IRAY Photorealism?

charles · September 2024

bluejaunte said:

charles said:

bluejaunte said:

charles said:

bluejaunte said:

It's really not Iray at that point, right? Man, this whole AI thing is really turning things upside down.

It is still Iray. AI is used as a post processing touchup, that's it. How much you want to keep of your Iray original image is up to you. But I often let things like backgrounds and fingers fall through to the original Iray render, keeping just the parts of the AI that improve the features I need it to. I'll put together a better demonstration later this week.

Iray is involved, of course. But the photorealism does not come from Iray. Not in the video example you showed anyway. Iray is only used to give the absolute basics to the AI which does the heavy lifting. I'd be hesitant to call this post processing.

Absolutely nothing wrong with that. I'm just saying this has little to do with Iray. Could use any other crap renderer. Probably even Filament or a screenshot of the viewport.

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you. Your gallery shows clear signs of relying heavily on Photoshop, particularly with one-click filters. If you believe in taking things to the next level, then it seems contradictory to have a gallery dominated by Photoshop filtering.

The AI actually enhances the Iray render in ways that go beyond what Photoshop filters can achieve. And the best part is, you can still go back and add post-processing in Photoshop if you want—I do it too! This can help fix issues like bad shading, specular highlights, and other Daz-related quirks. But at the end of the day, it's your art, and it's totally up to you how you want to refine it.

In Photoshop, when you're adding filters and maybe correct the exposure or things like that, you're trying to enhance the render. AI regenerates the whole image completely. Even if you force it to stay as close to the original as possible, it still technically generates a new image. Hence, to me at least, what you're seeing after that is not Iray. It is an AI-generated image that was made from an Iray render, and you could have used any other renderer, even probably a Filament image as mentioned. It's just a matter of prompting and settings.

An equivalent could be photoshopping a face from a real photo onto your render. Nobody would call this post processing. But it doesn't matter much, nobody cares in the end what was used as long as it looks good. But this is a thread about Iray photorealism so I feel it's at least worth pointing out that we are leaving that realm once AI image generation is involved.

It's still interesting though! Please don't take this the wrong way and by all means continue to show your results :)

I agree, in the end it's all about the results. I have been using Daz for a very long time now, and struggled with getting results to look as realistic as possible. So for me, I see this as a means to an end.

Masterstroke · November 2024

I wanted to much
3 houres of rendering and not even 1% finished.
I just put too much stuff in this scene for inside and outside and now my 3060 12gb GPU is obviously at its limit.
Ghostlights don't help reducing render times, I've tried it.
But hey, it gives you an idea.

lilweep · November 2024

i dont think that scene shouldnt take more than 12GB vram. What is in the render frame looks like a fairly simple amount of geometry and textures, so i assume what is taking up vram is out of frame.

As to whether it is photoreal, I think it looks good because the assets are good quality, which is half the battle. I dont think this detracts from realism much, but i think the glossiness on the couch/sofa is perhaps too much for standard fabrics that you would expect for such furniture.

n.aspros123 · June 30

Got a Genesis 8 Male character. The skin looks a little flat and pale when spotlight/s are used. I've been fiddling with the skin's surfaces to get it to be life like.

By default, the skin comes with Translucency Weight Off. I've turned it on to a low level of 0.020. I've seen in some other characters that Scatter and Transmit is on. When it's on, White is seen. SSS Texture is Off as well. Should I persevere with it or just use Scatter?

Be good if there was a Skin Builder for Genesis 8/8.1 instead of just for G8 Females.

UncannyValet · June 30

n.aspros123 said:

Got a Genesis 8 Male character. The skin looks a little flat and pale when spotlight/s are used. I've been fiddling with the skin's surfaces to get it to be life like.

Overall, it sounds like it would be easier to use a different skin shader setup (and then plug in new maps) than try to tweak all the variables on this preset shader set up which seems like it might be far away from where it needs to be

By default, the skin comes with Translucency Weight Off. I've turned it on to a low level of 0.020. I've seen in some other characters that Scatter and Transmit is on. When it's on, White is seen.

I don't think you mentioned which shader you are using? If you are using Iray Uber or PBRSkin, I think the transluceny weight should be quite high, e.g., at least 0.85 for most skin tones.

SSS Texture is Off as well.

I assume by SSS Texture you are refering to Translucency Color map. By 'Off' do you mean you don't have a corresponding map for this channel?

If so, you can use the Base Color map for Translucency Color. (Isadorekeegan used the base color for Translucency Color in their shader set up: https://www.deviantart.com/dfggcxbbb/art/Proper-Subsurface-Scatter-Shading-For-Human-Skin-845149749)

Should I persevere with it or just use Scatter?

If you cannot get desired results, i suppose you should use the one that gives you the results you like.

Be good if there was a Skin Builder for Genesis 8/8.1 instead of just for G8 Females.

In Daz, you can copy surfaces from different figures, so if you like settings on something you made with Skin Builder on G8 Female, you can copy/paste that Surface to G8 male and then swap out the texture maps.

Masterstroke · July 1

I have been quite successful with the Altern8 skin shader system.
https://www.daz3d.com/altern8--skin-shader-system-for-genesis-8
Choose your maps and apply the "No Maps" materials from the library to them.

ThatOmin · July 5

lilweep said:

i dont think that scene shouldnt take more than 12GB vram. What is in the render frame looks like a fairly simple amount of geometry and textures, so i assume what is taking up vram is out of frame.

As to whether it is photoreal, I think it looks good because the assets are good quality, which is half the battle. I dont think this detracts from realism much, but i think the glossiness on the couch/sofa is perhaps too much for standard fabrics that you would expect for such furniture.

Could be an extremely high-res image and/or many of those textures could be 4k+.

Masterstroke · July 6

ThatOmin said:

lilweep said:

so i assume what is taking up vram is out of frame.

Could be an extremely high-res image and/or many of those textures could be 4k+.

yes
and
yes

Snow · July 7

It is possible to achieve realism in DAZ iRay but it takes a tremendous amount of time and effort.

This image https://www.daz3d.com/gallery/user/5392988800811008#gallery=newest&page=1&image=1311923 was my best try at realism and even then people might still find issues. This was out of the box so no Ai or Post Processing. This was still G8 so it would probably be a lot easier nowadays with G9 but since I haven't worked in 3d for quite some time now others can chime in on that.

With Ai img2img it's not that difficult to achieve realism from your renders or even screenshots like Bluejaunte mentioned and it's a completely new image created by another artist based on your work.
Now would I still spend days achieving that kind of realism in DAZ, especially using an intel Mac with AMD GPU? HELL NO!

So I can understand both arguments from Charles and Bluejeaunte.

I've mentioned this in the Ai section of this forum. If Daz desperately wanted to get involved with Ai as well they should have implemented an Ai img2img workflow at render stage. No prompts, just a revolutionary new render engine, replacing iRay, that renders out the image as a 3d render, realistic photograph, cartoon or sketch, whatever!. Later on they could have expanded into adding postprocessing techniques like effects, different backgrounds, etc...

So rendering in seconds instead of minutes or hours with much better quality. Now imagine the same process for animation.

i53570k · August 9

Can anyone confirm something I read regarding the discussion on "Spectral Conversion Color Space" starting on page 61 of this thread?

What I think I learned was that any choice other than Rec.709 will result in over reddish skins. I got the same differet skin color shots as seen from Masterstroke's examples on that page. I have little to none knowledge of color theory and my understanding is that Rec.709 is SDR while Rec.2020 is HDR. To get rid of the red skins, the texture maps need to be HDR if we want to render in Rec2020 in Spectral Rendering, which Uber and PBR skins are not. Is this correct?

Will the upcoming OmniSkin be HDR?

rosseliani · August 9

This is Iray only, with Tone Mapping Settings.

Model is Lil'Bee by SdeBStore

Hair is Lucie Hair by Rosseliani, with a free Mat Preset adding a Normal map to simulate hair waves.

Does it look photoreal?

prixat · August 9

i53570k said:

What I think I learned was that any choice other than Rec.709 will result in over reddish skins. I got the same differet skin color shots as seen from Masterstroke's examples on that page. I have little to none knowledge of color theory and my understanding is that Rec.709 is SDR while Rec.2020 is HDR. To get rid of the red skins, the texture maps need to be HDR if we want to render in Rec2020 in Spectral Rendering, which Uber and PBR skins are not. Is this correct?

That's generally correct. You definitely have to change lighting and Environment when switching to Aces. You don't always have to change the surface settings. There are quick fixes or more indepth fixes for the reddening you sometimes get. If you can share an example we can step through the fixes?

i53570k · August 10

prixat said:

i53570k said:

What I think I learned was that any choice other than Rec.709 will result in over reddish skins. I got the same differet skin color shots as seen from Masterstroke's examples on that page. I have little to none knowledge of color theory and my understanding is that Rec.709 is SDR while Rec.2020 is HDR. To get rid of the red skins, the texture maps need to be HDR if we want to render in Rec2020 in Spectral Rendering, which Uber and PBR skins are not. Is this correct?

That's generally correct. You definitely have to change lighting and Environment when switching to Aces. You don't always have to change the surface settings. There are quick fixes or more indepth fixes for the reddening you sometimes get. If you can share an example we can step through the fixes?

Thank you. The additonal redness I saw on mine are exactly the same as what Masterstroke posted on pg61 here. Now I know the reason I am going to stay with Rec.709. Having to adjust color mapping for every render is not a learning curve I want to climb at the moment. I will dive in if Daz adds HDR skins in the future.

prixat · August 10

The quick fix is trivial ...

The attached is basic G8.1 before and after Acescg

prixat · August 10

Change the Tonemapping - Whitepoint...

The colour I'm choosing is, "The amount of Redness I want removed!"

Experiment with this, I like to leave a bit of redness...

prixat · August 10

from left to right, No Acescg, Acescg with fix, Acescg without fix.

charles · September 24

how far we have come.. been out of the loop here for over a year working on getting things done...this starts as Daz and then gets this. This is just one part of the whole process, a base set for Lora training. train it for Flux-Dev use with Flux-Krea and WOW the results are amazing.

I'm still finalizing my github ComfyUI nodes and will link them when finally published.

ComfyFacePop2.01

ComfyChucksFlux

and

Comfy Nano Banana Lora Trainer

The goal here is to use img2img on ones Iray Daz renders as post work. You can use the loras for stand alone txt to img, but that is not my goal with this.

charles · September 24

prixat said:

from left to right, No Acescg, Acescg with fix, Acescg without fix.

keep in mind lighting and "type" of lighting is a big influence on the materials and results. Try good true HDR as well as sky light (which is an HDR I believe) as well as spot lights or distant lights and compare those as well.

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