Embracing Change: The DIM
Nyghtfall3D
Posts: 813
Evening all.
I don't use the DIM. Never have, and would rather not.
In light of DAZ's plans for future content, I decided to give the 4.9 beta a whirl and see if I can embrace change.
I'm about 6 minutes into a 13-minute long video tutorial on how to add meta data to old content, and would like to ask a question.
How in God's name is going through all that trouble any better than simply navigating the Content Library, just to be able to turn old content into Smart Content?
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I'll be honest.. I've never watched any vidio and I sure lord do not add meta data to old stuff. If it doesn't already have meta data (someones been working on it full time for months now) I just stick it in a catagory and am on about my business. And I still like the content library sometimes. Of course the Studio content part is lovely and organized because I have been letting DIM install things since it came out. Well except for the old poser stuff. But often that is more work than it is worth. If it is imporant I resave it as a studio subset and then put it in the proper catagory. I have never had enough time to put it into organizing so I am thankful that it has been properly organized for a while just installing. Well except for a few exceptions that I'm use to now.
My original motivation for learning to add metadata is to link materials to models, particularily with Poser Format content since the materials for those products typically reside deep inside the Pose library or if there are separate StudioCF installer, in the DAZ Format library. Unfortunately, most Poser Format content is "Old Content". My effort is rewarded when a product has lots of material add-on sets such as the sample pic showing the many shirt material options for Veranil for M4, though I don't remember the last time I used this clothing set, or any other Poser Format clothing for that matter.
Edit: I wouldn't recommend spending the time to add metadata to old content, unless you are motivated to do so, though understanding how to create it allows you to adjust/fix/tweak metadata for content that is delivered with metadata.
Greetings,
It's somewhat akin to trying to understand why one should drive a car by watching a video on how the best drivers perform 'drifting' maneuvers. :) Editing metadata is a power feature that DAZ themselves use, but that you don't generally need to.
Categories are helpful, however, if you want to create your own collections, even of things that don't have metadata.
In the end, you can still use the Content Library, and in fact I usually do. I just spend more of in the Categories view than groveling through the folders looking for the 'pose' set that's actually the materials for that thing that was 10 levels down in an obscurely named directory, generally with lots of '!' and '+' signs. Sure, I had to find that thing once, and the textures for it once, but once I do, I can put them together in a category entry trivially, and never have to dig into the Poser directory for them again.
I loathe searching the Poser content tree(s) and categories mean that I never have to deal with it more than one more time for any given piece of content.
But you don't need to edit metadata, or even use the Smart Content tab, to use categories. That's all handled by the database. The advantage the installer (either the in-app one in the latest beta, or DIM) gives you is that it sets up almost all your DAZ-purchased content with mostly sane Categories to start off with.
-- Morgan
I use the smart content pannel and the Content library interchangabley, depending on what I'm looking for..
Often I use search in CL to find a part of what I'm looking then right click >>go to mapped folder....
Or like select a figure and hit smart content to quickly get a pose for testing.
Same here.
I often go to SmartContent first, and then if what I want is not shown there (or if I know it won't be), then I go hunting for it in the Content Library.
I've been on a mission to try and categorize everything but it is a losing battle. It would take me many hours to just sit there and do it and frankly that is too boring. So I do it as I think of it but I buy more content than I categorize so most of my database is not categorized.
Smart Content is not going to suit my workflow, so I'm testing the Content Library with the DIM. The results of my experiment are why I don't use the DIM, and insist on manually organizing content with Windows Explorer:
I installed the G2M Starter Essentials. I don't need the clothing that comes with it, so I deleted the Clothing folder by right-clicking it in the Content Library and deleting it. DS deleted the corresponding files and system folder under People/Genesis 2 Male, but left the textures folder and files in the Runtime folder and the geometry files in the data folder. I then used the DIM to uninstall the Starter Essentials. It deleted all of the pertinant files, but left the system folders, including the Runtime and data folders. I was able to repeat that process multiple times.
And DAZ wants us to believe using DS to manage content is better? I wholeheartedly disagree.
EDIT: I was using DS 4.8 for this experiment, which I installed with the DIM.
