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...still doesn't explain why there should be such differences.
So who was the PA who originally created Josie if it wasn't Daz and why does his/her name not appear alongside "Daz Originals" in the credits like for other "Daz Original" buyouts?
1) Check the previous parts of this thread as it explains there are differences in the UVs in the facial areas, breasts, etc.
2) Buyouts do not necessarily have to have their names listed. But this is thorne's distinctive style, just like the young teens in Genesis 1.
...makes sense about Josie as I thought there she had a slight resemblance to the V4 Tommi character.
Still, are the differences so great that skin maps based on the G2F UV will not work properly? If so, then why do most of the character maps in the Pro bundles for these figures use the G2F UV and not the "unique" one?
Apologies, but it just frustrates me a bit after waiting years for something like the Geisha set, to discover I have to buy another character figure I would rarely use just so I can use the skin maps.
I'm guessing there's several types of buyers on the site: Those that buy characters for the characters and those that buy characters for just the skins. If you don't care about the fact that 1) UVs are optimized for that particular characters despite minor differences so people can't see the minor stretching and 2) PAs that make textures specifically for that UV for their characters as a package, then I can kind of see your issue. But it's a no win situation because I remember with G1, and opposite thread popped up because a good chunk of the Genesis characters did not use ANY of Genesis' UVs... they used V4 and M4 and stretched badly in some areas and people jumped in demanding PAs make their textures using native Genesis UVs.
So though there may be a lot of UVs, because some people don't buy all the characters, I can see where different UVs can be made so that buying a character with their texture wouldn't require the purchase of a separate character, such as someone buying an Olympia character but it would require them having V6 in order to use the texture. But I also get from the tone of the thread that some really don't care about the effort the PAs make to design a product based on a character and that UV because all the really want is the skin off of it to use for their items and the fact that there are optimized UVs are keeping those people from just pulling the skin and using it on a different character that they won't buy. Maybe a reduced cost UV could be offered or if people don't care about minor stretching a common UV could be used; however I can see if this is done, another thread would pop up noting stretching because everything now uses the same UV as it did in G1.
Fantastic post!!!! I qualify as the type of person who cares about skin textures, morphed characters mean almost nothing to me. I've always wondered why the emphasis on "characters" when we have the ability to morph the figures into any shape we desire. Just because a morph is released as a character doesn't impress me.
What does impress me however, is an attractive skin map. If ever I am purchasing a character it is for the skins, never the character itself.
Now the issue of stretching that people have been explaining as the reason for all the many morphs, just points to how necessary a more uniform resolution that better handles a little stretch here and there. Because of morphs no one should be expecting textures they create not to eventually be pushed into areas outside the initial comfort range.
Say for instance you want to make a nice fat person, really fat, not just a few pounds overweight. No matter WHAT character skin you use, it is going to get stretched out. Knowing that there is a heavy morph included with most Daz figures, it would seem obvious to me that skin makers would at least be interested in seeing how their skin intended for skinny people might look on a fat person. You'd think they'd want to add details to areas where the stretching would be most obvious.
Seems by what you guys are saying I should have to create a custom character from the start, with a custom UV designed for fatter people. Hmm, no such things exist currently, so I have no choice but to use the skins available for my fatty.
If the skin maps were more uniform in resolution, they would allow much more morphing. Because right now, I know of no manner to even begin to make a skin texture for a heavier person, which means the current UV system is too limited. I think it is time for a big change.
Sad though the attempt will be, I am going to try my own customer remap of Genesis 1. I think Genesis 1 is better because it allows for a ton more morphing and should demonstrate how much better it all looks when we emphasize more than just the face. IT will take me plenty of time so don;t hold your breath, but I am indeed going to try. I will even create a few skin maps for people to test them out. Later folks.
with HD morphs and sculpting subdivided mesh I wonder if painting morphed skins is ever done
like your fatties Rashad
a line of fleshy skins that are distorted tightly when unmorphed and stretch into an even mat may well sell too
...I have to agree with belovedalia on this.
The versatility of the "Genesis" concept has pretty much been tossed out the window.
I'll give G2 this much in that, yes, a slightly different mesh structure is needed for male and female physique. Fine, I can live with that. However, to take away what is left of the versatility within each gender line by making skins, morphs, and even poses exclusive to a specific figure, makes the idea of a versatile base figure moot. We may as well go back to totally unique figures like we had with Gen3. Each with their own map, shape, hair, and wardrobe.
