, makes them more suitable for other races (including alien and fantasy ones) then any other figure bases I am aware of.
From various Dictionaries
Caucasian In the racial classification developed by 19th-century anthropologists, Caucasian (or Caucasoid) included peoples whose skin colour ranged from light (in northern Europe) to dark (in parts of North Africa and India).
Caucasian Relating to one of the traditional divisions of humankind, covering a broad group of peoples from Europe, western Asia, and parts of India and North Africa.
The Caucasian race (also Caucasoid[1] or occasionally Europid[2]) is a taxon historically used to describe the physical or biological type of some or all of the populations of Europe, North Africa, the Horn of Africa, Western Asia, Central Asia, and South Asia.[3] The term was used in biological anthropology for many people from these regions, without regard necessarily to skin tone.[4] First introduced in early racial science and anthropometry, the taxon has historically been used to denote one of the three proposed major races (Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Negroid) of humankind.[5] Although its validity and utility are disputed by many anthropologists, Caucasoid as a biological classification remains in use,[6] particularly within the field of forensic anthropology.[5]
Between the big morph packs and various other morphs, like http://www.daz3d.com/ethnics-for-genesis-2-female-s and http://www.daz3d.com/ethnicity-for-genesis-bundle , I've been pretty satisfied.
Of course, that means actual model releases are of limited interest for me, but that's fine. When I buy them, it's usually for all the extras (hair, clothes) they come with.
This is an issue I constantly mull over in my own mind. For me there are four issues that interplay.
1. Sales driven
Supposedly CG vendors recreate that content which the public will purchase. But this is really only half true if we are fully honest with ourselves. Most of the time vendors (because they are mere humans afterall) tend to create the types of content they themselves would like to purchase, and hope that others will agree by showering them with sales and requests for more stuff in the same vein. It is usually only a veteran or otherwise highly skilled vendor who can create content by requested commission only and have it turn out to be any good. Therefore, if you personally tend to like to render lighter skinned females, then those are most likely the types of skins you will attempt to create for yourself and to sell to others. If for example you tend to produce renders with characters that are "sexy,"...considering that what is considered sexy is highly subjective...then if you personally do not find darker skinned individuals attractive, you will have little reason to ever purchase a darker skinned texture. Users with a broad artistic sensibility outside of what is safe and cute and sexy are less likely to fall into such traps. And indeed, it is a trap. I always think the whole point of this fantasy stuff is to delve into areas where we are less familiar. More on that in a moment.
2. Familiarity
Similar to what is stated above, a good deal of what makes a human being or a skin texture attractive is our degree of familiarity with the subject matter. If you live in an area where darker skinned people are quite rare, then chances are you may not have a very clear impression of what a darker skinner person could or should actually look like, so you may find yourself with a library full of seemingly light skinned characters. You might ask yourself Just how dark is "dark. And just how light is "light?" Unsure of what the answers might be, one might decide to play it safe with skin tones they see every day. As a darker skinned person myself, it is a struggle I face when rendering lighter skinned people. How much red should there be in this character skin? How many freckles and blemishes? It would not be surprising that if I was to vend a custom skin texture it would be a skin tone I am highly familiar with in my own personal life. Some people do not see the need to go outside of their comfort zone, and those people are really missing out in my view. Even if you arent familiar with a particular ethnic group, one should still know the basics of skin and how to make it look good. One of the biggest pieces of advice I've given people as they study skin rendering in unbiased engines is to not be stuck on any one particular skin texture or range of skin tones. The real "truth" of skin rendering only reveals itself after you've tested lost of different ranges and found the common threads between them. Which is another reason why I try to discourage people from trying so hard to make finished "art." and instead they should allow themselves to focus on technical studies sometimes with no expectations. This way you have a reason to render skins outside your comfort zone even if you don't have a particular project that demands it...yet.
