Game developer licenses
CypherFOX
Posts: 3,401
Greetings,
I'm not seeing myself needing one very soon, but I wanted to see if anyone had some clarity into a few things...
First off, in my day job I make more than the indie license limit, but not as a game developer. It's completely unrelated to game development, in fact. Am I right in thinking that I'm still ineligible for the Indie license and would have to get the full Commercial license if I
Secondly, I notice there's a statement 'All discounts are not applicable to this item', but sometimes there are glitch sales or extra discounts that appear to apply to it, driving SIGNIFICANT discounts in the hundreds of dollars. If I bought at that discount, would I still have to 'true up' to the actual price? In essence it's not like a digital product, you're engaging in a contract, and the question is whether that price statement is part of the contract.
Normally I know that store discounts are usually, 'if you catch a glitch discount, it's okay...' but for something like this, I'd be more hesitant. I'd hate to enter into that kind of agreement incorrectly, and find myself in trouble for it when about to ship a game.
-- Morgan
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Comments
I would assume that the earnings refer to earnings from game development, and that a glitch sale would still apply, but I would say submit a support ticket to confirm.
I am unsure still having bought it
but it WAS in the selection picked for the buy 3 get 65% off when I bought it, there were only a limited number of items and it was one of them.
still not sure about proof though when it comes to making a game, the order number is all I have.
Nevertheless what fixmypcmike wrote would indeed make more sense.
In that case this should be written very clearly that
- everyone is allowed to purchase an indie game license as an entry point
- ONLY when a person makes more than 100'000$ with a game project based on DAZ3D Originals then it would be requrired to purchase the commercial license
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In that case it is still unclear if the indy game license can be returned and exchanged with the commercial license.
OR
If one has to purchase both. First the indy and then the commercial license after the threshold of 100'000 is crossed. :question:
Noone can tell how many units of a game they will sell and how much income they make on a project beforehand.
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The official reaon why people have to pay extra for the game license is to pay a premium for the risk involved to share geometry and textures with other people.
What I suggested was to make the distinction between Indie and Commercial game license based on the VOLUME of the people who get access to the geometry and maps that are shared with "games".
If less than 100'000 games are distributed this means less than 100'000 people have access to the geometry and textures.
Therefore the risk that someone with access to the game will missuse those assets is smaller.
Nevertheless if more than 100'000 games are distributed the risk that one end user is going to missuse the the geometry or textures is higher. Therefore the game developer should pay DAZ or the artist a higher compensation for that additional risk.
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Income does not seem to be the optimal unit for this distinction. You can distribute 100'000 games for only 1$ or you could distribute 1000 games for 100$ both result at the same income of 100'000$.
But in the first case the volume and the risk involved is a lot higher.
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I would be happy if this time someone else could submit a ticket and ask if the interpretation of fixmypcmike or Cypherfox is the one that is intended with the term "income".
I am under the impression it is important for DAZ 3d to see that there are also other people interested in more clear and precise terms and conditions and not just me.
The USD is currently strong, certainly against the GBP and the EUR. That means it will exclude more people (it takes more GBP/EUR to buy that many USD), not include more.
The USD is currently strong, certainly against the GBP and the EUR. That means it will exclude more people (it takes more GBP/EUR to buy that many USD), not include more.
Compared to CHF the US$ is currently weaker once again.
- Some months ago: 100,000 USD was around 105'000 CHF
If someone has an income of 97'000CHF in November that person would not have to buy the commercial license.
- Today in February: 100,000 USD = 96,499.997 CHF
In February the same person has to buy the commercial license.
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- If the difference between indy or commercial license would be set at an income level of 250'000$ there would be a clearer dinstinction between free lance indy game developers and companies.
Either it is a freelance indy game developer who works alone and has an average income of around 50'000 to 250'000$.
or
There is a whole company with several employees that create an income clearly larger than 250'000$.
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How much income do game companies make anyway?
On some internet pages it is stated that games like Call of Duty make 1 Billion $ even on the first day of sales.
They ship millions of units.
But how much do indy game developers make?
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However you look at it "income" may not be the proper measurement of the risk involved that someone will try to access geometry and maps distributed with games.
That is why I propose a distinction between the volume of units distributed.
less than 100'000 units = indy license = lower risk that end user will try to access geometry and maps
more than 100'000 units = commercial license = higher risk that end user will try to acccess geometry and maps
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Well, the CHF is a special case as the central bank has just radically changed policy. $100,000 is not an uncommon level - Allegorithmic just adopted it, having previously used $10,000.
True. But when you are starting to compare with such solutions as Allegorithmic software packs or database licenses you also have to consider that they offer STUDIO licenses and not only personal licenses. With a STUDIO license the whole team can access all content with the purchase of just one license.
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As far as I understand it based on the current DAZ EULA every single member of a studio or company needs to purchase a separate PERSONAL license for each and every software and licensed product and also a separate game license.
Example:
3 member team:
3x Victoria 6 Pro Bundle = 3x 134.95$
3x Commercial Game license = 3x 2500$
Now make that same calculation with 10, 25 team members or even 100.
Or did I interpret that wrong as well?
Are you suggesting that the type of license be based on the number of people who 'purchase' or download the game? That idea doesn't work in today's game industry. A developer of 3D games has to buy a license whether they're selling the game for $20 or giving it away for free. And I speak from experience when I say that there's no real way to keep tabs on a game you gave away. You can try, but ultimately nothing is really going to work. And frankly, when you're giving it away, you wouldn't care how many were downloaded - obviously you hope it's a lot so you know people are playing it, but you don't track exact numbers. You can't, It ends up on every game related website there is.
