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Forgotten Kids

WolpiWolpi Posts: 323
edited December 1969 in The Commons

Since long ago there seems to be created nothing new for the Kids, not to mention the development of themselves.
Are the kids end-of-range models?

«13

Comments

  • Herald of FireHerald of Fire Posts: 3,505
    edited December 1969

    Kids are adorable, but sadly they're generally not very good for sales. Since the release of K4 there haven't really been any 'official' kids figures unless you count the Basic Child morph for Genesis, which went entirely unsupported as a base. We have had a few nice kids characters pop up though, namely Sisters and Brothers for Zev0's Growing Up morphs for Genesis 2. Also, more recently Aave released a gorgeous kid-friendly dress which included specific child poses and 'drape morphs' for use with the kids.

    Kids will always be a difficult one to tackle. PA's want to spend their time on products which will sell, and the lion's share is in adult products; females especially. As much as we'd love to deny it, there's a huge amount of truth in the saying 'sex sells', and scantily clad women dominate the market. Kids on the other hand are quite restrictive in the sort of content you can use them in. After all, can you imagine the uproar there would be if kids were on the streets of Liberty City in GTA 5? It's one thing to plow a car through a horde of adult shoppers, but quite another if the victim is a rugrat.

    Because of those restrictions, less people use kids in their works and that translates to fewer sales for kids items. Fewer sales, means fewer PA's are going to take a gamble on making items for them. It's why I rejoice when I see people supporting them in their works, and why I try to grab as many kids items as I can find, wherever they might be.

    One day I *will* have a wardrobe for the little ones which rivals the adults. Even if I have to make the outfits myself!

  • MistaraMistara Posts: 38,675
    edited December 1969

    it might be a question of demographics with spending power.

    (i'm in the tums demographic.) ;)


    There's the genesis Kid, all the gn clothes should autofit.

    what kind of stuff do you want for the kid?

  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,414
    edited December 1969

    I kind of agree with HeraldOfFire. Aside from everything outlined above about the scenes rendered with vs without younger ones. It's also a what will they say bit as well. "O" my god, you have kids in that program of yours, you (pick a word).

    I've shied away from kid figure purchases, simply because of the fear of what accusations I would receive for simply having them in my Content Library. I want to have fun with Daz Studio, not be worrying about what others would think. So I imaging the PA's also have similar fears as well, and I don't blame them.

    Tho, I did get FWSA Aiyana, simply to use the tats on another figure, so I guess I already crossed that line. :ohh:

  • cecilia.robinsoncecilia.robinson Posts: 2,208
    edited October 2014

    Kids are unsupported. This must change! Aave does great job (hopefully she will participate in this year's Christmas giveaway, her T-Shirt Dress is gorgeous). Mada has a cute Daydream Dress with sandals. There are some sweet freebies. I support Genesis kids with my products. But generally speaking children are scarce in 3D. 3DUniverse is a PA one can count on though. And P3Design made an awesome K4 morph I am trying to transfer onto Genesis. She is called Lizzy.

    The situation with Genesis is better un terms of clothes and hairstyles. It can use anything on any shape, so the priority seems to be morphs. Agreed?

    HeraldOfFire said:
    After all, can you imagine the uproar there would be if kids were on the streets of Liberty City in GTA 5? It's one thing to plow a car through a horde of adult shoppers, but quite another if the victim is a rugrat.

    Oh, really? Take a single modding site and browse a bit.

    Post edited by cecilia.robinson on
  • CypherFOXCypherFOX Posts: 3,401
    edited December 1969

    Greetings,

    cecilia.robinson said:
    HeraldOfFire said:
    After all, can you imagine the uproar there would be if kids were on the streets of Liberty City in GTA 5? It's one thing to plow a car through a horde of adult shoppers, but quite another if the victim is a rugrat.