3. Resources
"Ain't nothing like the real thing"...so the song goes. Most of the skins we see in the store are based off of real photographs of real humans. The good is that its based on something real. The bad thing is that all that realism means one has a very narrow range of options for useage that will look good. Morph an asian looking character and put an Elite Rob texture on him and it will look quite odd. For this reason there are lots of different human skin references each representing a particular and narrow range of usage. Also realize that with darker skin tones, very often some degree of white specular is captured during the photoshoot, distorting the color profile drastically as well as lowering saturation. Even if you can find a good skin tone in the medium ranges like that of a s guy like "Drake." you're still faced with making him look like he should after he is rendered.
4. CG Rendering and Lighting
Part of the issue is with the million different ways we have to light and render our characters. The rather light and rather dark skins are easy to spot. It is those tones in the middle...those Beyonce type skins that are so tough. Even in real life, depending on the lighting conditions, Beyonce could appear quite light or dark skinned. The Sean character in the store is an example of a skin tone that is darker than the average caucasian, even possible a person of some mixed caucasian and african, perhaps even a latino person. This is a very beautiful skin tone quite rare in the Daz store likely for the reasons I mentioned above.
All this to say that if things work out the way I have planned, there will be products that finally address those skin tones we so often see neglected in the store currently. Cannot say much more on it yet as its still a WIP. But yeah, we can and should do better than this. The time is coming.
Really? Could have fooled me
Seriosly though, even though there is no doubt a predominance of "white girls" (and boys), there are quite a few alternatives available as well. Combined with the "base" body and head morphs, a little creative dial spinning, and possibly some shader/texture manipulation, the possibilities are nearly endless. Of course if someone only wants to load/pose/render. then your options are definitely more limited for "non-white" characters.
Below are some examples I found here in about 5 minutes of searching.
https://www.daz3d.com/ethnics-for-genesis-2-female-s
http://www.daz3d.com/genesis-3-female-merchant-resource-dark-skin
https://www.daz3d.com/monique-6
https://www.daz3d.com/mei-lin-6
https://www.daz3d.com/kiaria-for-mei-lin-6
http://www.daz3d.com/fwsa-samira-hd-for-victoria-7
http://www.daz3d.com/fwsa-taia-hd-for-victoria-7
http://www.daz3d.com/ej-etta-for-genesis-3-female-s
http://www.daz3d.com/ej-atsuko-for-genesis-3-female-s
http://www.daz3d.com/p3d-quinty
http://www.daz3d.com/elite-texture-bundle-rob-and-marie
http://www.daz3d.com/v4-elite-texture-maya
Very often darker skins can be used on lighter characters and vice versa, provided you have a way of tweaking the saturation as well as the brightness. You also need a manner to isolate the palms and soles. If you simply lower the diffuse intensity of a lighter skinned texture you will end up with soles and palms that are also too dark. If you apply a darker skin and increase the diffuse to make it seem lighter, you could well end up with overblown soles and palms.
Fact is, all human skin is roughly the same. Different melanocyte densities, sure. But otherwise, all human skin is more or less equivalent.
IMO, it's hard to get a *convincing* ethnic 3d figure because many figures are geared towards a particular physical standard. For instance, many of the Asian figures for G2F, aside from the skin tone, were not convincing because of various choices in facial modeling. It's a lot better now with Genesis 3: Cailin (http://www.daz3d.com/cailin-for-victoria-7) and Chiyo (http://www.daz3d.com/chiyo-for-victoria-7) are some examples.
My fav reply was from a neighbour of Caucasian descent who assured me that they were descendants of "aliens" who had crashed into the Caucasian Mountains over somewhere in Germany ... right ....
Anyhow, not real skins, but real skin tones ... have 7 batches of them in my texture folder. Have come to the conclusion that 'everybody' has a slighter different shade of skin colour :-) One can add them to one of the other dials besides diffuse for different end results too.