Also, your proposal opens up developers to being financially responsible for pirated versions. Not cool. As it stands right now you only have to buy a commercial license if you cross an income threshold.
Example1> Developer makes a game, gives it away for free, never gets higher than $100,000. Never has to buy the higher license.
Example2> Developer makes a game, sells it for $10 each, it sells 1000 copies, totaling $10,000. The game was pirated hundreds of thousands of times (because that's going to happen no matter what, so whatever). It never made more than $100,000. You don't have to buy a higher license.
In your scenario not only does a hobby designer have to try to keep track of the free games s/he gave away and then become financially responsible for a free game - But it also makes developers responsible for the inevitability of pirated versions of their own game.
Compared to CHF the US$ is currently weaker once again.
- Some months ago: 100,000 USD was around 105'000 CHF
If someone has an income of 97'000CHF in November that person would not have to buy the commercial license.
- Today in February: 100,000 USD = 96,499.997 CHF
In February the same person has to buy the commercial license.
- - -
- If the difference between indy or commercial license would be set at an income level of 250'000$ there would be a clearer dinstinction between free lance indy game developers and companies.
Either it is a freelance indy game developer who works alone and has an average income of around 50'000 to 250'000$.
or
There is a whole company with several employees that create an income clearly larger than 250'000$.
- - -
How much income do game companies make anyway?
On some internet pages it is stated that games like Call of Duty make 1 Billion $ even on the first day of sales.
They ship millions of units.
But how much do indy game developers make?
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However you look at it "income" may not be the proper measurement of the risk involved that someone will try to access geometry and maps distributed with games.
That is why I propose a distinction between the volume of units distributed.
less than 100'000 units = indy license = lower risk that end user will try to access geometry and maps
more than 100'000 units = commercial license = higher risk that end user will try to acccess geometry and maps
- - -
Basing things purely on units shipped can also be a poor measurement of whether a company is large or small. If you are shipping the 3D assets in a Android and/or IOS phone/tablet app, with the app being free, as most are these days, you very quickly get to 100,000 downloads. This type of app, which are very popular on the app stores, will make its money from in app sales and advertising, and although it depends on many different factors, for most apps they would be earning less than 100,000$ from those 100,000 units. On that basis, income generated by the app is a better measurement than the volume shipped.
Greetings,
As odd as it may seem to folks with strong opinions on either side, I'm actually okay with it whatever direction they take, I just want clarity.
I'm comfortable with the assertion that if one makes over $100K even in personal non-game-related income, then they are expected to be comfortable putting down $2500 (modulo discounts) for a license to produce an actual game, even if that game doesn't particularly make money. It would make my personal hurdle to distributing (note the specificity!) a game a lot higher, but that's okay.
I don't want to CHANGE the way DAZ does its business, I want to KNOW. I'm happy to file a ticket and ask about it, I was just hoping that someone else already had and had gotten a clear answer on the subject.
-- Morgan
I only want to know the "proof" side of things when challenged making a game myself
and mine would be just a give away to small number of people only anyway, only wanted permission to do so
on my wage no danger of coming even halfway close
@ Havos and MegonNoel
Very valid points.
I can see now that using volumes with distributed units as measurment would have some practical issues and unwanted side effects.
+1 on that
Sometimes practical examples go a long way to explain the customers what the intention of the EULA is and how it is applied in everyday circumstances.
Maybe a section about the EULA on the official FAQ / Help page by DAZ would help. It could list questions customer ask in forum threads like this and then posts the official answer by DAZ for everyone to read.
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Hey Wendy :)
I've seen you ask about this a couple of times and I'm not quite sure what it is you need. I'm not a lawyer and I certainly can't speak for DAZ, but as I understand it the game dev license is basically you buying permission from DAZ to use their assets in 3D games. So imagine that you put out a game (free or otherwise) and a year from now DAZ says, "Hey do you have a license for that?" you can show them an order number and then they know you do. It's permission from DAZ, and in a copyright or licensing dispute DAZ would be who you would need to prove you have the license to.
I'm not saying other companies (like distributors or someone hosting a contest) won't ever want some kind of proof at some point, but for the most part making sure you have proper licensing is solely up to you and you would be the one held responsible. While I agree that some sort of extra information or additional licensing info would be great, ultimately all of that info is in the EULA right now, and you have a receipt proving you bought the license which that part of the EULA pertains to. Is there someone asking you for additional proof of some sort?
I only am asking because Youtube often asks for proof for 2D video render content which is clearly defined and EULA links and order numbers have not sufficed in some cases and the video could not be monetised
I am having an ongoing issue with them and claims I am using game footage..
Thanks for that info of Allegorithmic - I have just bought their Substance Designer, indy version and was a bit worry about their $10,000
limit. The $100,000 limit is fine for me and can only dream to exceed it.
edit / update:
- removed an explanation about youtube claim policies in order to focus on the main question of this topic.
Since this topic did not receive an update for 10 days I also submitted a ticket on February 25, 2015 asking the question:
Is the official intended interpretation of “Personal or Business income” to mean only that income that is generated by projects that are covered by the Game license?
I received a quick answer on the same day: