Powerage Vintage Projector??? QC fail

inception8 · November 2022

maikdecker said:

inception8 said:
I have no idea what product you're specifically describing but maybe that's liberty gone too far perhaps. I dunno.
However the Vikings did travel around alot did they not. I'm almost certain they made it to the Mediterranean which is or was a hub. You can find lots of things in a hub. And that's how I easily explained how a Japanese sword made it's way into a Viking village. Ya know making stuff up is fun because it might be true. But I will tell you what makes me cringe is one of the 'Vikings' in the 13th Warrior with the stupid 'celtic knot' tattoo across his nose. Now that is an example of Hollywood.

I made that "example" up, to not single out any real product and shame any PA. I thought when using something as abstruse as possible it would be obvious that is wasn't a real product. Alas, by your explanation it seems that people might even manage to find some "explanation" for utterly impossible things. The vikings really had trade relations with the far east, by Byzantium. Alas, that wasn't an "easy way" to import stuff from Japan to Scandinavia. And considering the differences of fighting style from Japan and northern Europe, they wouldn't have been much inclined to use such an unusual weapon. So making up a plot to see such a weapon find it's way into the hands of a viking to wield it borders "Highlander" territory... so yeah, pure Hollywood.. as about 90% of the "Viking" stuff offered in Dazland.

You can't blame me for trying. Also just because someone has a sword doesn't mean they used it. A collectable or perhaps a gift. And it's not to say that someone even just one person can't learn how to use a weapon outside of their own culture while also living amongst other cultures. Look what happens when Vikings then became the Normans. Changes everything when you understand that it happened. The Normans were firstly former Vikings who were then exposed to Western Europe who then beat the Anglo-Saxons. Norman castles were then everywhere. I don't think Viking culture was as taboo as other cultures.

Richard Haseltine · November 2022

inception8 said:

maikdecker said:

inception8 said:
I have no idea what product you're specifically describing but maybe that's liberty gone too far perhaps. I dunno.
However the Vikings did travel around alot did they not. I'm almost certain they made it to the Mediterranean which is or was a hub. You can find lots of things in a hub. And that's how I easily explained how a Japanese sword made it's way into a Viking village. Ya know making stuff up is fun because it might be true. But I will tell you what makes me cringe is one of the 'Vikings' in the 13th Warrior with the stupid 'celtic knot' tattoo across his nose. Now that is an example of Hollywood.

I made that "example" up, to not single out any real product and shame any PA. I thought when using something as abstruse as possible it would be obvious that is wasn't a real product. Alas, by your explanation it seems that people might even manage to find some "explanation" for utterly impossible things. The vikings really had trade relations with the far east, by Byzantium. Alas, that wasn't an "easy way" to import stuff from Japan to Scandinavia. And considering the differences of fighting style from Japan and northern Europe, they wouldn't have been much inclined to use such an unusual weapon. So making up a plot to see such a weapon find it's way into the hands of a viking to wield it borders "Highlander" territory... so yeah, pure Hollywood.. as about 90% of the "Viking" stuff offered in Dazland.

You can't blame me for trying. Also just because someone has a sword doesn't mean they used it. A collectable or perhaps a gift. And it's not to say that someone even just one person can't learn how to use a weapon outside of their own culture while also living amongst other cultures. Look what happens when Vikings then became the Normans. Changes everything when you understand that it happened. The Normans were firstly former Vikings who were then exposed to Western Europe who then beat the Anglo-Saxons. Norman castles were then everywhere. I don't think Viking culture was as taboo as other cultures.

A different family of Normans also conquered Sicily and the Kingdom of Naples

maikdecker · November 2022

inception8 said:

You can't blame me for trying. Also just because someone has a sword doesn't mean they used it. A collectable or perhaps a gift. And it's not to say that someone even just one person can't learn how to use a weapon outside of their own culture while also living amongst other cultures. Look what happens when Vikings then became the Normans. Changes everything when you understand that it happened. The Normans were firstly former Vikings who were then exposed to Western Europe who then beat the Anglo-Saxons. Norman castles were then everywhere. I don't think Viking culture was as taboo as other cultures.

If (!) japanese weaponry would have been available in viking age scandinavia and would have been considered something valuable, there would have been at least some pieces to be found in the hundreds (or more?) burial sites, in which people got buried with their most precious valuables, especially weapons... And as it would have been come from the silk road, there should have been founds all along the way, too. Especially at Byzantium. But it would have been traders who would have brought such things to the west. Alas, they would have had little reason to bring these items, compared to better selling stuff like cloth (silk, mostly) and lightweight valuables as spices and the occasional art object (like that Buddha figure found in scandinavia). Which resembles quite closely, what DAZland PAs do - try to sell what sells to make money..

And to use a more realistic example for "things one wouldn't see in a viking household" (and the reason why it's found in a "viking" product), a recently released "Norse Furniture" set includes a stool/chair made from two wooden boards intersecting each other. With some nice "viking-ish" decor carving. The problem is, not a single of these chairs was found in scandinavia. And chances that something like that would have been transported to scandinavia from sub-sahara africa, where these type of chair was used by females giving birth, are quite slim. Funnily enough, chairs of this design are sold by internet traders and re-enactment dealers als "authentic viking chairs", showing clearly that DAZland PAs aren't the only ones who do not do their homework about "sources". In the same set is also an example of a viking bed. Made - a bit - after the example of a bed found in the grave at Gokstad. Funnylierwise I do know quite well how it is supposed to be done, because I made one myself after pictures and drawings when I was doing Viking re-enactment myself. It only consists of some boards, some lats and some splint pins that made sure that the boards stay in place when stick through the wholes sawed into them. One has to take care to attach the boards to each other in a certain way, though, to make it stable. The example in that DAZland product looks nice on the first glance, but would never be stable... Then there's closets with drawers... and lots of other stuff, which would fit nicely into a modern household of a "Viking age fan" who would want to use modern furniture with some viking-ish look, but not the real thing...

So.. yeah... if one strains one's imagination, there can be explanations for about EVERYTHING, but still it would be Hollywood...

The Normans who conquered britain and sicily are probably fourth or fifth generation Normans (with the Normandy been given to Rollo in 911) consisting of scandinavians intermingling with the french and adapting their fighting style to the more "bigger land battles with horses" style used in the rest of europe, compared to the "hit, plunder and run" style they preferred when doing their ship based plunder journeys... So yeah, on a larger scale scandinavians were very adaptable to new stuff. When needed. But a japanese blade of that time would have given no benefit above european made weapons, which were done quite craftly made and a wealthy scandinavian jarl would have preferred to have an Ulfberht sword than one of those pre-Katana swords (which would probably would not have been done in the early Viking ages anyway) or a blade made from damask steel...

inception8 · November 2022

maikdecker said:

inception8 said:

You can't blame me for trying. Also just because someone has a sword doesn't mean they used it. A collectable or perhaps a gift. And it's not to say that someone even just one person can't learn how to use a weapon outside of their own culture while also living amongst other cultures. Look what happens when Vikings then became the Normans. Changes everything when you understand that it happened. The Normans were firstly former Vikings who were then exposed to Western Europe who then beat the Anglo-Saxons. Norman castles were then everywhere. I don't think Viking culture was as taboo as other cultures.

If (!) japanese weaponry would have been available in viking age scandinavia and would have been considered something valuable, there would have been at least some pieces to be found in the hundreds (or more?) burial sites, in which people got buried with their most precious valuables, especially weapons... And as it would have been come from the silk road, there should have been founds all along the way, too. Especially at Byzantium. But it would have been traders who would have brought such things to the west. Alas, they would have had little reason to bring these items, compared to better selling stuff like cloth (silk, mostly) and lightweight valuables as spices and the occasional art object (like that Buddha figure found in scandinavia). Which resembles quite closely, what DAZland PAs do - try to sell what sells to make money..

"...what DAZland PAs do - try to sell what sells to make money.."

This of course IS the ultimate goal. But I don't think it's confined to DAZland PAs. [Although one might suggest that both Daz and Poser land share a common bubble]

I mean when you're making something in 3d not everyone is thinking in terms of accuracy or historical fact. It's the hard part to claim that it is 'that' as a selling point that might be suggested that people would have issues with that they believe matters.

If I made Celtic jewelry (and I actually did once upon a time for V4) and I called it Celtic jewelry in the title I'm hoping that I don't make the mistake of any items looking like it's actually Norse because I've studied alot of it to know the difference. Even if I did and I called it that some people aren't going to care as much about that fact as much as they just like that it looks good and they'll enjoy using it all the same or they have enough familiarity with what Celtic looks like that that's all they need to know.