Not counting the base G2F we have ten different female figures nine of which are each unique to themselves, with yet another on the way (Belle), and they still haven't got to the kids yet. Why couldn't some of these "characters" have just been based off the existing figures like Vicky, Aiko or Steph as in the past? For example did we really need Giselle as a "unique" figure of her own when there is the Slender Stephanie morph for Steph6 which is perfect for creating lithe fey characters (and even promoted as so)? There are already a number of morph kits available for just for G2F and Vicky alone that can pretty much be used to create, or at the very least come very close to, several of these "new" figures. It just takes a little more morph work.
Personally I'd rather see more morph resource kits and skins for the base G2 figure.
If this is going to be the trend from now on, then maybe Daz or someone needs to create and market a UV conversion plugin that allows us to convert skins from one UV to another without having to try and figure out how to do so on our own.
I think the interesting point in this is that if a vendor makes something like this and sell it on their own, fewer people would buy it. They make it and sell it to DAZ, then the wallets open up because they think it came from DAZ. A lot of these comments I see in the forum is people want DAZ to make specific types of characters that have already been made in some form by PAs: thin, muscle, obese, kids.. and people skip over those PA products and ask DAZ to create them. Sometimes it pays to look in the store for those products, and sometimes those can be used a base to make what you want.
Map transfer is already included in DAZ Studio. You still have to own both figures to transfer skins between.
I suspect much of the reason people request Daz Originals is for the Platinum Club pricing discount. Daz Originals are simply less expensive. Further, they are usually on some type of sale so you never feel like you're paying full price.
There are also some types of items people feel Daz should be making in good faith, such as things that are required to make the figures even useful at all, like base morphs and textures. There are often tools that vendors create such as GenX that it would seem Daz should have created, but didn't. Not that I'm not glad someone did, but it just always seemed to me that Daz missed the boat on that one a bit and thankfully a vendor stepped in.
Many people like to keep it official, they want some guarantee that the products are fully compatible. If you buy morphs from a vendor that don't work you will be annoyed sure, but if it is a Daz Original you will be even more vexed because unlike a single vendor Daz3d should have the resources to ensure a product works perfectly before it is shipped. Its much easier to hold Daz3d accountable.
All models sold at Daz seem to be excellent in quality to me, so there is nothing intended as a slight to vendors. Most of what I buy lately is from vendors because they are doing much more interesting things than Daz Originals are lately.
I'll agree GenX was a missed opportunity, however the tech is in DS's transfer tool where you don't need GenX. If you know how to work that tool, GenX is really more of a convenience product now. However, DAZ's job is really to provide the base items and PAs expand upon it with products.
Rashad Carter and Male-M3dia pretty much explained my customer mentality here at DAZ to a "T". Trust me when I say I LOVE all the PA's I invest in like Fisty, FWArt, Thorne, Sarsa, Xena, etc, especially all the vendors that produce the backwards support that DAZ themselves won't provide like SickleYeild and Slosh. But, I DO prefer to invest in "DAZ Originals" over anything first because of the sense of officialism and discount opportunities that I know will come with them. Not only that, but as mentioned, any product that is bought-out to DAZ feels more reassuring to purchase under the notion that all rough spots are worked-out that one would otherwise see in a direct PA release. Not to sound malicious or anything, but I always feel less guilty complaining about a DO to DAZ directly than a PA product to a vendor that I have huge respect for.
So, if I'm someone who's openly doing this, there are definitely others who are acting in the same fashion.
That's exactly what I'm saying! Take note, Richard et al: Skins that show stretch like skins! would be more than welcome. Just find the places most likely to distend, and paint the stretch-marks there.
...RCDeschene.
...I'm in that me category.
Male-M3dia
...yes there are tools in Daz to effectively do what GenX does but they involve a more complex workflow and thus are difficult to use properly for many here whereas a plugin like GenX brings the process together in a more "intuitive" package.
