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Well, with martial arts, it ignores the fact that 1) there are MANY martial arts that aren't Asian at all, and 2) Asian people do things other than martial arts. Shocker, I know.
Heck, how about some monks or priests? Magicians, swordsmen...
Only a third lol :)
I wasn't saying anyone was hating, I was just hoping that we can skip the usual ending a thread like this sinks down to. Which is why I phrased it "Let's not start..."
I saw this game and thought I was scrolling through DAZ store ................
seriously though a game try on interface like this for store would be sooooooo cool
Design Anvil writes:
"Here is a challenge for you if you would like to play,
Name a typical profession/pursuit/hobby or style of dress for any specific racial group without alluding to a stereotype?
Name a colour that young boys/girls typically like? Remember no stereotypes.
Name something that is common for young people to say they would love to be when they grownup?
What is a non stereotypical clown?'
I am black and an American and a reseacher (scientist specializing in protein purification) ; I'm not sure we have a lot of specific racial group clothing here in America... here in the SF Bay Area, women sometimes even wear pants. My young nephew and I like purple... and I'm sure there are tons of kids who want to be actors, lawyers, entertainers, artists, and any profession covered by the garments in the DAZ3D store (I don't want to be an astronaut; I've met an astronaut and it all seems uncomfortable). An example is a US president, no matter if it is President Bush or President Obama, they both wear suits. I have to confess I have never wanted to be a doctor of Voodoo and I'm pretty sure they don't dress that way.
With respect, I think you may have missed the point slightly.
Lets say Darius 7 is ready for PA's to start making content for. What items would you like to see them work on to complement him?
It should be something that complements the specific figure, so things that are generic of nature like say general t shirts or slacks are not really what is ideal to complement a figure launch. Or would you prefer to see D7 released with no complementary content at all, as anything that can be associated is in a reality a stereotype by the very association it has to the figure.
What you missed in the questions was the word typical, typical isn't asking what you or your nephew prefer, as interesting as that is, it's asking what do you think most or the majority would prefer or like. Do you think most would answer purple for colour?
The same with "something a young person would like to be when they grow up" what is inferred is that there is no singular correct answer to the question. The answer "Lots of different things", isn't something it's anything/everything. As a product designer it's very hard to make anything as a product, it needs to be defined as something and generally something that is associated to the base. But that by very nature can make it a stereotype, unless it is totally unrelated and therefore possibly irrelevant to the base. So it's almost a paradox to make something for X that is unrelated to X. It can't be for it and yet not related to it at the same time.
But never mind me ;)
So what properly compliments a launch of two dark-skinned characters is a two-fold barrage of voodoo products? I'm white and I found that ridiculous; imagine what a professional black man like Nemesis must have thought.
No one is saying the products are bad or that those products shouldn't be made. They just need to be spaced out among other things that aren't so obviously stereotypical.
Never Mind
Okay, SnowSultan fair enough, thats your point of view and your totally entitled to it. Any idea's for Darius 7 products?
"Any idea's for Darius 7 products?"
Sure, but they would be things that would work with any character, so you wouldn't call them "Darius 7 products". Maybe a construction worker, a waiter, hospital outfits (have we had any of those since the M4 scrubs?), both revealing and protective fantasy wear, an old grandpa-y character, etc. Release a couple of those at the same time as the voodoo or other stereotypical stuff and I doubt there would be much complaining.
How about Darius 7 be an an astronaut, an Indiana Jones adventurer type, a fireman or policeman (my dad was a detective).. If you need ethnic types (it still isn't clear to me why Darius needs some pseudo-exotic outfits when Micheal can be surfer or a barbarian), how bout something along the lines of Timbuktu or African explorer... (quickly google "columbusing"). There is a launch of a very fair character today called Eve who doesn't have a single garment that wouldn't apply to Monique equally. Why is she devoid of these crude ethnic signifiers?
Thanks for the feedback, it is interesting to hear what you guys would like to see for Darius 7.
My only concern with both of your responses is. it seems these are all generic type products your suggesting, and it even comes across as if your saying that PA's shouldn't provide Darius 7 specific product support at all?