Sorry, but that is a straw man. You know that DIM is just following the 'rules' that Windows has set up for uninstalling things. Windows has ALWAYS been that way. I don't care what uninstaller was used, there were ALWAYS bits and pieces left behind. THAT is 'normal' for Windows. Deleting folders by hand in Explorer, after an uninstall is something as old as Win95.
You don't like and don't want to use it...fine. But don't go spreading blatant BS when you full well know that Windows itself is 99.99% to blame.
I download it all through DIM then copy them to the categories files that I created myself. After cataloguing everything I have, I have a pretty good understanding of where to look for the new content it downloads (doesn't hurt that it turns blue either) and just put it in the category files that i created that work the best for my work flow.
Content is not installed the same way programs are. You won't even find content in the Add/Remove Programs section of the Windows Control Panel.
The primary function of the DIM is to automate the process of installing and removing content. It does not use the Windows Installer when performing either task, and I have yet to see any Windows Installer dialogue appear since using the DIM to install DS 4.8.
And yet, Windows will still create hidden files...like desktop.ini and such that DIM did NOT install and won't remove...as Windows rules. So it is NOT DIM's fault that the folders don't go away. It's just following the rules.
No, it will not.
The only thing the DIM does when installing content is open the zipped content files and copy them to Content Library. Windows does nothing to those files before or afterward.
What I've just discovered is that the DIM deletes everything but the Runtime/Textures and Library/data folders when you uninstall content. And Studio doesn't even touch the files in those folders when you delete content via the Content Library.
For you..it does not work for you. It does however work a treat for thousands of other people. Myself included. Smart content may not work for your work flow but it has speeded up mine dramaticaly since the beta. It works for scores and scores of people and for them it is the only way. It is a matter of taste. Some people need the hold over organization they created to deal with the poser 4 runtime and some people have never been able to use anything other than smart content. It all depends on the person and what they got use to when they started.
I don't really get what Smart Content has to do with DIM at all? I've been using DIM since I started using Daz: I used Smart Content for the first day when I didn't know where anything was or how it worked, and then went straight to using Content Library, mainly in the categories section which I made my own copy of the Content Library in, and then rearranged it to my liking.
I completely agree that it's irritating that Genesis figures are only available as Essentials packs. Yes it's great that they're free, but a lot of us only use the base figures and don't want the 500mb of other stuff that has to come with it. A standalone figure download would be much appreciated.
Windows doesn't make it easy, but generally it is software vendors not writing their uninstallers correctly.
And as Nyghtfall said, the responsibility is down to the DIM, not windows; it knows where it installed it, or it should as it did install it; ergo: the information should already be present to uninstall. It is therefore down to DIM to use the information it has, and it clearly doesn't.
Blame MS when its their fault, but don't use them as the whipping-boy. No one should have the devine right that kings of old had, and so should be held accountable; namely DIM, in this instance.
Personally I like lots about the DIM, but I still customise aspects as it suits me. And will continue to do so as long as DIM is available.
It makes sense that those folders remain. They are after all part of the Runtime system, and why recreate them the next time you install content. With HDD space so cheap, why even fuss about that?
It always has been that an uninstaller will only completely remove something that its installler installed...except if something was added that it ddn't install. Dropping a desktop.ini, thumbs.db or anything other file, by Windows, into a folder will kill DIM's (or any other uninstall method, except manual) ability to remove that folder. Runtime/Textures WILL get a thumbs.db...at least one.
DIM is using the information it generated when it installed a product to find and uninstall those files. It does not delete the folders because as far as it knows from the information it is currently using those folders may be used by other products. I like that DIM is a simple and straight forward utility that doesn't try to think for itself.
That's also my impression.
As for empty folders there are free tools out there that will scan your system and remove them.
If the Dim uninstalled the data and runtime folders it would remove the information for EVERY product with a runtime and data folder. I uninstall things sometimes because they are to old to deal with and I would not want ever single product I have installed to to lose the data and textures when I do that.
You are a better man than me Nyghtfall, I don't use DIM either and have no intention of ever starting!
The programmers have to check a folder to make sure it is empty before issuing a delete command. They are already doing it for the lower level folders. It can be done, but why? Even if the top folder is empty it will just be re-created again for the next time a product to be installed has content belonging in said top level folder (the probability of those folders being needed is extremely high). And those of us who use DIM the way it is intended will have all those folders in our Runtimes.
