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Whats it gonna take?

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  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 108,062

    DrunkMonkeyProductions said:

    namffuak said:

     And then came Studio 4 -with its own formats and more rational file structure.

    Didn't get into the game until version 3, but IIRC, the file formats studio used natively didn't change from 3 to 4.

    Genesis was using the same DSO, DSV, DAZ, etc. files that studio used in Version 3.

    It was 4.5 that changed things, for the better IMHO, with the advent of DSON.

    4.5 was the first General release though - the earlier were all public builds (betas), though they did use DSON (originally all files were .dsf, I think .duf came at 4.5 or thereabouts)

    I still wouldn't call it "more rational" but definitely simplified, especially compared to poser's 10+ file formats.

    Though, Studio has been moving back towards a massive number of file formats, some useful, some, not so much.

    User files are still .duf even if they can serve different purposes, and back-end asets are .dsf or .dhdm for HD morphs).

  • DrunkMonkeyProductionsDrunkMonkeyProductions Posts: 1,152

    Richard Haseltine said:

    DrunkMonkeyProductions said:

    namffuak said:

     And then came Studio 4 -with its own formats and more rational file structure.

    Didn't get into the game until version 3, but IIRC, the file formats studio used natively didn't change from 3 to 4.

    Genesis was using the same DSO, DSV, DAZ, etc. files that studio used in Version 3.

    It was 4.5 that changed things, for the better IMHO, with the advent of DSON.

    4.5 was the first General release though - the earlier were all public builds (betas), though they did use DSON (originally all files were .dsf, I think .duf came at 4.5 or thereabouts)

    So we were playing with a beta from 4.0 to 4.5?

    I don't recall(and i'm not going into my cold storage to find it) any of those versions ever saying they were betas.

     

    I will eat crow on the file formats and DSON.

     

     

    I still wouldn't call it "more rational" but definitely simplified, especially compared to poser's 10+ file formats.

    Though, Studio has been moving back towards a massive number of file formats, some useful, some, not so much.

    User files are still .duf even if they can serve different purposes, and back-end asets are .dsf or .dhdm for HD morphs).

     Bit of an exageration on my part, but we've gone from 4, not counting scripts files, to 1(DSF) to 2(DSF and DUF), and now we're 5+.

    DSF, DHDM(introduced in 4.6), DUF, DJL(4.9(?)), and DSJ(though i don't think i've ever seen this one).

    And then we have/had the Connect encrypted versions.

    I didn't ever get caught up in that debacle, so i have no idea if it uses/used different file extensions or not.

     

     

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 108,062

    .dsf and .duf are essentialy the same, as  far as I know - the differnt extenions just help to distnguish their function. .djl is just a link, not a content file itself (though it is a file that causes an entry to display in the content panes, of course).

  • Ghost_TrainGhost_Train Posts: 61
    edited May 24

    wolf359 said:

     

    Poser is so unique and powerful as an animation tool. In ways industry standard 3d software is not. 
     

     

    Can you give some examples of this?
    and for reference I was a “Professional poser animator” since Poser 4.

    My IMDB film credit is for a
    simulated video gameplay sequence ,made with Poser 6,
    that I was commissioned for an indie film
     

     


    Posers graph editor and Dope sheet are extremely primitive requiring you to open multiple instances of graph editor to see more then one channel at time.

    Daz studio has a more modern graph editor inline with industry standards
    And any BVH Mocap source used in poser has to have the exact same skeleton as the poser figure you are using.
    Although the Daz Animate2 system has some limitations with the latest figures it is still far an away superior to posers animation layers tool .

    And we have a means to use the entiire MIxamo Libraries with Daz genesis figures

     


    Check  out @Dartanbeck works with Daz studio and Animate2
     

     


      

    Too many to list but for a while quite a lot fo the animation we did at Rooster Teeth was in Poser.  Unfortunately the guy who lead that passed away and I was axed as they went to Maya.  But it was awesome for a time.

    Me and one other guy did this in Poser (along with the other trailers Red, White, Yellow).  The whole show was Poser for RWBY Vol 1-3 was Poser
    https://youtu.be/ImKCt7BD4U4

    Red vs Blue was Poser for all animated battles from Season 7-9 (partially 10 in collaboration with Maya))
    https://youtu.be/DlLlXyzEr14

    I wouldn't call it "professional" but I did Mega Man X Fanimation in Poser.  It was my first big project while learning it.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F991RSOU00Y

    (sorry not sure how to post youtube vids on here)

    Not to mention his solo work on Dead Fantasy was great

    I did most of the previs and action design upfront for this in Poser.   It was converted and finished in Blender.  We had a Poser to Blender workflow but it was a lot of extra work so we don't do that anymore. (mainly from 1:39 till end of the final battle)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuBoEIW-hDs

    Post edited by Ghost_Train on
  • wolf359wolf359 Posts: 3,931
    edited May 24

    I have seen all of those years ago.

    I suppose I should have clarified that I meant examples of how poser is 

     

    "so unique and powerful as an animation tool in ways industry standard 3D software is not.”