As to PAs "picking up the slack", the V4/M4 autofit/UV clones for G2 are a good example of this as is the V4 Skins Auto Converter (a similar tool for M4 has yet to be released). Both of these functions were integrated with Genesis "classic" but dropped with the rollout of G2. In the past, Daz offered the legacy body shapes for Genesis at a reasonable price (each also including an autofit clone and in the case of Gen4, a UV map). Now it's been left up to PAs to provide these. So far the only "legacy" clones we have (and apparently will ever have) are the V4/M4 ones (no A3, no K4, no F4, etc.), thus reducing G2s versatility compared to it's predecessor. True,one can attempt to create an autofit clone for the other figures, but again, this is very complex process for many to undertake. I tried to follow the various tutorials on clone creation but with no success as it seemed there was always a step or two that was missing which I was expected to already know.
This is why many of us need tools and plugins like GenX, figure shape clones for Autofit, and now, some way to convert UV maps (basically a "CrossDresser" for skins). The latter may not give "perfect" 100% results (however, as has already been discussed, the skin maps for the Daz figures are no where near 100% "perfect" anyway as they still stretch unnaturally during posing and morphing), but if it does the job well enough to meet our needs, that is all it has to do.
If we want the "perfect body" we have to be ready to pay a hefty price for it, either in financial resources, our own time, or both. However, most of us here are hobbyists using hobbyist grade software and doing this in our spare time, not professional CG artists working in the film industry or at an ad agency with expensive commercial or custom written high end applications, so we have to make do the best with what we have available to us. If I can create a scene that tells the story I want it to and that reaches out to those who view it, using an "imperfect" Genesis/G2 to do so, then I'm fine with that.
I can hear that evoking the challenging response of something to the effect of "well, if that's the case, there's no reason to shell out that much effort for such extra support now, is there?"
...I don't see it that way, considering the programmes we have and can afford are not capable of doing or handling what the pro grade stuff can.
There would be little advantage to loading a totally photo realistic human figure costing hundreds to over 1,000$ on our software even with an unbiased render engine like Octane or Lux, (which require a fair amount of surface modification/convesion), you would be wasting your money.
1) The M4 skin converter has been available for sometime.
2) If you saved your converted clothing with the clones in Genesis 1, you do not need more clones for G2. Save your clothing and autofit them over. If you concerned about your budget, this is by far a redundant purchase. And not making these items every generation frees DAZ up to work on other things. There are a lot more buyers that have came in way after Gen3, so it may not have been all that feasible to make them again, hence a PA stepped in to do the work. Also I think it was a good move to not make the Gen4 UV free and provided V5, M5, G2F and G2M UVs as the default as it moved everyone on to UVs made for lower polygon characters, instead of still using V4 and M4 textures that caused a lot of stretching.. especially when they textured on the Gen4 models, not Genesis.
..all right, picked up the Geisha bundle while it was on sale (using my PC coupon and the remainder of a GC) as it was still a bargain Everything including the poses work (see attached pic) except for the Geisha Makeup textures. When I try to load them on a G2F figure I get an error that Daz cannot find the Mei Lin geometry so therefore the maps wouldn't even load. As it is part of a bundle purchase that I used my PC coupon and a GC on I am not sure I can return just the Geisha makeup. Not about to drop 23$ on a character figure just to use the makeups.
Seems DragonStorm's Geisha Builder would be the better option as it works on both Genesis and G2F and thus would see more use (and is one 40% off if you have one of today's new items in the cart which I already do).
Yeah this multiple UV map issue is really going to make this more expensive.and hard on us who have extremely tight budgets.
KK
I doubt you can return only the make up product if it was part of a bundle. Especially since most bundles are priced lower than if you purchased the items separately. You'd likely have to return the whole order and rebuy the items you want (clothing and poses).
You could try apply the make up manually to a G2F and saving as new preset.
The difficulty people are having should be solved instantly by DAZ, and very easily. If a character requires a different UV set to the default for the base figure, then that UV set should be provided with the character. There are ways to do this in both Poser and DAZ studio and they work well in both packages. Problem solved. A less customer-friendly alternative would be to just make all the UV sets available for free download; this would be more complicated for the customer as they would have to work out which one to use, but it would solve the problem.
Of course if the real attitude is "milk the customer" then this won't happen. If DAZ want to provide good value, then it will.
I second that.
I second that.
That's how it's already set up. V6 has a UV, Olympia has a UV, Mei Lin has her UV. The issue began because someone wanted to buy a character texture made for Mei Lin, but didn't want to buy the Mei Lin character to get the UV.
