Will There Never Be a Way to Transfer HD Morphs?

135

Comments

  • TorquinoxTorquinox Posts: 4,465
    lana_lass said:
    Sevrin said:

    Yeah, pretty much this.  This is kind of like asking Coke to give up their recipe for Coca-Cola.  Besides, if Daz were to release the secret sauce, it would be pirated, so they would give up their competitive advantage, and a lot of PAs would lose income.  

    Very much agree with this. I know at least from my POV, the reason I crave access to the HD tools is essentially exactly why Daz shouldn't give them to me lol! I'd start spending far more time mastering it and striving to make my own high quality content and a lot less time shopping in the store.

    Also, I imagine providing exclusive access to the HD tools is part of the honeypot that Daz utilises to attract the very top PA talent to publish through their store rather than Renderosity, Reallusion etc. From my personal perspective with my comparatively low skill set, I'd rather Daz keep it on the DT and continue to attract the enormously talented PAs that they do so I can buy their beautiful artwork, rather than release the "secret sauce" (as @Sevrin so perfectly put it) to everyone and see amazing PAs stop producing for the program due to falling sales. 

    And anyone who is totally desperate for the secret sauce can always apply to be a PA, right? I mean, I know that sounds overly simplistic, but the option is always open to any of us. 

    If you've got the drive to make content, you can do that already. You can build skills. The vast majority of people don't or won't do it for various reasons. You can make new textures for existing items, you can model and texture props, you can make new characters, make morph packs, and so on. There are endless possibilities. The most important factors will be desire to learn and do the work, time to do the work, determination to keep going, and some sort of creative vision for what you want to do. Daz doesn't have *all* the best talent. There are some outstanding content creators in other places. Some PAs here started other places, and some very talented people don't want to be here. That's how it goes!

    If you end up with that shiny plugin, that will be great. But you don't need it to get started making content. yes

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 40,485
    edited April 2020

    the other real problem is the morphs are on DAZ mesh and owned by specific PA's and there is no easy in house way to go between generations without breaking a whole load of redistribution rules

    I could certainly in Zbrush using Zproject put morph shapes from a genesis 3 subdivided mesh onto a genesis 8 one and viceversa and naturally PA's could do this too and use the HD morph importer

    but

    it would have to be done by the PA who did the morph, another PA could not even do it without permission

    A PA only tool that worked like GenX etc would be the only answer if they then chose to do it and make multi generations of their characters and morphs
    I have incidently done it using M4 and V4 who are already highpoly and used morphloader, I can get some pretty close results on the creatures

    Post edited by WendyLuvsCatz on
  • lana_lasslana_lass Posts: 520
    edited April 2020
    Torquinox said:
    lana_lass said:
    Sevrin said:

    laughYeah, pretty much this.  This is kind of like asking Coke to give up their recipe for Coca-Cola.  Besides, if Daz were to release the secret sauce, it would be pirated, so they would give up their competitive advantage, and a lot of PAs would lose income.  

    Very much agree with this. I know at least from my POV, the reason I crave access to the HD tools is essentially exactly why Daz shouldn't give them to me lol! I'd start spending far more time mastering it and striving to make my own high quality content and a lot less time shopping in the store.

    Also, I imagine providing exclusive access to the HD tools is part of the honeypot that Daz utilises to attract the very top PA talent to publish through their store rather than Renderosity, Reallusion etc. From my personal perspective with my comparatively low skill set, I'd rather Daz keep it on the DT and continue to attract the enormously talented PAs that they do so I can buy their beautiful artwork, rather than release the "secret sauce" (as @Sevrin so perfectly put it) to everyone and see amazing PAs stop producing for the program due to falling sales. 

    And anyone who is totally desperate for the secret sauce can always apply to be a PA, right? I mean, I know that sounds overly simplistic, but the option is always open to any of us. 

    If you've got the drive to make content, you can do that already. You can build skills. The vast majority of people don't or won't do it for various reasons. You can make new textures for existing items, you can model and texture props, you can make new characters, make morph packs, and so on. There are endless possibilities. The most important factors will be desire to learn and do the work, time to do the work, determination to keep going, and some sort of creative vision for what you want to do. Daz doesn't have *all* the best talent. There are some outstanding content creators in other places. Some PAs here started other places, and some very talented people don't want to be here. That's how it goes!