     

    Those animations you showed, have terrible foot sliding which is why so many of the shots are framed above the knees with very rapid camera cuts whenever the feet are shown.
    While the RWBY stuff is "well done"  (for poser animation)indecision
    it is no where close to what cna  be done in Reallusion Iclone or 
    “industry standard 3D software “ such Max or Maya or even Blender.
    particularly with Foot contact IK animation and motion retargeting from various sources

    That said Poser still has one of the best Ragdoll physics simulation engines 
    (once you install the free open source pose physics python plugin.)

    I used  Poser 12 to create these animations
    that I retargeted to G9 using the Reallusion software.

    Post edited by wolf359 on
  • Ghost_TrainGhost_Train Posts: 61

    Ron Knights said:

    I do believe there was a huge discussion about the possibility of Poser using "copy protection."

    Poser would "phone home," and check your license credentials. Many people didn't like that feature.

    Ironically, I do believe Poser currently "phones home."

    The makers or owners of Poser never offered much content. DAZ was always the major provider. 

    That's one huge reason I haven't bought Poser for many years.

    yea they did switch to that and I personaly hate it.  Several times I finally get around to working on something but its when i have no internet access.  "Welp..guess Im not getting anything done today"

  • Ghost_TrainGhost_Train Posts: 61
    edited May 25

    wolf359 said:

    I have seen all of those years ago.

    I suppose I should have clarified that I meant examples of how poser is 

     

    "so unique and powerful as an animation tool in ways industry standard 3D software is not.”

     

    Those animations you showed, have terrible foot sliding which is why so many of the shots are framed above the knees with very rapid camera cuts whenever the feet are shown.
    While the RWBY stuff is "well done"  (for poser animation)indecision
    it is no where close to what cna  be done in Reallusion Iclone or 
    “industry standard 3D software “ such Max or Maya or even Blender.
    particularly with Foot contact IK animation and motion retargeting from various sources

    I heard iClone is good but i'll probably never touch it due to that high price. 
    Maybe i'll be alone on this hill unless I can come up with something good down the road.  Poser is amazing it comes to mocap editing though.  Esp if you have access to OptiTrack...but that's like $20,000 more than most people can afford.  I was using AxisNeuron suits for a while but they are so fragile and break easy.  Its just nice ot be able to import the data right onto the character and start editing. no transfer rigs or retargetting.  but rarely use any mocap as is.  Still takes a lot of manual work.  But the fast efficient workflow comes with practice and learning the hotkeys. And this is not something you can do very well if using a Mac.  I also really like how "hackable" things are.  and being able to animate fx on cards and custom geometry sequences with a single dial.  Its possible to do that in other software too but not an easy setup.  I'm not going to convince anyone by talking about it though.  I guess if I can ever manage to get around to making something cool then maybe someone will wonder. but till then, :should shug.gif:
     

    Post edited by Ghost_Train on
  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 108,062

    This seems to be getting side-tracked. If the thread is not about Daz Studio and Poser being more compatible or interoperable but is about content or becomes a discussion of other applications then it should be in a non-application specific forum (e.g. the Commons, Art Studio or Technical Help).

  • Ghost_TrainGhost_Train Posts: 61
    edited May 25

    Richard Haseltine said:

    This seems to be getting side-tracked. If the thread is not about Daz Studio and Poser being more compatible or interoperable but is about content or becomes a discussion of other applications then it should be in a non-application specific forum (e.g. the Commons, Art Studio or Technical Help).

    This isn't the first time you said something.   I think its all related but feel free to close it if you want it gone.  Do what you must.  Ive learned some things from all of this so I appreciate the talks.. 


    ...or is it possible to move the whole thread?

    Post edited by Ghost_Train on
  • LeanaLeana Posts: 12,758

    Richard is not saying that the discussion should not continue but that it should be discussed in a more general sub forum.

    And yes, it is possible to move the whole thread: if you edit the first post you can change the sub forum.

  • Ghost_TrainGhost_Train Posts: 61
    edited May 25

    Leana said:

    Richard is not saying that the discussion should not continue but that it should be discussed in a more general sub forum.

    And yes, it is possible to move the whole thread: if you edit the first post you can change the sub forum.

    Ahhh ok.  MIsunderstood.  Moved to The Commons unless there's a better one. didn't know I could do that

    Post edited by Ghost_Train on
  • Ghost_TrainGhost_Train Posts: 61

    Richard Haseltine said:

    This seems to be getting side-tracked. If the thread is not about Daz Studio and Poser being more compatible or interoperable but is about content or becomes a discussion of other applications then it should be in a non-application specific forum (e.g. the Commons, Art Studio or Technical Help).

    Sorry totally miss understood what you meant.  Plz forgiv crying

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 108,062

    Ghost_Train said:

    Richard Haseltine said:

    This seems to be getting side-tracked. If the thread is not about Daz Studio and Poser being more compatible or interoperable but is about content or becomes a discussion of other applications then it should be in a non-application specific forum (e.g. the Commons, Art Studio or Technical Help).