    Oh, really? Take a single modding site and browse a bit.Well...there's mods, and then there's canon. Doing that in a mod gets you attention, doing that in canon gets you fired. See what I did there? ;)

    -- Morgan

  • GallCommTVGallCommTV Posts: 239
    edited December 1969

    cecilia.robinson said:
    Kids are unsupported. This must change! Aave does great job (hopefully she will participate in this year's Christmas giveaway, her T-Shirt Dress is gorgeous). Mada has a cute Daydream Dress with sandals. There are some sweet freebies. I support Genesis kids with my products. But generally speaking children are scarce in 3D. 3DUniverse is a PA one can count on though. And P3Design made an awesome K4 morph I am trying to transfer onto Genesis. She is called Lizzy.

    The situation with Genesis is better un terms of clothes and hairstyles. It can use anything on any shape, so the priority seems to be morphs. Agreed?.


    KIDS RULE!...... err ...:lol:
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  • NovicaNovica Posts: 23,925
    edited October 2014

    With those products that were mentioned, you get some adorable kids!
    The Kids seem disproportionate to me. Never thought they looked even remotely realistic.

    Edit: for example, this kid has no upper body. Waist is way too high. If you look at the third thumbnail, with a head that size, the waist would need to be lowered. There should be about two heads to the waist, that Kid is about one and a fourth.

    http://www.daz3d.com/kids-4-ring-bearer

    http://www.google.com/imgres?imgrefurl=http://www.realcolorwheel.com/human.htm&tbnid=PTzNXWh1OxWiAM:&docid=1wMIcMk3rZO61M&h=2003&w=854

    Post edited by Novica on
  • SloshSlosh Posts: 2,391
    edited December 1969

    Just want to add that Casual Romper for Genesis 2 Females also has a morph for Zev's Growing Up morph. As long as the outfit I am making is age appropriate, I will try to include youth morphs. Also, Teen Josie is considered a youth character, and most if not all vendors have been including her shape in their outfits, when appropriate.

  • Herald of FireHerald of Fire Posts: 3,505
    edited October 2014

    Slosh said:
    Just want to add that Casual Romper for Genesis 2 Females also has a morph for Zev's Growing Up morph. As long as the outfit I am making is age appropriate, I will try to include youth morphs. Also, Teen Josie is considered a youth character, and most if not all vendors have been including her shape in their outfits, when appropriate.Yeah, there are a few great exceptions to the rule, and as mentioned I always snap them up when I see them because of their rarity. The romper is just too perfect for kids, so it went into the basket the instant I saw it.

    The situation with Genesis is better in terms of clothes and hairstyles. It can use anything on any shape, so the priority seems to be morphs. Agreed?

    Mostly, though you obviously don't want youth morphs on string bikini's or similar outfits. However, when the item is suitable for kids, child morphs go a long way to securing a sale from me at least. There are still very few dresses which work well with children, and many have a more revealing neckline.

    There's also relatively few skins which work well for youths, male skins especially. I understand the difficulty in making them though. Removing all trace of body hair on an adult male is never going to be an easy task, and photographing youths for the texture is out of the question. What you're generally left with is a skin which seems more fitting for a mid-teen rather than anything younger. And as much as I love the Brothers set for Genesis 2, even that skin suffers a bit from the same problem.

    Mada's Daydream Dress is still a firm favourite of mine. It auto converts beautifully to Genesis 2, looks great on young figures and is suitably modest. I'm sure I've lost count of how often I used it, and I rank it among my favourite purchases of all time. I recommend it to anyone looking for Genesis childrens outfits, as it was clearly designed with them in mind.

    Post edited by Herald of Fire on
  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 42,017
    edited December 1969

    HeraldOfFire said:
    Kids are adorable, but sadly they're generally not very good for sales. Since the release of K4 there haven't really been any 'official' kids figures unless you count the Basic Child morph for Genesis, which went entirely unsupported as a base. We have had a few nice kids characters pop up though, namely Sisters and Brothers for Zev0's Growing Up morphs for Genesis 2. Also, more recently Aave released a gorgeous kid-friendly dress which included specific child poses and 'drape morphs' for use with the kids.

    Kids will always be a difficult one to tackle. PA's want to spend their time on products which will sell, and the lion's share is in adult products; females especially. As much as we'd love to deny it, there's a huge amount of truth in the saying 'sex sells', and scantily clad women dominate the market. Kids on the other hand are quite restrictive in the sort of content you can use them in. After all, can you imagine the uproar there would be if kids were on the streets of Liberty City in GTA 5? It's one thing to plow a car through a horde of adult shoppers, but quite another if the victim is a rugrat.

    Because of those restrictions, less people use kids in their works and that translates to fewer sales for kids items. Fewer sales, means fewer PA's are going to take a gamble on making items for them. It's why I rejoice when I see people supporting them in their works, and why I try to grab as many kids items as I can find, wherever they might be.
    ...which for my work is a real pain, even preteens/teens are kind of slighted. For example Daz recently released NPMs for Olympia (a pinup/heroic fantasy doll) but not for Teen Josie, who would really benefit from them as using the normal breast sizing sliders tends to result in deformation of the breast/aureola mesh when dialed down past a certain point. These distortions to the breast mesh translate to any upper body clothing fits.

    One day I *will* have a wardrobe for the little ones which rivals the adults. Even if I have to make the outfits myself!


    ...I've said that myself, but in truth, modelling is definitely not my strong point as a good stable 64 bit application is out of my budget (and don't even bring up Blender until they totally revamp it's UI and bring it out of the "dark ages").
  • Herald of FireHerald of Fire Posts: 3,505
    edited October 2014

    Kyoto Kid said:
    One day I *will* have a wardrobe for the little ones which rivals the adults. Even if I have to make the outfits myself!

    ...I've said that myself, but in truth, modelling is definitely not my strong point as a good stable 64 bit application is out of my budget (and don't even bring up Blender until they totally revamp it's UI and bring it out of the "dark ages").I'm actually already working on a few. The dress itself is almost complete and just awaits a few fixes, but the uniform is taking a lot longer as it has more pieces to worry about. The main stumbling block is textures, because if truth be known I'm absolutely terrible at it. I've been using procedurals for the meantime.
    Post edited by Herald of Fire on
  • WolpiWolpi Posts: 323
    edited December 1969

    Really nice I could launch an interesting discussion with my topic. Thank you all for your open-hearted statements and hints. Eventually I should give the genesis kids more attention but assumely their options are much more limited than working with K4. Morphing Victoria would be more auspicious.
    No, I really can't complain. I just regret that the sector seems to stagnate since one or two years.
    No, I'm really contented with my bunch of kids. All we can do is to make them popular and attracting to a growing number of people and it seems I'm on that way.
    Meanwhile I created umpteen unique characters, lifelike and various in appearance of shape, skin, outfit and activities. But with my hundredth it will get difficult to dress them differently.
    I don't get each single word you said but I got the touch of apprehension what you mean with restrictions. But isn't this an artificial space? Art and restrictions don't go together well. For me it's always a challenge to walk along the borderlines as the real kids do also. :)

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 42,017
    edited October 2014

    ...interesting that you mention Vicky4. Back in '08 a number of us embarked on what we called the "Li'l Vicky Challenge"to create a child character off of V4. This was well before the Kr\4 figure.

    Here as my entry, an 8 year old version of my character Leela from the story I was working on. At the time I only had V4 and Thorne/Sarsa''s Tommi character to work with. Clothing fits were a real pain as there was no kids clothing (or even much teen clothing for that fact) for available Gen4 at the time and m\the process required a fair amount of manual adjustment and use of DFormers.

    I ended up using Jeanz for V4 with the shorts morph, the shirt from Miss Deanna J with the sleeves turned off, and the sneakers from Teen Ashley. The baseball cap was a freebie.

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    Post edited by kyoto kid on
  • Herald of FireHerald of Fire Posts: 3,505
    edited December 1969

    Wolpi said:
    Really nice I could launch an interesting discussion with my topic. Thank you all for your open-hearted statements and hints. Eventually I should give the genesis kids more attention but assumely their options are much more limited than working with K4.On the contrary, working with Genesis has distinct advantages over using K4. Firstly, Genesis is compatible with K4 skins, so you can use a lot of the older content. It also includes an autofit for the outfits, which works wonders for the most part, though dresses are still a pain.

    You also have the advantage of the 'one size fits all' Genesis clothing. Jeans, Tee's and other items will fit your rugrats well enough, and as mentioned there are additional products which can help out in that area. I tend to use Genesis 2 for a lot of my tots these days, and I've developed some K4 UV's and an autofit clone to allow me to use a lot of older content. I've also redeveloped the Regency Dress for K4 to fit the G2F youth.

    I don’t get each single word you said but I got the touch of apprehension what you mean with restrictions. But isn’t this an artificial space? Art and restrictions don’t go together well. For me it’s always a challenge to walk along the borderlines as the real kids do also.

    True, but since these are children there are some borders which should never be crossed. Anything with nudity and sexual content is an obvious one, but it can also extend to extreme peril or even death. Video games and movies even have to cover their bases with very strict restrictions on what situations they can put their child characters into, which is why many avoid it altogether and stick to adults only. If something bad happens to a child it's almost always off-screen, or they're transformed so much it's harder to distinguish it as a child. There's just way too many boundaries to sneak things past censors, and with good reason.

    Considering that pin-ups seem to account for the majority of images I see made with Daz on DeviantArt, it's really no surprise to me that ladieswear and adult female figures are the top selling items in the Daz store.

  • WolpiWolpi Posts: 323
    edited December 1969

    Wooow, Kyoto Kid, artworks like this one make conscious to me my weak points of imaging: light and shadows. But I'm specialized into natural lifelike tweens and their nature, their special kind to experience the world. All the trials to show genesis or vicky as kids are interesting in several aspects, but they always carry the touch of teens or adults.
    Using Genesis or Victoria in order to profit of more interesting clothing would mean to abandon on the typical kids' appearance and expression. So I prefer to wait for new kids' outfit or ways to apply adults' clothing somehow.

  • DogzDogz Posts: 912
    edited October 2014

    I usually support kid morphs in the clothing since most of the clothing I do is of the more family friendly variety.
    I supported the Basic Child for G1 and I'll keep supporting Zevo's Youth morph where appropriate. But yeah, the prospect of doing anything exclusively for kids is not too enticing.
    For the record I really like Zev0s Youth morph- although one nit-pick is I wish it had independent head and body dials, since the face it dials in has rather strong features - which makes it a tricky base to dial other face morphs over. The handy thing about Basic Child for G1 was that it did not affect the face as much.

    Shameless teaser here, but my next product although primarily designed for adults is also kid friendly.

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    Post edited by Dogz on
  • NovicaNovica Posts: 23,925
    edited December 1969

    Nice render Dogz. :)

  • DogzDogz Posts: 912
    edited October 2014

    Thanks, the girls face on the right is actually the 'Melissa Blue' shape for Laura3 (by Thorne), was happy to be able to dust this one off thanks to GenerationX,

    Post edited by Dogz on
  • WolpiWolpi Posts: 323
    edited December 1969

    I like that one on the left: it really makes me feel and shiver with her

  • ZarconDeeGrissomZarconDeeGrissom Posts: 5,414
    edited October 2014

    kitten on the pedestal, nice Kyoto Kid.

    O.K idle question, how much is morphing out of the question, considering morphs can be saved many ways.

    I was thinking of compiling a short list of potential figures, tho that might be misconstrued. Like Gisselle 6 as a starting point. If the likes of FWSA Aiyana, "FW Ash", "FWSA Siblings", "FW Ashley", etc, are insufficient.

    As for cloths, must we dwell on as some one put it, "strings for outfits", when there really is so much more at the daz3d store.
    http://www.daz3d.com/teen-jayden-6-pro-bundle
    http://www.daz3d.com/teen-josie-6-pro-bundle
    That is a good collection of cloths at least to start with.

    "O" and I bet the wilmap dresses and stuff collection would look good on them as well.
    http://www.wilmapsdigitalcreations.co.uk/
    http://www.sharecg.com/Wilmap

    (EDIT)
    Nice preview Dogz, I already have ideas on that one, I just need to find some rain that dose not require Photoshop.

    Post edited by ZarconDeeGrissom on
  • KeryaKerya Posts: 10,943
    edited December 1969

    zarcondeegrissom said:
    ..., I just need to find some rain that dose not require Photoshop.

    http://www.daz3d.com/nerd3d/rain-tool

    For free - search Runtimedna.com for Atmospherics Rain (they are 3D)

    Summer Rain
    Credits:
    Modualz Atmospherics Rain - Judith, Traveler
    Liquid shaders (puddle) - Fisty
    Ripples - EnglishBob
    Aiko5, Julie, Stephanie5 - Daz
    Ayumi - MickyBel
    Nyu for Aiko 5 (Texture) - DemonicaEvilius, Silver
    Sadie (Dress) - 3D Universe
    Sparkles for Studio - Fisty
    Boots for Genesis - Ravenhair
    Gummy Girl Mats - jakiblue
    Minnie Bow Hair - goldtassel
    Colors for Minnie Bow Hair - goldtassel
    Yamaki Victory Lane (Umbrella) - Ravnheart
    DLD Leather Shaders for DAZ Studio - Digital Lite Design
    Songbird ReMix European Edition 2 - Ken Gilliland
    MilCat Classic Cats 2 - Lisa's Botanicals, LaurieS
    Marrakesh Souks 2012 - Jack Tomalin
    Core Lighting 2 (modified) - Lantios

    SummerRain.jpg
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  • Zev0Zev0 Posts: 7,123
    edited December 1969

    I myself am busy on a few side projects for Growing Up. Also, I will look into updating the product by adding a head neutralizer for the youth morph.

  • DogzDogz Posts: 912
    edited December 1969

    Really? Wow, awesome! looking forward to it Zev.^ :)

  • Zev0Zev0 Posts: 7,123
    edited December 1969

    Yes, they will be character packs similar to the sisters and brothers Products.

  • cecilia.robinsoncecilia.robinson Posts: 2,208
    edited December 1969

    Dogz, the clothes look awesome. Is Genesis supported? I hope so.

    Novica said:
    With those products that were mentioned, you get some adorable kids!
    The Kids seem disproportionate to me. Never thought they looked even remotely realistic.

    The basic K4 - yep, but there are custom morphs that are fine to me.

    http://www.daz3d.com/children/jamika-for-k4
    http://www.daz3d.com/children/kaitey-for-kids-4
    http://www.daz3d.com/children/hollie-for-k4
    http://www.daz3d.com/children/jade-for-the-kids-4
    http://www.daz3d.com/children/josi-for-kids-4
    http://www.daz3d.com/children/tayisha-for-k4
    http://www.daz3d.com/children/eliza-for-k4
    http://www.daz3d.com/children/kaelyn-for-kids-4
    http://www.daz3d.com/children/children-of-the-world

    There is more diversity than in adult models.

    Wolpi said:
    All the trials to show genesis or vicky as kids are interesting in several aspects, but they always carry the touch of teens or adults.
    Using Genesis or Victoria in order to profit of more interesting clothing would mean to abandon on the typical kids' appearance and expression. So I prefer to wait for new kids' outfit or ways to apply adults' clothing somehow.

    Well, I found a getaround for most kiddies. I apply some Young Teens morphs and the shape instantly gets better. Mainly because Thorne worked on them and I - honestly - don't know a better kid creator than her. I usually add percentages of YT, basic child and Genesis Baby to the pool. I was able to create Smacky as a kid for SnowSultan and he liked her.

    HeraldOfFire said:
    cecilia.robinson said:
    The situation with Genesis is better in terms of clothes and hairstyles. It can use anything on any shape, so the priority seems to be morphs. Agreed?
    Mostly, though you obviously don't want youth morphs on string bikini's or similar outfits. However, when the item is suitable for kids, child morphs go a long way to securing a sale from me at least. There are still very few dresses which work well with children, and many have a more revealing neckline.