As what he needs is what is already available as a generic base outfit like Astronaut suits, Indiana Jones type suits, Hospital wear etc and really anything historical or relating to African culture in general is taking a big risk of being deemed offensive. I also as a vendor can't count on what else will be made for the figure, what if I think well what's one Darius 7 King of the Jungle pose set as long as everyone else makes sweaters and hard hats for him it will be okay. But if everyone else makes something along similar lines, I'm at a dead end with the product and the release could be a disaster. It seems clearly better to not risk it at all tbh. And worst still, if I make something that I see as generic but is a cultural Faux Pas that I am unaware of I may actually inadvertently cause some level of offense.
I have to admit though nemesis10 it does a feel a little one sided for example a voodoo priest is considered as exotic borderline offensive, yet a white barbarian is not? Isn't making Michael 6 as a Surfer, Knight, Barbarian, Viking an exotic costume with almost the same premise? Or not? I'm, I guess what would be termed as, "white" and I am none of those things, nor I have I ever met a Viking, Barbarian or indeed a knight. In fact the very word Barbarian means uncivilised or savage and was in fact a Roman racial slur for 100s of years. Depicting Eva 7 as mainly a bikini wearing, playboy bunny, Forest pixie doesn't strike you as Stereotyping at all from your comment?
I'm not trying to be contentious, but it's not hard to see that the logical step would be not to support Darius 7 at all as a vendor for risk of causing offense. In fact it almost seems like that is what your asking. And the next logical step would be why should Daz risk the offence by making Darius 7 at all. Which would be a loss for everyone imo.
"but it's not hard to see that the logical step would be to not to support Darius 7 at all as a vendor for risk of causing offense"
This is what I don't understand; why does "supporting Darius 7" automatically mean "making stereotypically and possibly even racist 'black' outfits"?
I have a Chinese friend. She is a piano teacher. She is not a martial artist.
I have about a dozen Japanese friends. None of them are martial artists or geisha.
I have a black friend. She is a mother of two daughters and a serious comic book fan. She's not a witch doctor, voodoo priestess, or tribal shaman.
I have yet to hear a reason why 'supporting a figure' means running wild with the first ethnic-related idea that crosses someone's mind. Again, I'm not saying that a voodoo outfit is completely inappropriate for a black character. It's inappropriate when the ENTIRE bundle is.
"for example a voodoo priest is considered as exotic borderline offensive, yet a white barbarian is not?"
No, it's not. No one ever looked at Conan the Barbarian and thought he was an offensive caricature of white people. That has been done with some regularity with voodoo or tribal costumes and black people.
All I'm saying is for DAZ to use a little sensitivity when planning sales for ethnic characters and to coordinate with PAs to avoid theme overkill.
I think if something like that jumpsuit came out with Monique, people would complain about it, and see something racial. That's kind of the problem; everything can be taken negatively. Construction worker? You're saying he's only good for menial labor. Loose jeans? You're portraying him as a thug. The most stereotypically whitebread insurance salesman outfit you can imagine? Why are you making him culturally white? Is that the only way you can positively portray him? (You think I jest, but have you looked at the internet lately?)
If I'm honest the problem really comes down to variety. The more there is, the less likely we are to see one example as representative. Good news, in our own art we get to stick whomever we want in whatever we want. Bad news, bundles have what, 3 outfits? that's never going to be enough to create the variety needed to not have any connotations. Add to that, they were the 2nd to last figures released, so they're not in all that much promo art either (I did check in everyday>daz originals and since their release they're actually pretty well represented I would guess Monique shows up more than all but V6 and Olympia)
Anyway, sort of going with D-A's point, Pick three outfits thematically going with a black character. They have to be exciting and have mass appeal (show some skin would be good). Oh, and don't offend anybody. Sit down, Cry.
"Pick three outfits thematically going with a black character."
And again I ask, why do they have to be "thematic"? How about a business suit, some athletic shorts and shoes, a bathrobe, some plate mail armor, and then the voodoo outfit?
This isn't about one outfit being offensive, it's about the whole "asians = karate" "black = voodoo/tribal" mentality. The fact that few people seem to get this is more disappointing than anything.
"This is what I don't understand; why does "supporting Darius 7" automatically mean "making stereotypically and possibly even racist 'black' outfits"?"