    Sorry totally miss understood what you meant.  Plz forgiv crying

    Thank you, I would have moved it myself but I wanted to be sure I understood your intent.

  • xyer0xyer0 Posts: 6,333

    namffuak said:

    Yes - poser 5 was a train wreck - details here. By that time the original Zygote "Digital Art Zone" had been spun off as DAZ 3D and DAZ was making a comfortable income creatiing Poser content and serving as a market for other content creators. There was genuine fear that Poser would die off, so DAZ started their own Poser competitive product. Studio was focused on Poser content and formats right up through version 3. And then came Studio 4 -with its own formats and more rational file structure. As I understand it (and I may well be wrong) DAZ offered information and options for Poser to treat the new formats natively. The then-current owners of Poser declined, due to a mix of cost and "not invented here". They did include some 'hooks' that allowed DAZ to build the DSON importer, but that has gone away now.

    Thanks for the link. I never knew the Poser 5 story. Kinda feels like Daz took a page out of Curious Labs' customer relations manual. 

  • TorquinoxTorquinox Posts: 4,255
    edited May 26

    xyer0 said:

    Thanks for the link. I never knew the Poser 5 story. Kinda feels like Daz took a page out of Curious Labs' customer relations manual. 

     There are oddly familiar patterns in the Curious Labs story, yes. >_> +1 for you! @namffuak thanks for the history lesson.

    Post edited by Torquinox on
  • vrba79vrba79 Posts: 1,432

    It would really only benfit one party: Poser.

    On Daz's end it would be a lot of work, for...what exactly? What do they get out of it?

  • richardandtracyrichardandtracy Posts: 7,132

    Torquinox said:

    xyer0 said:

    Thanks for the link. I never knew the Poser 5 story. Kinda feels like Daz took a page out of Curious Labs' customer relations manual. 

     There are oddly familiar patterns in the Curious Labs story, yes. >_> +1 for you! @namffuak thanks for the history lesson.

    Thanks for the link @namffuak , appreciated. At the time I'd saved up all my discretionary income for Poser 4 for 6 months and P5 came out only a few months later, with no reduced price upgrade path. This disgruntled me hugely, and I started saving again. Then I got wind of the bug issues with P5 and decided it wasn't something I could be bothered with if it was that bad. Having paid what I considered a lot for a program, I at least wanted it to be finished, and so continued with P4. Finally I heard of a FREE beta program from the company that had been Zygote. Given that my wife & I were still broke (3 mortgages, 1 income & 2 kids), I went for that. After playing a little with it and learning from LiquidRust before they became a PA, I saw it was possible to get better results from the DS0.7beta than P4, so I dropped Poser entirely and haven't gone back. 

    Animation is one field that I have always found hard - the interpolation from one keyframe to the next never seems intuitive to me and the need to render so many images... Given the speed of most of my PC's, it's not something I'm likely to proceed with any great enthusiasm.

    Regards,

    Richard

     

     

  • namffuaknamffuak Posts: 4,409

    vrba79 said:

    It would really only benfit one party: Poser.

    On Daz's end it would be a lot of work, for...what exactly? What do they get out of it?

    The thing is, Daz can't do the work. To use current (G3, G8, G9) characters in Poser would require major changes in Poser. Otherwise, you end up going down the rabbit hole Hivewire tried - the same character, with the same appearance, but two different meshes. I don't know if they managed to get the outfits put together such that the same outfit worked on both the Poser and Studio versions of the character.

  • LeanaLeana Posts: 12,758
    edited May 27

    namffuak said:

    Otherwise, you end up going down the rabbit hole Hivewire tried - the same character, with the same appearance, but two different meshes. I don't know if they managed to get the outfits put together  such that the same outfit worked on both the Poser and Studio versions of the character.

    Not two different meshes, two figures based on the same mesh: one rigged for Poser (with their version of weightmapping) in Poser format, and one rigged for DS (using TriAx rigging) in DS format.
    And yes, morphs and add-ons also need to be provided in both formats if you want to use them to work with both figures. And obviously materials would need a version for each render engine if you want something usable directly in both programs.
    Though I suppose with DSON importer plugin you could use the DS version in Poser up to a point, and in the case of clothes, if you load the Poser version in DS and ignore all warnings linked to poser weight maps, you can use autofit/transfer utility to rig them automatically so they sorta work in DS too (with the limitations of automatic rigging, and I'm not sure the morphs made for the poser version still work).

    Post edited by Leana on
  • wolf359wolf359 Posts: 3,931
    edited May 27

    IIRC there were changes made to Poser in version 11 to take full advantage of some features of the Lafemme figure.

     

    It would really only benefit one party: Poser.

    That is why you always see Poser users asking Daz to shift its business model to accommodate Poser users 
    instead of them asking the company that actually owns Poser (Bondware ATM),to update the program with high quality character models and  features that make it more attractive to content creators.

    Post edited by wolf359 on
  • namffuaknamffuak Posts: 4,409

    @Leana - thanks for the correction.

     

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