    If you end up with that shiny plugin, that will be great. But you don't need it to get started making content. yes

    Oh, I make my own content smiley and am a non-3D artist by trade, so I'm totally with you on that and I do take that approach with Daz even though it's just my hobby. I was just talking from the specific perspective of Daz's HD tools. 
    And also, yes, there are lots of PAs not on Daz who are crazy talented. I certainly didn't mean to suggest otherwise heart Because publishing here also means being bound by the rules, some of which don't suit certain artists. But I certainly do think many of the Daz PAs are among the best making content for sure and we're lucky to have them contributing to the Daz program! 

    Post edited by lana_lass on
  • duckbombduckbomb Posts: 585

    It seems to me that I can see both sides of the argument, depending on which "hat" I'm wearing.  If I'm using DAZ as a 3D tool, then I can completely understand this limitation.  There are multiple ways around this, as many have mentioned, and there are more than enough tools at our disposal such as normals, displacement, and HD baking.

    However, if I switch hats and now consider DAZ 3D to be an ILLUSTRATION program, this is where I get frustrated by the decision.  If I need to go in and make some slight adjustment to the surface of something to give it the illusion of it interacting naturally with something else, I'm unable to just kick to ZBrush, make the change in HD, and then kick back unless I created that in a natural HD state.  Normals and displacement don't work because DForce, which we're all slowly moving towards if we haven't fully embraced it already, won't recognize that as real geo and then when you render you get a ton of issues you need to fix later.  Sure, you could guess and check and all of that, but blowing up a shirt or morphing out parts in one area just to compensate for the displacement isn't a solution because you're essentially making the whole thing fit worse to compensate for that one part.

    So...  I get it.  It's a business.  It's proprietary.  But this is my biggest complaint...  Perhaps I'm using DAZ 3D in a way it isn't meant to, but for me it's much more like Photoshop than it is to Maya, in my opinion, and doing quick and dirty things in PS to crank out a high-quality illustration is pretty much the name of the game over there.

    I don't expect anything to change, but since I hadn't seen anybody bring this up I felt it was worthwhile to at least mention it...

  • TorquinoxTorquinox Posts: 4,465
    lana_lass said:

    Oh, I make my own content smiley and am a non-3D artist by trade, so I'm totally with you on that and I do take that approach with Daz even though it's just my hobby. I was just talking from the specific perspective of Daz's HD tools. 
    And also, yes, there are lots of PAs not on Daz who are crazy talented. I certainly didn't mean to suggest otherwise heart Because publishing here also means being bound by the rules, some of which don't suit certain artists. But I certainly do think many of the Daz PAs are among the best making content for sure and we're lucky to have them contributing to the Daz program! 

    Cool! I'd be interested to see some of your work sometime smiley

  • AsariAsari Posts: 703
    edited April 2020
    duckbomb said:

    It seems to me that I can see both sides of the argument, depending on which "hat" I'm wearing.  If I'm using DAZ as a 3D tool, then I can completely understand this limitation.  There are multiple ways around this, as many have mentioned, and there are more than enough tools at our disposal such as normals, displacement, and HD baking.

    However, if I switch hats and now consider DAZ 3D to be an ILLUSTRATION program, this is where I get frustrated by the decision.  If I need to go in and make some slight adjustment to the surface of something to give it the illusion of it interacting naturally with something else, I'm unable to just kick to ZBrush, make the change in HD, and then kick back unless I created that in a natural HD state.  Normals and displacement don't work because DForce, which we're all slowly moving towards if we haven't fully embraced it already, won't recognize that as real geo and then when you render you get a ton of issues you need to fix later.  Sure, you could guess and check and all of that, but blowing up a shirt or morphing out parts in one area just to compensate for the displacement isn't a solution because you're essentially making the whole thing fit worse to compensate for that one part.