    There's also relatively few skins which work well for youths, male skins especially. I understand the difficulty in making them though. Removing all trace of body hair on an adult male is never going to be an easy task, and photographing youths for the texture is out of the question. What you're generally left with is a skin which seems more fitting for a mid-teen rather than anything younger. And as much as I love the Brothers set for Genesis 2, even that skin suffers a bit from the same problem.

    Mada's Daydream Dress is still a firm favourite of mine. It auto converts beautifully to Genesis 2, looks great on young figures and is suitably modest. I'm sure I've lost count of how often I used it, and I rank it among my favourite purchases of all time. I recommend it to anyone looking for Genesis childrens outfits, as it was clearly designed with them in mind.

    You raise a good point about the skins. Fortunately some vendors - I'm looking at you, FWArt and P3D - have very even skins without much hair. If you choose covering clothes, many parts that may pose problems otherwise are solved. I totally agree with merchant resource kits being the only option for the kids (I wonder where they come from though).

    Really nice I could launch an interesting discussion with my topic. Thank you all for your open-hearted statements and hints. Eventually I should give the genesis kids more attention but assumely their options are much more limited than working with K4.On the contrary, working with Genesis has distinct advantages over using K4. Firstly, Genesis is compatible with K4 skins, so you can use a lot of the older content. It also includes an autofit for the outfits, which works wonders for the most part, though dresses are still a pain.

    You also have the advantage of the 'one size fits all' Genesis clothing. Jeans, Tee's and other items will fit your rugrats well enough, and as mentioned there are additional products which can help out in that area. I tend to use Genesis 2 for a lot of my tots these days, and I've developed some K4 UV's and an autofit clone to allow me to use a lot of older content. I've also redeveloped the Regency Dress for K4 to fit the G2F youth.

    This is a definite pro. And guess what? A lion's share of clothes I deem the best for the kids are free (starting from Wilmap).

  • Ghosty12Ghosty12 Posts: 2,080
    edited October 2014

    I think this is always the problem when creating young people models, characters and so on , in that it will always be a very touchy subject..

    Post edited by Ghosty12 on
  • DogzDogz Posts: 912
    edited December 1969

    Yeah hence why Daz, don't do much with kids themselves, partly because they don't sell well and partly because of ethical reasons. Which is fair enough, really.

  • WolpiWolpi Posts: 323
    edited December 1969

    Don't support the kids because of ethical reasons?? >:( In my opinion with K4 and all their options DAZ provided excellent basics for the kids. What lacks is appropriate modern clothing and cool toys. My kids don't like to walk in old-fashioned regency clothing or as cowboys and fairies only. And they don't want preschoolers' toys no more. Luckily other shops serve their needs much better. But I really can't imagine that this got anything to do with different ethical attitudes.

  • DogzDogz Posts: 912
    edited October 2014

    No, I meant the reason for lack of Kid shapes is partly ethical, while the lack of decent kids clothing is maybe more down to lack of interest and/or lack of kids in the first place. A 'vicious circle' if you will.
    Bottom line is, if you make a kid figure and someone circulates a creepy render (it only takes one), do you really want to be associated with that as a company? Not really.... Even if you didn't sanction it, you can be guilty by association.
    I'm just saying its understandable that its a potential can of worms (Particularly where Genesis and the freedom of Auto-fit is concerned.)
    That's all.

    Post edited by Dogz on
  • Male-M3diaMale-M3dia Posts: 3,584
    edited October 2014

    Dogz said:

    Bottom line is, if you make a kid figure and someone circulates a creepy render (it only takes one), do you really want to be associated with that as a company? Not really.... Even if you didn't sanction it, you can be guilty by association.
    I'm just saying its understandable that child shapes are a something of a can of worms for Daz themselves (Particularly where Genesis and the freedom of Auto-fit is concerned.)
    That's all.

    Agreed. I'm seeing way too many of my teen shapes in renders wearing just underwear and in items and situations that borders on porn even when M6 is used. It's very creepy when a teen is used for it. It's probably a good thing I don't get credited in those renders, though I see a lot of my products being used as bases for a lot of artists' renders.

    Post edited by Male-M3dia on
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