I'm confused. I thought Nyghtfall's gripe was that those two folders were not removed when DIM does an uninstall. If they are uninstalling a product none of the files would be empty. They would all include the content to be removed. I'm under the impression that Nyghtfall things that the level from which those files should be removed is data and runtime. If that were true then, and since there would be content in them no matter what before uninstall then then removing them would remove everything in them with the uninstall.
I appologize for coming across like a steamroller last night...
Now, a bit more on the actual issue.
I can replicate this all day long.
As long as a single item (or all the items) are being installed/uninstalled by DIM on my system (Linux with Studio and DIM running in WINE) ALL the folders are removed. There are no hidden files (desktop.ini, thumbs.db, etc) created on this system, so there are no 'extra' files. And that is the key...as long as there are no files that were not put there by DIM, it will remove ALL the folders. Anything that is there, that DIM didn't drop...the folder will stay. That is nothing new. Windows has behaved this way for a very long time.
Depends on how you code DIM. It's very easy to make it delete a folder and all its content no matter where that content comes from. Windows will only object if there are locked or protected files inside the folder.
My point is, that the DIM is just behaving like the vast majority of all the rest of the Windows installers around...if there is something in the folder that it did not put there, it won't delete the folder. Yes, you can code it to do it anyway....but that is not the behavior that is really expected in a Windows environment. And that's the reason that clean up utilities had a market in the first place.
PS: It's not new behavior nor is it exclusive to the DIM.
For the sake of argument, even if those two folders were empty, the software can check them and if they are empty remove them (something that will be highly unlikely if you use the Runtime regularly). That is all I was explaining. The whole thing is silly really. Why even bother removing them if they are empty, they will eventually be created again. All this seems like another silly conversation I got myself into, again. LOL!
Millions!
Pictures are worth a thousand words, so I've performed another experiment and taken screenshots to support my arguement for manually installing and organizing content. To those of you who prefer the DIM and are looking forward to DAZ Connect, more power to you.
I used the DIM to install the G3F Starter Essentials. They come with Basic Wear and Dark Storm clothing.
This is what the Clothing folder in the Content Library looks like:
This is that same folder in Windows Explorer:
These are some of the texture files for each set of clothing, located in the Runtime/Textures folder in Windows Explorer:
Both sets of clothing share the same data folder:
If I right-click on the Clothing folder in DS, and select Delete, this is the message I get:
That warning leads me to believe DS will also delete the associated Textures and data files. It doesn't. The only thing DS deletes are the files and sub-folders under the People/G3F/Clothing sub-folder:
If you install a content package with the DIM, and then use DS to delete parts of the package you don't want or need, you still have to open your file system and manually delete the associated Textures and data files. Otherwise, nothing happens to them.
I challenge anyone who uses DS to manage content to examine the Textures and data folders for content you've previously deleted. I'd be willing to bet all of those files are still there.
----
This is a test folder I use for examining new content before adding it to my Library. I just opened the zip file for the G3F Starter Essentials, copy/pasted the Content folder, and opened all of the relevant folders:
In less than a minute, I manually deleted every file and folder I don't need. This is what it looks like now:
All that's left is to cut/paste the Content folder to my Library.
And that's why artists like me are so dead-set against using the DIM to install and remove content, DS to manage it, and are not looking forward DAZ Connect.
As far as DIM not uninstalling the main Runtime folders that I understand. The DAZ Studio part could be a bug or a fail safe whne it comes to DIM installed content. A ticket to DAZ 3D might clarify that. But I think DIM is an issue for you.
I will continue to use DIM myself. I even create my own DIM files for content I purchase elsewhere. I like the idea of having DIM easily remove content when I need it instead of me having to hunt down the folders and files manually. I don't do that type of content maintenance thru DAZ Studio. So I'm good.
"All files and folders it contains", not "All files and folders referenced by the files it contains". Deelting referenced files and folders woul;d be very bad - one wouldn't usually want to delete a project that was going nowhere and take out al the content used in the project too.
Uninstalling via DIM certainly should delete the Data and Runtime\Textures folders from the product, as long as they have not beena dded to and as long as they didn't exist when DIM installed (that is deliberate, to ensure that uninstalling doesn't remove shared files that also belong to other products).