    So...  I get it.  It's a business.  It's proprietary.  But this is my biggest complaint...  Perhaps I'm using DAZ 3D in a way it isn't meant to, but for me it's much more like Photoshop than it is to Maya, in my opinion, and doing quick and dirty things in PS to crank out a high-quality illustration is pretty much the name of the game over there.

    I don't expect anything to change, but since I hadn't seen anybody bring this up I felt it was worthwhile to at least mention it...

    It seems to me, the entire system is rigged around the idea that the user of Daz Studio is not supposed to create their own content. There are several ways how users can import their own stuff and several bridges to open compatibility with other apps but generally Daz Studio seems to me designed as a closed system. A bit like EA's Frostbite platform if a gaming analogy is allowed - you can mod Frostbite games to a certain extent, but creating your own mods is not encouraged and therefore, many functions are not supported. Working with Daz Studio feels similar as it has several functionalities to create your own content but some functionality is restricted.

    Which makes sense business-wise because Daz makes money by selling content. And let's be honest Studio has an array of features that allows the use of custom content in Studio albeit with several limitations, depends on what you are doing; a lot of limitations can be overcome if you are only doing stills but if you are doing animations more limitations feel challenging.

    Post edited by Asari on
  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 109,151
    Asari said:
    duckbomb said:

    It seems to me that I can see both sides of the argument, depending on which "hat" I'm wearing.  If I'm using DAZ as a 3D tool, then I can completely understand this limitation.  There are multiple ways around this, as many have mentioned, and there are more than enough tools at our disposal such as normals, displacement, and HD baking.

    However, if I switch hats and now consider DAZ 3D to be an ILLUSTRATION program, this is where I get frustrated by the decision.  If I need to go in and make some slight adjustment to the surface of something to give it the illusion of it interacting naturally with something else, I'm unable to just kick to ZBrush, make the change in HD, and then kick back unless I created that in a natural HD state.  Normals and displacement don't work because DForce, which we're all slowly moving towards if we haven't fully embraced it already, won't recognize that as real geo and then when you render you get a ton of issues you need to fix later.  Sure, you could guess and check and all of that, but blowing up a shirt or morphing out parts in one area just to compensate for the displacement isn't a solution because you're essentially making the whole thing fit worse to compensate for that one part.

    So...  I get it.  It's a business.  It's proprietary.  But this is my biggest complaint...  Perhaps I'm using DAZ 3D in a way it isn't meant to, but for me it's much more like Photoshop than it is to Maya, in my opinion, and doing quick and dirty things in PS to crank out a high-quality illustration is pretty much the name of the game over there.

    I don't expect anything to change, but since I hadn't seen anybody bring this up I felt it was worthwhile to at least mention it...

     

    It seems to me, the entire system is rigged around the idea that the user of Daz Studio is not supposed to create their own content. There are several ways how users can import their own stuff and several bridges to open compatibility with other apps but generally Daz Studio seems to me designed as a closed system. A bit like EA's Frostbite platform if a gaming analogy is allowed - you can mod Frostbite games to a certain extent, but creating your own mods is not encouraged and therefore, many functions are not supported. Working with Daz Studio feels similar as it has several functionalities to create your own content but some functionality is restricted.

     

    Which makes sense business-wise because Daz makes money by selling content. And let's be honest Studio has an array of features that allows the use of custom content in Studio albeit with several limitations, depends on what you are doing; a lot of limitations can be overcome if you are only doing stills but if you are doing animations more limitations feel challenging.

    Users can create their own content except for HD morphs (but they can still use displacement etc.) and dForce Hair (but they can still use Strand Based Hair, and dForce polygon hair).

  • AsariAsari Posts: 703
    Asari said:
    duckbomb said:

    It seems to me that I can see both sides of the argument, depending on which "hat" I'm wearing.  If I'm using DAZ as a 3D tool, then I can completely understand this limitation.  There are multiple ways around this, as many have mentioned, and there are more than enough tools at our disposal such as normals, displacement, and HD baking.