I have the skin builder as well for this very reason. And it makes somes absolutely stunning skin. And not just human skin I might add lol. And I have purchaseds most of the ethnic morphs I could find making it a bit easier to get the look I am going for.
Lack of resources: there is a brand new tool called Google Images. Using it, you can find pictures of any subject, including people. Using those information, you can create realistic characters in terms of facial structure and skin tones. Try it, it is absolutely fascinating <vitriolic sarcasm totally intended>.
Having a look at photos isn't enough - in general the artists need actual photos of the skin (not at all the same as portrait images) with usage rights that allow their use in textue building - not something that will come up via a Google image search.
I'm pretty sure that is greatly overstated. Of course PAs will be influenced by their own thought processes, quite possibly that will affect the products they produce in some respects, but those who are led predominantly by their own inclinations will - unless they are very lucky - not enjoy the best sales. The "what sells" is not just personal perception but the result of discussion with other PAs and with Daz (or, I would imagine, other store administrations).
Oh of course, a 2 minutes search with Google Images will definitely give you a high-res skin merchant ressource with the proper usage rights for any character you may want to create... <sarcasm totally intended too>
And using what as an alternative?
and with what clothing content?
Perhaps I missed it, but other than the venerable Vicky/Mike4,
I did not see any ethnic/racial or even body mass variety, from
figures like: Dawn ,Scartlett,Antonia even, Rex& Roxie,Sydney pauline etc etc.
Sure "Rakishi" gives you one Obese Asian male but what if I need him
to be fit & muscular or frail and elderly?
Another aspect of this discussion that is often not mentioned are MIXED RACE Characters.
My two children( ages 18 & 20) are mixed race, the product
of a light skinnedBlack male (Me) (see my forum Cg avatar)
and a white skinned woman of urguyan/soutern Italian parents(my ex wife)
The best product for mixed race Characters is the one linked by Timmins
http://www.daz3d.com/ethnicity-for-genesis-bundle
This one gives you the option to mix the top & bottom facial Charcteristics
of one racial group with the others.
Another thing about Ethnicity for Genesis: I found it SO useful I actually use it transferred to G2M/F (through GenX2) more often than I use just about any other ethnic morph.
Though usually I use these morphs dialed at about .2-.5, maybe mix them, and then fine-tune with the big morph bundles. In particular, I find, for black people, a lot of morphs the noses are still on the tiny side.
I HIGHLY recommend the bundle of FREE morphs, which overlaps with a lot of this stuff and, with some diligence, gives the power to dial in a lot of ethnic types:
http://www.sharecg.com/v/73186/gallery/21/DAZ-Studio/DieTryings-182-Morphs-for-Genesis-2-Male (and G2F, and Genesis, which you can search for there)
For example, this character uses Ninive (who is very caucasian) with morph bundle, and nothing but some tone changes on her skin. It's not the best thing ever, but I also didn't work on it very long and was still able to move away from a caucasian look using nothing more than the bundle of G2F head morphs.
yes I have the free morphs from "Die trying"over at Share CG.
In fact I had used the V4 versions along with the classic morphs++ to create
A Female V4 Chracter of Italian& lebanese Arbab parentage for my current animation Film project.
when I migrated to the genesis platform after getting a new win7 PC
I used the GENX 2 plugin to transfer her Face perfectly to the Genesis 2 female.
I did similar transfers for a V4 based russian Female to gen 2 female
and M4 based Russian military Commander to the Gen2 Male
this opened up a whole new door of variety for my film project.
This silly notion that you cant get variety from a single base figure
is only put forth by people who are not using genesis at all .
I can very easily create a muscular asian male with Genesis 1 or 2, and have the advantage of a full wardrobe after I have finished
Edit: I would be interested in knowing which other stores you mean for these SM (or other) characters. I believe you can name them here, as long as there are no links. I remember someone posting that there were more Miki3 characters available than V4, and I was intrigued to know where these were available
Let's not turn this into a platform/site/figure war, please.