That's how it's already set up. V6 has a UV, Olympia has a UV, Mei Lin has her UV. The issue began because someone wanted to buy a character texture made for Mei Lin, but didn't want to buy the Mei Lin character to get the UV.
I think what Fire Angel means is that the unique UV set should be included with character (aka texture) package. That way if someone buys a product for Mei Lin, they would get the UV set for Mei Lin without having to invest in Mei Lin.
That's how it's already set up. V6 has a UV, Olympia has a UV, Mei Lin has her UV. The issue began because someone wanted to buy a character texture made for Mei Lin, but didn't want to buy the Mei Lin character to get the UV.
I think what Fire Angel means is that the unique UV set should be included with character (aka texture) package. That way if someone buys a product for Mei Lin, they would get the UV set for Mei Lin without having to invest in Mei Lin.
Mei Lin is the character, the character set is the accessory for that character. Most every product available in different hobbies you have to buy the main part to have the accessory. The main character is the investment, not the accessory.
I think what Fire Angel means is that the unique UV set should be included with character (aka texture) package. That way if someone buys a product for Mei Lin, they would get the UV set for Mei Lin without having to invest in Mei Lin.
Mei Lin is the character, the character set is the accessory for that character. Most every product available in different hobbies you have to buy the main part to have the accessory. The main character is the investment, not the accessory.
Surely the main character is Genesis 2 - Mei Lin is an add on for that figure.
I think what Fire Angel means is that the unique UV set should be included with character (aka texture) package. That way if someone buys a product for Mei Lin, they would get the UV set for Mei Lin without having to invest in Mei Lin.
Mei Lin is the character, the character set is the accessory for that character. Most every product available in different hobbies you have to buy the main part to have the accessory. The main character is the investment, not the accessory.
Surely the main character is Genesis 2 - Mei Lin is an add on for that figure.
No, Genesis is a system for making characters. G2F is the base mesh, Mei Lin and V6 are characters with adjusted rigging and a unique UV. Pa products for those characters are the accessories.
Mei Lin is the character, the character set is the accessory for that character. Most every product available in different hobbies you have to buy the main part to have the accessory. The main character is the investment, not the accessory.
Surely the main character is Genesis 2 - Mei Lin is an add on for that figure.
No, Genesis is a system for making characters. G2F is the base mesh, Mei Lin and V6 are characters with adjusted rigging and a unique UV. Pa products for those characters are the accessories.
As a Customer and the one spending the money I see it differently.
I would suggest then looking at the technology page as it explains what Genesis is. The premise of what is Genesis hasn't really changed in over four years. As a customer you should know what tech you have been buying.
I would suggest then looking at the technology page as it explains what Genesis is. The premise of what is Genesis hasn't really changed in over four years. As a customer you should know what tech you have been buying.
You're the one who should stop what you're doing; playing with semantics. If someone buys a character for the Genesis 2 female figure they should get everything they need to use that in the package, except the base figure. Uvs are different? Put them in the package.
If you disagree fine, but pretending that others don't know what they are on about when it is quite clear that they do is ridiculous.
I'm not playing with semantics. This information is freely available on the technology page and has been for years. Genesis is a system for making characters with their own rigging and UVs, not a bunch of morphs which is causing the confusion. Whether you disagree with that doesn't change what Genesis really is.
http://www.daz3d.com/daz_tech
It's up to you what characters you want to add to your personal genesis gene pool. If you don't want to invest in the Mei Lin character, then her accessories should not be available to your gene pool.
Actually this is essentially a semantic argument, so please drop it. There is plenty of room for discussion, and there are plenty of valid views of the situation, without getting bogged down in the precise nature of the various base characters.
In the early days of Genesis DAZ used the term Gene Pool to refer to new major full body morph shapes for the base but it didn't seem to stick. We do need an official term for these to clear up confusion, might I suggest Ancillary Figure.
:(
What about those of us that:
A.) Invested in the Add-on characters for their specialized UVs/Textures, morphs, poses, clothing and expressions whether through the Starter or Pro Bundles and
B.) Are not on THAT tight of a budget to afford this type of luxury hobby
While I do see and agree that a few/several female characters could have used the base/V5 UV map, I still prefer drastic shape-changing characters to have their own UV map like others on this thread.
Just adding my thoughts - don't bite me... ;)