I can't support Darius 7 by making nothing for him. It's as simple as that. If I make a fireman outfit it would be for Genesis 3 Male which would work with Darius 7, but likely not to be a Darius 7 specific release. If there are no thematic or specialised outfits, then there is no specialised support for the character. I'm asking what would you like to see for Darius 7 and the answer is nothing different from the base male figure but a sprinkling of Voodoo outfit is okay as long as there is other content for Darius 7 available. But you cannot suggest what the other content should be for Darius 7 specifically, to create the diversity of content to allow the Voodoo outfit to be reasonable addition to his wardrobe.
It seems like circular logic. Darius 6 can wear anything made for Genesis 2 Male yet the Voodoo outfit is still an apparent issue for the same reason, but you seem to be saying that if there were more stuff for Darius 6 then the Voodoo outfit would be okay.
The situation leaves me a little confused and I feel safer to just back away for fear of causing offense. I.E no support for Darius 7.
"No, it's not. No one ever looked at Conan the Barbarian and thought he was an offensive caricture of white people. That has been done with some regularity with voodoo or tribal costumes and black people."
Umm, Yes it is....
It's a well documented and well used, throughout history, Racial and cultural slur. While not specially used for light skin toned people it was used more generally for anyone outside of the culture it originated in, which originally was Greek.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarian
• Being a Barbarian in Greek Culture meant you had no rights as a person and were free to be sold as a slave.
The very word barbarian means uncultured and brutish to this day. Have you ever heard anyone called a barbarian in a postive way. "You fixed my computer like a true Barbarian."
The best thing would be to make clothing product promotion on neutral grey skin characters.
As for the "Packs"... just abandom them entirely as they are now if they cause so much trouble.
Or make a Starter Pack that adds some characters. Make a "Pro" package that has the gens and some characters, and that's it. No hair, no clothes. Cheaper Price. More sales. Less hassels.
For the clothing, you can have "related products" that cover a wide range of outfits, and you can have something like the "if you buy the character/Pro Pack, get extra 25% off" or something along the line. It doesn't have to be specifically for the character, even if that means "no direct support for the character".
That systemIt's easy to understand and uncomplicated, and people will have a choice.
But that's just my two cents about the topic.
Help me out here, because I have an understanding problem.
Darius is a G2M character. As such, he can wear any G2M product. Alternately, my M6 can wear Darius 6 clothings. There might be "extra shape morphs" that need to be added to make the perfect fit, so that would make them specifcally "supporting Darius 6".
I don't see the problem in having a, say, space suit, as part of a Darius 6 release, or main promotion image, because the space suit has a generic shape fit that is added especially for the character, hence supporting him...
Which, by what you said would be completely wrong, as the space suit would be tailored for G2M, and wouldn't have Darius 7 fit morphs...?
*confused*
Fair points Lee and there is a lot of logic to the idea, but a little uninspiring solution from the point of view of an artist and as a marketer .
Here is my latest clothing design pictured on a featureless nondescript generic grey figure, doesn't it inspire you to create great art and make a purchase?
Lets hope gender doesn't become the next contention point, or all clothing may then need to be promoted on what is equivalent to a Genesis 1 grey Base figure.
It will be a sad day indeed, if that does become the mandate. Hopefully we can learn to celebrate our diversity and not be forced to abandon any individual characteristics for fear of causing offense. Before anything as drastic as that is required.
••• •••
Most general Genesis 2 Male releases support all Daz Genesis 2 Male figures. If it is a Micheal 6 release it may only support Michael 6 beyond auto fit capability. A Genesis 2 Male Space suit should work with the Darius figure and could be released in a Darius launch sale.
Though there is still the possibility of any generic items causing some kind of unintended offense regardless. Especially if for a very obvious example there was a voodoo type outfit featuring Darius and a business suit with Michael in the promo's on the same launch sale for Darius. It seems to be quite a delicate balancing act when going into more sublte inferences.
In fact releasing specialised products alongside of more generic type figure items is the actual current release method I believe. If you have a look at Eva today most products are in fact for Genesis 3 Female. Also marketing can only select from what products are ready and available, generally the aim is to tie the items theme in with the release events main subject.
Sometimes sterotypes exist because they are true, or there is truth in them; that doesn't stop them being offensive. It is, however, easy to be offended by anything.
What I don't see much of, and think there should be is mixed-raced; i see a lot of folks who appear to be, yet we don't have that represented; tanned caucasian skin doesn't cut it.
In short what I meant, is it is coming across as the best/safest way to support Darius 7 is to in fact just support Genesis 3 Male(s). And not to create any specific Darius 7 targeted content at all. Which is pretty much like your suggesting Lee.
Apologies if my examples and explanations were somewhat convoluted.
Almost all the pro packs have themes though (and people have been known to complain when they don't) Olympia was barbarian/pinup, giselle was fairy themed, etc.
Of course that is that variety thing again. You have giselle and olympia etc. who are all white (well I'm not sure if Stephanie is. Her face morph is, but if you stuck her on a different face morph and who can tell), vs. just one monique. So there are more specific themes. The best remedy would be multiple black character bundles (I want a jazz themed one personally) Unfortuneately I don't thank DAZ would make enough monies.
Also not to nitpick but the darius pack did have athletic shorts and shoes, a dress shirt and pants and then the voodoo outfit. The monique pack was the one with the three tribalesque outfits, although if you got rid of the staff the swamp witch one made an excellent peasent dress as well.
Would it be fair to say that your issue is less that minority chatacters have stereotypical outfits, and more that you feel that they are portrayed as primarily/only that (particularly in promotional images)? If so I don't really disagree with you
I am done :)
Since the clothing can be fitted to any of the Gen6 males (same for the females), what it comes down to is the following: The way they are portrayed in the promo's of these bundles. Personally, I think this is more of a marketting error on DAZ' part then anything else.
I don't really see the need for themes with characters. Especiallyl for men, where masculine content is very limited. I would appreciate a wider variety of content especially when there is not a lot of base content to go around.
"But you cannot suggest what the other content should be for Darius 7 specifically, to create the diversity of content to allow the Voodoo outfit to be reasonable addition to his wardrobe."
I gave you a half-dozen ideas off the top of my head.
"Umm, Yes it is....
It's a well documented and well used, throughout history, Racial and cultural slur."
The word is, not the outfit. That's what we're talking about here. No one looks at a fantasy barbarian outfit and thinks it's disparaging to a particular race.
I'm not going to argue this any further because now we're getting into the "well everything can be offensive" arguments, and all they do is deflect from addressing the issue. Guess I'll bring it up again when we get Maria and Jose 7 and their inevitable matador/gardener/taco truck bundle. ;)
mebbe social consciousness begins with a promo render?
I think it adds a contentious note to say "damned if I do and damned if I don't" and ignores a simple truth in all of this. Daz3d has a global audience and, understandibly, creates characters with strong and simple descriptions i.e... Teen josie and Brodie are generic teens, Gia is athletic etc... However, the bulk of the bundles such as Brodie, Teen Josie, Eva 7, Victoria 1 through 7, Michael 1-7, David, Gianni, Stephanie etc...did not have ethnic signifiers in their bundles. Monique and Darius could wear all of the clothes without any controversy. However, the idea somehow became fixed that "ethnic" characters have to have "ethnic" clothes which unfornately locks up the characters in a stereotyped box. It is important to understand that Darius and Monique are exactly as generic or ethnic as Michael and Victoria; one pair of figures is no more exotic than the other. If someone dressed Monique in a 1800 century ballgown like Dido Elizabeth Belle http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2404181/, it is as historically appropriate as dressing Victoria in the same gown. Likewise, a renaissance garment worn by Darius could invoke Allesandro de' Medici and also be useful for Michael to wear. Rather than locking out these characters from some rather narrow roles, we are encouraging artists to look a litte further because if people are going to complain in eitrher case, you might as well support the people who are a least knowledgable on the subject.
Sir Morien
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moriaen
Maybe a flapper, or jazz singer.
Othello
And see, here's the thing... if you made a Darius (or whatever) pro pack that included some of those clothes, you'd create an incentive for people who want it on other characters to buy the pack (and you can always sell them separately)
Oh I see, thanks for helping me with my PC ettiquette.
It does seem it is possible to offend at least one person with almost anything these days. Depictions of sentient beings in art are considered offensive by some. One thing I do find funny with people who take the moral high ground is that they only seem to be concerned with what there own version of what is considered offensive. Anything else just doesn't seem to matter. Seems a little insensitive in itself somehow.
i will bow out now and let this thread descend to it's inevitable conclusion. I would cross my fingers that it doesn't get to ugly. But crossing ones fingers is actually quite offensive in Vietnam. So all i will say is good luck with it.