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No one has expressed why it is impractical to return to providing Ethnic Morph packs like prior generations had.(i guess they didn't sell? No one wants to make it? WOuld impact sales of the "black guy" daz has planned for 2 years from now?)
No one has said why they can't provide some textures that are G3F compatible that aren't run-of-the-mill white girls. No one explained why V7 couldn't have a darker gal in the mix (other than Richard saying "cause PA's"), or Eva or the next gal out the door.
I don't pretend to work for Daz. I have enough real world business experience to know I am an outsider. It is the responsiblity of Daz and their partners to find viable business solutions.
Unless you are prepared to give me metrics, you should be well aware I can't give you a complete solution. We both know you can not, so there is no point it pushing me to find a resolution that only you and your partners can find.
If you have no clue what people mean with expressions like "Common American" I seriously doubt you have the knowledge to facilitate the change. If you walked around Atlanta, Georgia for a few hours you would be amazed by how the diverse "black" people of African decent are(modern day common Americans that aren't African or have any ties to that continent, not Voodoo doctors etc, but have a diverse and rich feature set that could be recreated in characters or clothes). Or many other cities in the US. I know many Daz artists are not American. But Daz still is an American company right? Not everyone involved can plead ignorance, unless Drapper is completely removed from the rest of the country.
Well okay... guess there's not a lot else to say on the matter then.
Peace and goodluck :)
I can assure you this will come up every release until we are appeased :) But again I know us forum people are dense, we think people read what we type. So we keep doing it. I already know that next months figure is too far in the pipe, but maybe in September we can get a bone at least.
(and some will never be appeased but that is part of life.)
It might sound weird, but I think I like Marie because she's a little more generic than Monique or other black textures. She doesn't have extremely light palms and soles or really defined lips; she's a more general-use texture that works very well for the character I use her on (although I have edited my copy slightly). That's why it's important to remember when Lars said in another thread - that it's not just a matter of getting a single ethnic texture, we need to get several because one doesn't suit all needs.
" WOuld impact sales of the "black guy" daz has planned for 2 years from now?) "
Yep. We haven't had an official ethnic morph set since DAZ went with their monthly character releases.
They all are a flavour of the base figure. They are ALL EQUAL in that. Vicky, Darius, Lee, and all the other characters that are there... They are just morphs of the same base. Darius 6 is nor a morph of Michael 6, he is a morph of G2M.
Also, I find it kind of annoying that it's assumed that Europeans are all "white", and hence would preferably buy "white" characters to show in their scene. That's like saying Germans run around in Lederhosn or Dirndl, and eat Sauerkraut all the time.
What kind of characters (or clothes) one buys, or not, is personal choice and preference.
More diversity in the characters is good, but I doubt you will get it by showing the kind of agressive posts towards the people that create content, like what I have seen here in this thread coming from some.
I am pretty sure we have been saying this for years. So if people seem agressive it's because it hasn't gotten better, some would argue it has gotten worse.
Again the major issue with the new generation is you can't even fall back on what you aquired in prior generations.
And no one said all Europeans were "white" or any craziness like that. But denying statistics and buying habits helps no one. I mean we could seriously waste time with a debate on if we should call anyone "white" but it's a sidebar from the core issue. And I don't think anyone can say there isn't an abundance of caucasian skins for G3F already.
Since this has been refered to twice: I didn't say "cause PAs" (and I certainly hope I didn't put an apostrophe in PAs). It was suggested that DAZ could, on the bundles, take a risk on lower sales for one or more ethnic minority characters as the sales would presumably balance out. I pointed that ebfore DAZ can buy an item a PA has to make it, not knowing whether it will be bought out by DAZ or not; if the item wasn't bought out the PA would be left with all, or a substantial part, of that month's new releases being an item with a risk of low returns. So the odds are, by what we have been told about relative sales, that PAs will be wary about committing the time to make an ethnic minority character long before it gets to the point of DAZ' deciding to buy the product out and use to increase the range in the bundle.
Hmm. This is feeling like a bit of a vicious circle. So this means that Benjamin in the M5 bundle was quite explicitly a coincidence as opposed to anything deliberate?
No, some PAs may choose to take a risk on something they expect not to sell as well. But it means I would expect fewer opportunities for DAZ to buy an ethnic minority character for a bundle compared to buying caucasians, quite possibly no chances sometimes.
He might have been specifically commisionned by DAZ, but IMO it's more likely they were just lucky that a PA created that character at the right time for them to buy it and include it in the bundle.
Thanks for explaining. I didn't realize Daz didn't even attempt to commission art for sale and exclusively waited for PA submissions. That doesn't seem to completely add up because I'm sure V7 was no accident :)
Still goes back to my point. It's a bad excuse. Daz has far more control and influence then they want to let on. But is sure is nice to pass the buck.
I can assure you they wouldn't accidentally have two brown people in there. They would say something then and exert their influence.
(The forum mis-attributed this quote and I don't know how to fix it :( --Richard Haseltine wrote this)
This is a part of the business I don't know anything about. I thought PAs sold their products on a commission basis, much like a musican selling songs on iTunes. But it sounds like DAZ buys rights to certain products for the bundles. It does seem that the focus on sterotyped or even racist content (the "voodoo" stuff is really bad) creates a chicken-and-egg problem. People interested in non-white characters see something that looks nothing like they're going to use and don't bother to get involved with DAZ or Poser-style art at all. But if they buy a Darius or Monique, it reinforces the idea that these "ethnic" bundles sell.