And that comes all the way back around to the projector.

maikdecker · November 2022

inception8 said:

"...what DAZland PAs do - try to sell what sells to make money.."

This of course IS the ultimate goal. But I don't think it's confined to DAZland PAs. [Although one might suggest that both Daz and Poser land share a common bubble]

I might be having the wrong impressions, but the "try to make what sells.." style of designing products looks to be more prominent in DAZland than at Rendo. Of course PAs there also produce obviously flawed products with names that try to make a historical connection, while failing utterly when histoical facts are taken in count, but for me (!) the number of artists who stick to real existing things - roman buildings, historical armour and stuff - seems higher there than here. Might be because here in DAZland seem to be more "professional" PAs who need to sell loads of stuff to pay their rent, while at Rendo there's more "hobbyists" who invest more time over longer times into their products because they have a real job on the side. Might be that I'm wrong and it's just that some PAs do care and others don't...

I mean when you're making something in 3d not everyone is thinking in terms of accuracy or historical fact. It's the hard part to claim that it is 'that' as a selling point that might be suggested that people would have issues with that they believe matters.

Not everybody, right. Unless it's rooms without doors, toilets without seats or Viking Helmets with horns... For me (!) it's all about respect. In our case respect about historical facts. When an author would comes out with a book which implies by it's title that it is an historically accurate story, people should be able to expect that it IS historically accurate. But of course you are right: many people don't bother, so many producers of any stuff - books, movies, 3D stuff - don't bother either... which means they lack respect for history... which could they just remedy, by naming their products properly. To make people like me into possible customers, who might buy some fantasy named item, that slightly resembles some real historical artifact but would feel to cringy when buying a lackluster copy...

If I made Celtic jewelry (and I actually did once upon a time for V4) and I called it Celtic jewelry in the title I'm hoping that I don't make the mistake of any items looking like it's actually Norse because I've studied alot of it to know the difference. Even if I did and I called it that some people aren't going to care as much about that fact as much as they just like that it looks good and they'll enjoy using it all the same or they have enough familiarity with what Celtic looks like that that's all they need to know.

And that comes all the way back around to the projector.

Just sell it as "Jewelry" without calling it Celtic then... Those "in the know" will notice what it is. Those who aren't and don't care don't bother about the name anyway. No problem when there's a "Barbarian Helmet" with horns attached, as long as the PA doesn't tries to jump on the "Vikings TV Show" train to profit from it...

kyoto kid · November 2022

...Hollywood and television are the cbampions of inaccuracy.

background · November 2022

.

Sometimes in films and TV it's due to lack of economically available props, or managing the number of characters so that the audience can keep track of who is who.

It was common to see American half-tracks and tanks painted as German WW2 vehicles as there weren't many genuine German WW2 vehicles is servicable condition. Even a film like "The Battle of Britain" where they went to great lengths for historical accuracy used Merlin engined ME109 look-al-likes.

Many historical movies have single characters taking actions which were really carried out by several different people.

frank0314 · November 2022

Richard Haseltine said:

Cybersox said:

Richard Haseltine said:

Cybersox said:

I really didn't expect this thread to become a debate as to what it is that DAZ QC is responsible for, but since everything keeps getting turned back to that, let's first clarify that in the business world QC, aka quality control, is not something that's exclusive to the department that has QC in the name. And, more to the point, if the responsibility of determing whether an item being sold is actually what it says it is ISN'T the job of QC, then exactly whose responsibility IS it?

That begs the question of whether this is something that anyone should be responsible for. It's not as if Hollywood is noted for getting its facts right, and they have people going through everything with a fine tooth comb to check for rights issues so that certainly isn't down to lack of attention. 3D content is not a certified historical or scientific document.

Um... wow. So, because sometimes movies get facts and details wrong, that makes it okay for DAZ to not even try? When did the meaning of the letters in the name get changed to the Digital Apathy Zone?

Idon't know if Daz tries, that was my point not theirs. I did notice the modern symbols on the bittons, and then wondered if they were even applicable - I didn't notice most of the other issues, though the lack of sprocket holes and not having path through the projection elements are sceramingly obvious now. But just how many resources do you want devoted to checking products? tryting to do it in-house would be hopeless, having a (large, given the range of content produced) stable of outside experts would be prohibitively expensive. Ultimately I do not believe it is Daz' role to police authenticity or accuracy, though I certainly reserve the right to roll my eyes when they mis-cook one of my pigeons.

