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Or a prosumer version of VHS rewind machine.
This discussion reminds me of the joke "Audiophiles don’t use their equipment to listen to music. Audiophiles use music to listen to their equipment."
However, as long as this product is labeled as "vintage," I would like to see some research on the actual product to keep it realistic.
Home movie projectors are not science fiction gadgets, they were in real ordinary homes, so obvious mistakes are not welcome.
I used to play with 8mm and 16mm film cameras and projectors until just 20 years ago.
in the 70's in secondary school we did too briefly until our media teacher got the sack for having an affair with an underage student (grooming/statuatory rape they call it now)
cutting and splicing the developed film was fun and our "specialFX" making people dissappear etc
If that is what you want, you can achieve the same effect by placing a scaled-down bicycle upside down.
Making images based on "look-and-feel" is an everyday occurrence, but if we make it our main focus, all products will lose their raison d'être.
In the near future, some young person will make a model of a vintage gas station with a charging plug at the end of the fueling nozzle.
And the day will come when those who point out the mistake will be offended by the opposite.
That is exactly what happened this time.
A "vintage projector" with magnetic tape going through the head is the same entity as a "gas stove" with an electric cord connected to it.
Exactly and I would think neither is it the responsibility of the panel of individuals who look over the product before it even reaches QC. Seems to me the QC ensures the product works or functions as expected based on the description and what it's meant to do within that descriptive boundary.
However it could be said that certain kinds of products might need to have questions at the beginning stage before it ever reaches QC. If that doesn't happen then what can you do.
But I bet you alot of people probably dont or won't care because it fulfills just enough of what it needs to be and that's all that's going to matter.
Of course I could be wrong.
I understand the influence of the kneeler, the Batpod from Batman: The Dark Knight, but I am troubled that when I look for motorcycles, I see many motorcycles with four-wheeled automobile tires that are square in cross section and flat on the ground.
A motorcycle without steps or a kneeler without knee rests cannot be ridden by a human, but thank goodness there is no gravity in the DAZ world.
It is fine to place them as background decorations in still images, but when trying to produce videos of natural driving scenes, many models seem to have difficulty in making them look natural.
There are many models that can manage to express only straight running without curves.
Accurate details are appreciated when recognized.
Some might call it "artist's freedom" to follow one's imagination when designing products to be sold at DAZland which would never ever could work in the real world, due to the laws of physics or simple logic intervening. And we got tons of those already...
Just today, there's a furniture set supposed to be looking as if it was from a certain time period, using some design elements that really would have been used then, but made of stuff that people just didn't use in them olden days or set up in a way, that would just not work in reality (because the PA tried to achieve a look he probably had seen, without knowing how the furniture was done in reality..)
I also just recently bought a spaceship... I don't expect logic for SciFi vessels of transportation, when it's about engines and whatnots... but having a hull that's so low that a G8M figure's head pushes out of it, when he wants to reach the commander's chair (all the while built in a way, that simple scaling isn't possible, as too many parts being connected and scaling together) or Airlocks that aren't airtight or don't have any ladders or other means to help people to get through them, while leading only up or down out of the spaceship, is really hitting the boundaries of "what did the PA think when he designed this" territory.
I really didn't expect this thread to become a debate as to what it is that DAZ QC is responsible for, but since everything keeps getting turned back to that, let's first clarify that in the business world QC, aka quality control, is not something that's exclusive to the department that has QC in the name. And, more to the point, if the responsibility of determing whether an item being sold is actually what it says it is ISN'T the job of QC, then exactly whose responsibility IS it? Clearly it can't be left to the PA's, since... and let me clarify that in this I'm using the term PA here as a generic for ANY PA in the broadest global sense and NOT referring to this one artist in particular... is likely to be either unaware of the errors or knowingly taking shortcuts in either research or production. Is there not, at some point, somewhere between when it's created by a PA and when it shows up in the store, a review process? Everything I've read over the years in interviews with DAZ PAs indicates that there most certainly is, and many report that they are often given lists of notes and revisions before the product is allowed into the store, assuming that the product is not rejected outright. Is that not Quality Control at it's most basic and fundemental level? Or is there some technical term like DAZmatifying that will make everyone more happy?
And yes, there are varying degrees of the level of detail and accuracy that a product may require, and the nature of DAZ is such that some compromise is usually necessary. We've all long since been forced to live with the fact that DAZ is rarely able to make clothing that fits, drapes and functions naturally at the same time and has thus created a universe where buttons float in free space and zippers rarely exist, for example, because for the vast majority of possible uses that DAZ clothes are likely to be used for, they still function adequately. On the other hand, how many people are willing to purchase, at current DAZ prices, a model of a car where the doors don't open, the wheels and steering column don't turn, and there are no seats? In terms of how effective the VIntage Projector product can be used versus the poses that one would expect to use it for, this product is a car without tires or a steering wheel, and that doors that open inwards intstead of outwards, and wooden kitchen chairs instead of padded seats. It really is that far from what it's advertised as.
The level of realism to go into a product is a difficult one, and it's hard to decide where to make the cut-off.
If you're designing a prop of any sort, I do feel you need to come from a basis of knowing how it should work. This is true of fantasy, sci-fi, everyday or historical items. In the case of Fantasy & Sci-Fi the PA needs to have a scheme in their head as to how it works and then make that seem plausible. For everyday & historical items the PA has much less room for their imagination to roam in, because there are always going to be people who know more about the real item than they do, so research & a good working knowledge is needed to make a prop plausible.
Regards,
Richard
I honestly think there should be a thread of "modeling pet peeves" or something like that, somewhere that could serve as a kind of "guideline" for those new to model making.
I'd definitely not want to call out a particular model or creator by name, but screen shots of offending geometry or shabby texturing could serve to help people understand what not to do.
Or perhaps the complete opposite, and a thread where one shows awesome results of accuracy or thoughtful design.
There is really no way of giving feedback to content creators other than a WTH thread calling out something really weird or half baked.
Feedback is really important... it really makes for better content.
There are tons of things I see all the time that are glaring errors, either in texturing or modeling that I can't see how that got by... but they mostly aren't really Quality Control issues, as the model "works"... it's just not good at being what it's supposed to be.
That sounds mean and judgemental, but I used to always get the job of training interns at the design studio where I worked and not telling someone about a flaw in their work methods to save their feelings, just ensures it will happen again... in the case of modeling in 3D, not knowing people don't like toilets without seats or need doors into a room might not occur to one (I honestly don't see how, but you never know... they could be trapped in a doorless room for all eternity or they might not own a toilet seat)... maybe somebody didn't notice the mortar lines in the brick textures don't line up (I honestly don't see how), or they noticed it after the fact and they are like "Megh, it's too late now, it's not a big deal"... The process of how a finished model gets to the store is mystery to me as I've never actually seen or read an official account of the process and stuff I have read puzzles me a bit in respect to the methods and requirements.
As I said before, feedback is important... Sites like ShareCG have comment sections and often if there is an issue someone can bring it up or actually contact the artist if there is a problem, they can also rate the model as well... I don't expect DAZ/Taffy (I know I misspelled that) to ever institute a system like that because they've pretty much ruled that out, but if that's never going to happen, maybe some sort of helpful collection of "things to avoid".
I realize that could quickly go south and turn mean, but for the most part if it started out with a request to follow some level of reasonable critique, it could serve a purpose.
Most likely this will never happen and people will continue to make the same sort of mistakes over and over... which is sorta sad because I'm sure lots of mistakes could be avoided by people new to content creation who might wonder why they never saw the kind of sales they thought they might.
If the product is not a real vintage projector, but rather a joke item created as a "magnetic tape media player that imitates a silver halide film projector," then there should be no problem.
If so, it is nice as a joke item to have fast forward, rewind, and primary stop buttons.
The use of celluloid film is absolutely prohibited.
Nuovo Cinema Paradiso
Exactly. It doesn't get any more realistic than that.
That's [might be] very accurate. What I originally read and interpereted seemed to be a very self fulfilling way to roll someone over the coals. Either Daz QC or the PA. I don't know you personally but the way you wrote that is somewhat typical of the way in which I've read a number of these types of posts.
It's assumed that there is some evidence of a degree of entitlement on your part there perhaps when you read something like "because I know a thing or two about projectors I can't believe blah blah #&#^# blah ".
And you're definitely not the first one to do that.
"I want to be heard" or "I want to be heard for something important." And then is it for the right reason or the wrong reason. Did you finalize your post entry with something like "I hope that this critique encourages PA's to be more accurate or more aware of the choices they've made when creating content, etc, etc". It could have been that simple.
Sounded like you tried to get there but it's hard when it seems highly condescending. I would ask you why I would interpret it like that if true?
Just recently a customer contacted me at Renderosity [they actually have that ability there and I was immediately able to interact directly with the customer which is the way it probably should be] for a product of mine he just purchased that is from 2015. I addressed the issue and had it resolved quickly while really liking the personability of that exchange that I didn't need or have to go through a mediator.
Transparency is great but so is being discrete when necessary or just simply the right thing to do.
This is exactly my experience as a Renderosity customer when I contact a PA there with a problem about something I bought there. With a small exchange of onsite messages to explain the problem (and maybe offer a solution) the (very few) problems I encountered were solved, usually within a couple days.
Here in DAZland the tickets are resolved anywhen between 2 weeks or 2 years or maybe never... (my oldest ticket is 2 years and counting...)
That begs the question of whether this is something that anyone should be responsible for. It's not as if Hollywood is noted for getting its facts right, and they have people going through everything with a fine tooth comb to check for rights issues so that certainly isn't down to lack of attention. 3D content is not a certified historical or scientific document.
Um... wow. So, because sometimes movies get facts and details wrong, that makes it okay for DAZ to not even try? When did the meaning of the letters in the name get changed to the Digital Apathy Zone?
The projector sound in the demo video sounds 100% realistic and the start sequence in the movie looks realistic and professional too so I imagine powerage is aware of the lack of realism of the device itself. It looks to me like it's inspired by those apparently popular device models I linked to earlier as the similaritiy is rather striking.
I would agree.
Using Powerage's dawless setup as an example. I recognize several of the contents by other names haha. Roland TB303, Beringer Crave, Roland TR909, a modular of some kind, a Moog Mother, and a Boss Distortion pedal.
All really good renditions that are visually accurate.
Consider that he's right when he said "3D content is not a certified or scientific document". It means there's room for taking liberties. Sometimes that's a good thing especially if it works in a PA's favour when someone isn't holding that kind of impostion over your head.
@Cybersox ...or rooms which don't have doors that don't open or in some cases, having no doors at all.
ETA:
Whoops looks like McGyver beat me to this.
It's all about liberties than... The PAs have the liberty to produce a "Totally Original Based Viking Village with Props" which looks right out of an Ikea Catalog, with an added sprinkled bit of japanese Weaponry and a motor at the front of the dragonship... And I have the liberty to not buy it. But I rather shouldn't explain the reason why - lack of reality - because of "artists liberty"?!?
The only thing (!) I really would ask for, would be PAs restricting themselves when naming their products with describing names that are obviously utterly false. Don't call something "Viking" or "Medieval" or "Roman" or whatever when it obviously isn't. For every other problem I might face, like non-existing doors that would keep people from entering a room and suchlike I always have teo options: did the product come at a price allowing for me to ignore the problem or to take the time to find a solution to fix it myself? Or do I just return it and get my money back.
There's a handful of PAs on my "Don't ever buy not even when their stuff is sold for $ 1.99 because it's not worth it!" which managed to "burn" me once or twice with their products, before I adopted this rule.
And I don't expect DAZland to check products for this, when it seems obvious that they don't even have the personnel to check new products for the most of basic problems, like getting not installed in the proper subdirectory/-ies or in newly created directiories due to spelling errors in the directiories' names... Having to do even more "checking" would be clearly asked too much.
" It's all about liberties than... The PAs have the liberty to produce a "Totally Original Based Viking Village with Props" which looks right out of an Ikea Catalog, with an added sprinkled bit of japanese Weaponry and a motor at the front of the dragonship... And I have the liberty to not buy it. But I rather shouldn't explain the reason why - lack of reality - because of "artists liberty"?!?"
I have no idea what product you're specifically describing but maybe that's liberty gone too far perhaps. I dunno.
However the Vikings did travel around alot did they not. I'm almost certain they made it to the Mediterranean which is or was a hub. You can find lots of things in a hub. And that's how I easily explained how a Japanese sword made it's way into a Viking village. Ya know making stuff up is fun because it might be true. But I will tell you what makes me cringe is one of the 'Vikings' in the 13th Warrior with the stupid 'celtic knot' tattoo across his nose. Now that is an example of Hollywood.
"The only thing (!) I really would ask for, would be PAs restricting themselves when naming their products with describing names that are obviously utterly false. Don't call something "Viking" or "Medieval" or "Roman" or whatever when it obviously isn't.
The naming scheme that is employed by Daz is an odd pet peeve of mine but what it's meant to do is be as simple as possible in most cases to find in a search, the greatest exposure. If the PA has no idea what to call it it's not necessarily that the PA made that choice it could very well be that it was suggested by Daz. Daz is going to be as economic and fast as possible.
However some people get Celtic and Viking mixed up too especially in the knotwork. Viking knotwork has pointed angles or turns, Celtic knotwork is curved and more rounded. And then again some people don't care about historical accuracy either.
"There's a handful of PAs on my "Don't ever buy not even when their stuff is sold for $ 1.99 because it's not worth it!" which managed to "burn" me once or twice with their products, before I adopted this rule."
You mean like the bargain bin. It's probably older content. Doesn't mean it's not useful. I have a bunch of older content I sold to Daz that's about that price now maybe. I don't care it's old. Your choice man. Good for you. Good to have rules if you think it's necessary.
"And I don't expect DAZland to check products for this, when it seems obvious that they don't even have the personnel to check new products for the most of basic problems like getting not installed in the proper subdirectory/-ies or in newly created directiories due to spelling errors in the directiories' names... Having to do even more "checking" would be clearly asked too much."
To the first part it would currently appear that way. Have to work around it. To the second part that's why there is a Validator in Daz Studio that we use nowadays for just that reason. Older content may not have followed a more rigid or strict routine of using it. To go back and change all of those files at this point would take up alot of time that you would have to dedicate a team to for just that.
Idon't know if Daz tries, that was my point not theirs. I did notice the modern symbols on the bittons, and then wondered if they were even applicable - I didn't notice most of the other issues, though the lack of sprocket holes and not having path through the projection elements are sceramingly obvious now. But just how many resources do you want devoted to checking products? tryting to do it in-house would be hopeless, having a (large, given the range of content produced) stable of outside experts would be prohibitively expensive. Ultimately I do not believe it is Daz' role to police authenticity or accuracy, though I certainly reserve the right to roll my eyes when they mis-cook one of my pigeons.
I made that "example" up, to not single out any real product and shame any PA. I thought when using something as abstruse as possible it would be obvious that is wasn't a real product. Alas, by your explanation it seems that people might even manage to find some "explanation" for utterly impossible things. The vikings really had trade relations with the far east, by Byzantium. Alas, that wasn't an "easy way" to import stuff from Japan to Scandinavia. And considering the differences of fighting style from Japan and northern Europe, they wouldn't have been much inclined to use such an unusual weapon. So making up a plot to see such a weapon find it's way into the hands of a viking to wield it borders "Highlander" territory... so yeah, pure Hollywood.. as about 90% of the "Viking" stuff offered in Dazland.
No, I mean I got burned by buying new stuff from some PAs that turned out flawed. Which I did not return, as it would have usually would have broken a good deal connected with it, so I would have returned other, not flawed items without being able to get them again for the same - usually reduced - price. Instead the PA's other products were more closely looked when thinking about buying them, which, when they turned also flawed, ended in those PAs ending on a personal "not even for $ 1.99 worth it, and often even not for free" list. Because of their flawed state they were not useful for me.
Maybe this is an area where beta testers are a useful resource. If a PA has beta testers that they can trust to give honest feedback then that widens the opportunity for someone to spot and point out these kind of inaccuracies. That can all happen before the product is submitted to DAZ.
Oh my.. that sounds kinda revolutionary... having ordinary people giving their opinion(s) on works of art...