Like SnowSultan, I'm sitting out Gen3 until there are more options, even though I'm very excited about the improvments to the base figures. I'll probably start using it around the time the Luis7 pro bundle comes out with both a footballer and football manager uniforms (pro tip: Luis Enrique). Or maybe the Jorge bundle with musican and intellectual outfits. Because, amazing!
Cowboys? Overweight hillbillies with long beards in hunting gear? Devious evil businessmen from Wall Street? Blond American newscasters with annoyed looks on their faces?
larsmidnatt said
The Genesis technology and the main figures are DAZ 3Ds Intellectual Property and done in house. It is subsequent characters that may be purchased from PAs
I'll just say we are all artists (of some form or another) and we can solve our own problems without demanding DAZ do it for us. If it bother you that Lee is depicted doing martial arts, then use a different character from your stable for that purpose. Nobody is stopping you. Putting a voodoo'ish outfit on a white guy might be jarring but isn't that what art is about?
Does DAZ purchase the PA characters, license them, or just sell them on comission? I.e., if I made my Luis7 figure, would I have to cross my fingers and hope DAZ would buy it, or could I sell it through DAZ on a comission basis? (I know there are alternative channels to sell content for DAZ figures, but I'm asking specificly about the DAZ store.)
while what you are saying is correct, it doesn't address the problem some see. Which is how people are depicted. Some customers are saying, "I don't like that but I want to buy stuff from you, so please reconsider."
while what you are saying is correct, it doesn't address the problem some see. Which is how people are depicted. Some customers are saying, "I don't like that but I want to buy stuff from you, so please reconsider."
There are 2 kind of items in the store: DAZ Originals, which are items either created in-house by DAZ or created by a PA who sold it to DAZ, and PA items, which are owned by the PA and sold in the DAZ store in exchange for a cut on the price.
Most items in the store are PA items. DAZ still has to accept to sell them, of course, they don't take everything that is submitted to them.
I think DAZ need to stop thinking of black people and Chinese people as 'ethnic minorities'. They are certainly not. The world is far larger than the US. They might even expand their market if they start thinking differently.
SnowSultan: I have skin builder, which helps a little, and skin overlay for adding stuff. Very fond of both (yay Zev0!)
I might pick up Elite Marie at some point. Though it says it needs V4 Elite body shapes... does it really?
Oddly, I just noticed, trying to make a nordic male character, that I don't have a very good 'pale European male' skin texture. I ended up having to use Macro Skin (for f) because it was the only female texture I had where the eyebrows didn't look weird on a guy.
Elite Marie SHAPE needs V4 Elite, but the textures work for any figure that supports V4 UV's.
That's what baffles me. I live in America. And I can tell you that most places here have more than .001% black people *chuckles*. The national average is about 14% last I checked. Higher % yet goes to the Hispanic/Latino population. I live in a big city with lots of people of color, pretty much always have.
The CG pinup crowd obviously has their bias regarding clothing and how the female figure is sculpted and their ethnicity. But I thought Daz was trying to become more utilized in other markets(that do more than pinup art)? Or was that only Daz Studio with no content? Cause that seems counter productive. Daz Studio is still free...so not sure how they would profit from that.
For the record I primarly do pinup art with my Daz Dollies. So I am not knocking the hobby or career.
Ah, good, that'll save me money. Not interested in the shape.
Pretty sure I can use V4 on my Genesis 2 models.
Definately for G1, and if you bought the V4 shape/UV product(s) for G2F you should be golden.
Probably it will be translated in a long line of white girls/boys. If the store have US/Europe majority then PAs will need think in this tabú-wall before create any stuff. I can't blame a PA deciding produce only non-ethnical sure stuff.
Some Americans would argue argue "black" American's aren't all that ethnic(there is a huge variety, but many are obviously dozens of generations out of Africa, lots of blending going on. Not so ethnic. But fairly common...just not white.). Like I said, not all "black" folk are sub-sahara or voodoo folk.
Could we get a Haley Berry/Vanessa Williams type hold over character
(no need to be flagship figure with pro pack)
I know someone would say "they aren't dark enough" but I could work with that.
Out of curiousity what is the ethnic diversity breakdown of the daz content buyer?
They probably could only speculate based on website metrics and working with a third party that takes user data(such as billing addresses and ip addresses) to work out segments. Probably not worth their time or money, but there are business that do that stuff :) That way they could guestimate the age of users, ethnicities and income levels. Then they could model out which demographics buy what. However for Daz that would be a waste as they are purely ecommerce, so using regular web metrics that don't try to evaluate that other data is most effective. (if you were mailing catalogs that other info may be helpful, or if you had retail stores etc)
So instead of who is "white" or "black", it's who visits the site with what frequency, who bought Stephanie 5, who hasn't purchased this month etc. So regardless of the ethnicity or nationality of the buyer, if they aren't buying brown people or they only buy one brown person per year that may be what they are looking at. If they even care that much. They could just do it the simple way, we sold X many of this, let's do that again. But since they do offer targeted email promotions to certain segments as well as on-site marketing to certain targets, we do know they have some systems in place.
It's just colorblind data. Which is perfectly fine. I don't want to fill out a survey and be pigeon holed into an arbitrary "race" descriptor.
I'm a white gay male living in California, US. But I like darker skin and work with ta da.. male figures more than females.
If I'm doing a god / goddess or hero image then I'm using both sexes where needed.
Well, truthfully, my preferred characters aren't real. I've been through various stages of love from Koshini to Nursoda.So, for them, the whole question is moot. Oh, for diversity I might mix Loik with Torf or Brulba with Mavka. As for humans I do Americans and they can be pretty much anything and the melting pot is such that even the stereotypes of white people are false. I'd rather see two different ethnic types married, than worry about bean counting.