Adding to Richards comments (my two cents): "Um... wow. So, because sometimes movies get facts and details wrong, that makes it okay for DAZ to not even try? When did the meaning of the letters in the name get changed to the Digital Apathy Zone?" When Daz gets a $100,000,000 budget to do a single project we can demand such standards. Heck even a $100,000 budget. Daz is a brokerage, and a small one at that. They just happen to be the best one. They are not content creators. That is what the PA's are for. No it isn't Daz's job to go over the authenticity of a product and how accurate it is, nor is it QA's job either. All that is important is the quality of that particular product. Sometimes the two do ask for changes or give suggestions but the PA is still free to do it as they like. Who's to say art or their vision of a piece has to be historically accurate or that the PA has to stay true to it? Some people don't really care if its accurate or not and buy it anyway. Others want the authenticity so they don't buy it. It's a simple equation, buy it or don't buy it. The PA will have to decide if being accurate or inaccurate is the be3st course of action according to their sales numbers. No one is right or wrong in this. It comes down to personal preference. Everyone is free to choose what they like and don't like.

FirstBastion · November 2022

Have a good look at this armor and think what gets impaled if the character falls forward.

frank0314 · November 2022

Ouch, that would be painful to wear. Don't sneeze.

kyoto kid · November 2022

background said:

.

Sometimes in films and TV it's due to lack of economically available props, or managing the number of characters so that the audience can keep track of who is who.

It was common to see American half-tracks and tanks painted as German WW2 vehicles as there weren't many genuine German WW2 vehicles is servicable condition. Even a film like "The Battle of Britain" where they went to great lengths for historical accuracy used Merlin engined ME109 look-al-likes.

Many historical movies have single characters taking actions which were really carried out by several different people.

...my favourite were Checkers (the old taxicab) painted black and used as Soviet staff cars in old espionage films

kyoto kid · November 2022

...items like the subject of this thread often end up in 2.99$ sales.

maikdecker · November 2022

kyoto kid said:

...items like the subject of this thread often end up in 2.99$ sales.

Or as DAZ+ freebies... when it's not plants, which usually are nicely accurate realistic.

inception8 · November 2022

maikdecker said:

inception8 said:

"...what DAZland PAs do - try to sell what sells to make money.."

This of course IS the ultimate goal. But I don't think it's confined to DAZland PAs. [Although one might suggest that both Daz and Poser land share a common bubble]

I might be having the wrong impressions, but the "try to make what sells.." style of designing products looks to be more prominent in DAZland than at Rendo. Of course PAs there also produce obviously flawed products with names that try to make a historical connection, while failing utterly when histoical facts are taken in count, but for me (!) the number of artists who stick to real existing things - roman buildings, historical armour and stuff - seems higher there than here. Might be because here in DAZland seem to be more "professional" PAs who need to sell loads of stuff to pay their rent, while at Rendo there's more "hobbyists" who invest more time over longer times into their products because they have a real job on the side. Might be that I'm wrong and it's just that some PAs do care and others don't...

Both groups have an assortment of Professional and Hobbyist or simply Professional Hobbyist. I'm going to leave it at that.

background · November 2022

There's also the question of how accurate is accurate? For anyone who knows Stephensons 'Rocket' locomotive it brings to mind a small brightly painted engine with steeply inclined cylinders. It still exists but doesn't look anything like described , it's almost black and the cylinders are nearly hozizontal. I believe it was rebuilt and repurposed during its long life, possibly several times. If you bought a model of the Rocket 'sight unseen' would you complain if it looked like its current condition? Yet a model in current condition would be accurate, maybe just not what you expected.

It looks like it may have been used as a stationary boiler toward the end of its active life, since there are no connecting rods to the driving wheels.

kyoto kid · November 2022

..this is a video projector:

It requires an external signal source such as a video broadcast/cable receiver/router, a DVD player, or for those who are "old school", a VCR. There is no "media" (eg. videotape) within the projector.

WendyLuvsCatz · November 2022

kyoto kid said:

..this is a video projector:

It requires an external signal source such as a video broadcast/cable receiver/router, a DVD player, or for those who are "old school", a VCR. There is no "media" (eg. videotape) within the projector.

well it can have a usb slot

kyoto kid · November 2022

...a USB is still an "external" soruce not within the projector itself.

maikdecker · November 2022

inception8 said:

maikdecker said:

Might be that I'm wrong and it's just that some PAs do care and others don't...

Both groups have an assortment of Professional and Hobbyist or simply Professional Hobbyist. I'm going to leave it at that.

Yeah, sounds proper.

background said:

There's also the question of how accurate is accurate? For anyone who knows Stephensons 'Rocket' locomotive it brings to mind a small brightly painted engine with steeply inclined cylinders. It still exists but doesn't look anything like described , it's almost black and the cylinders are nearly hozizontal. I believe it was rebuilt and repurposed during its long life, possibly several times. If you bought a model of the Rocket 'sight unseen' would you complain if it looked like its current condition? Yet a model in current condition would be accurate, maybe just not what you expected.

It looks like it may have been used as a stationary boiler toward the end of its active life, since there are no connecting rods to the driving wheels.

Well, there's a shipload of pictures, drawing and probably describtions of it available when just asking Google, so if someone would make a product out of one the different versions, it would be only a problem when using the wrong name/timescale/look combination... like I wrote: Barbarian Helmet with Horns = okay. Vinking Helmet with Horns = don't do that...

McGyver · November 2022

What about a sombrero with horns?... They aren't as well known, but the Mexican Vikings were quite well known and feared for a brief time.

Cybersox · November 2022

McGyver said:

What about a sombrero with horns?... They aren't as well known, but the Mexican Vikings were quite well known and feared for a brief time.

Please, the term Mexican Vikings was one used by a few historians of dubious repute who were engaged in an ill-thought agenda for Mexico to annex Greenland. The appropriate term for those infamous horned sombrero-wearing, seafaring plunderers who were also distinguished by their low-slung, multi-oared raiding "low rower" craft and terrifying war horns, war guitars, and war mararaccas is Marauderachis.

McGyver · November 2022

Cybersox said:

McGyver said:

What about a sombrero with horns?... They aren't as well known, but the Mexican Vikings were quite well known and feared for a brief time.

Please, the term Mexican Vikings was one used by a few historians of dubious repute who were engaged in an ill-thought agenda for Mexico to annex Greenland. The appropriate term for those infamous horned sombrero-wearing, seafaring plunderers who were also distinguished by their low-slung, multi-oared raiding "low rower" craft and terrifying war horns, war guitars, and war mararaccas is Marauderachis.

Noted and this will probably be revisited at some point in the near future!

kyoto kid · November 2022

Cybersox said:

McGyver said:

What about a sombrero with horns?... They aren't as well known, but the Mexican Vikings were quite well known and feared for a brief time.

Please, the term Mexican Vikings was one used by a few historians of dubious repute who were engaged in an ill-thought agenda for Mexico to annex Greenland. The appropriate term for those infamous horned sombrero-wearing, seafaring plunderers who were also distinguished by their low-slung, multi-oared raiding "low rower" craft and terrifying war horns, war guitars, and war mararaccas is Marauderachis.

...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=010aaw1Ajo0

inception8 · November 2022

maikdecker said:

No problem when there's a "Barbarian Helmet" with horns attached, as long as the PA doesn't tries to jump on the "Vikings TV Show" train to profit from it...

If there's one thing you can be sure of it's that there's always a train passing through.

Speaking of trains. Man I hope there's another season of Snowpiercer. [derailed]

maikdecker · November 2022

inception8 said:

maikdecker said:

No problem when there's a "Barbarian Helmet" with horns attached, as long as the PA doesn't tries to jump on the "Vikings TV Show" train to profit from it...

If there's one thing you can be sure of it's that there's always a train passing through.

Speaking of trains. Man I hope there's another season of Snowpiercer. [derailed]

Oh? There's a whole TV series about it? And at 4 seasons already? I only have seen the movie and it was way beyond what my taste for "fantasy" allowed me to swallow... Guess I sit out this one (like so many other "hyped" TV series'"

background · November 2022

It seems there is plenty of appetite for fantasy these days. In the UK even our museums and school history books are engaging in it.

maikdecker · November 2022

background said:

It seems there is plenty of appetite for fantasy these days. In the UK even our museums and school history books are engaging in it.

For a really interesting mixture of fantasy and history check this link. It's really an eye opener in many ways...

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