    However, if I switch hats and now consider DAZ 3D to be an ILLUSTRATION program, this is where I get frustrated by the decision.  If I need to go in and make some slight adjustment to the surface of something to give it the illusion of it interacting naturally with something else, I'm unable to just kick to ZBrush, make the change in HD, and then kick back unless I created that in a natural HD state.  Normals and displacement don't work because DForce, which we're all slowly moving towards if we haven't fully embraced it already, won't recognize that as real geo and then when you render you get a ton of issues you need to fix later.  Sure, you could guess and check and all of that, but blowing up a shirt or morphing out parts in one area just to compensate for the displacement isn't a solution because you're essentially making the whole thing fit worse to compensate for that one part.

    So...  I get it.  It's a business.  It's proprietary.  But this is my biggest complaint...  Perhaps I'm using DAZ 3D in a way it isn't meant to, but for me it's much more like Photoshop than it is to Maya, in my opinion, and doing quick and dirty things in PS to crank out a high-quality illustration is pretty much the name of the game over there.

    I don't expect anything to change, but since I hadn't seen anybody bring this up I felt it was worthwhile to at least mention it...

     

    It seems to me, the entire system is rigged around the idea that the user of Daz Studio is not supposed to create their own content. There are several ways how users can import their own stuff and several bridges to open compatibility with other apps but generally Daz Studio seems to me designed as a closed system. A bit like EA's Frostbite platform if a gaming analogy is allowed - you can mod Frostbite games to a certain extent, but creating your own mods is not encouraged and therefore, many functions are not supported. Working with Daz Studio feels similar as it has several functionalities to create your own content but some functionality is restricted.

     

    Which makes sense business-wise because Daz makes money by selling content. And let's be honest Studio has an array of features that allows the use of custom content in Studio albeit with several limitations, depends on what you are doing; a lot of limitations can be overcome if you are only doing stills but if you are doing animations more limitations feel challenging.

    Users can create their own content except for HD morphs (but they can still use displacement etc.) and dForce Hair (but they can still use Strand Based Hair, and dForce polygon hair).

    I don't see how this contradicts with what I said?
  • xyer0xyer0 Posts: 6,389
    edited April 2020
    Asari said:
    duckbomb said:
     
    There are several ways how users can import their own stuff and several bridges to open compatibility with other apps but generally Daz Studio seems to me designed as a closed system.

    Which makes sense business-wise because Daz makes money by selling content.

    In my experiences I've found that Daz|Studio is hardly accommodating to even basic file formats like fbx and obj with materials. I was using Carrara to convert to Daz Collada, but the new fbx spec killed that. Fortunately, I purchased Poser Pro on sale when Bondware bought it, and I'm able to import [obj w/ materials; new fbx broke theirs too] and save as a Poser scene, which Daz still accepts. But then comes a long geometry editor session to separate the monolithic mesh into components.

    From a worldly business perspective, I can understand that the software program is free; so, they have to make money from the content. And, therefore, their content should be the only content used, but it's an unnecessary inconvenience.

    Post edited by xyer0 on
  • AsariAsari Posts: 703
    xyer0 said:
    Asari said:
    duckbomb said:
     
    There are several ways how users can import their own stuff and several bridges to open compatibility with other apps but generally Daz Studio seems to me designed as a closed system.

    Which makes sense business-wise because Daz makes money by selling content.

    In my experiences I've found that Daz|Studio is hardly accommodating to even basic file formats like fbx and obj with materials. I was using Carrara to convert to Daz Collada, but the new fbx spec killed that. Fortunately, I purchased Poser Pro on sale when Bondware bought it, and I'm able to import [obj w/ materials; new fbx broke theirs too] and save as a Poser scene, which Daz still accepts. But then comes a long geometry editor session to separate the monolithic mesh into components.

    From a worldly business perspective, I can understand that the software program is free; so, they have to make money from the content. And, therefore, their content should be the only content used, but it's an unnecessary inconvenience.

    I agree with everything you say. I found out the issue with fbx import myself the hard way ...
  • EllessarrEllessarr Posts: 1,395
    edited April 2020
    Asari said:
    Ellessarr said:
    Exporting at base resolution **is** the actual model, it's not the program helping with the smallest export possible. This is the mesh you work with to create your characters. 

    That was my point exactly, perhaps poorly expressed. I meant that the program "helps you" by not unnecesarily exporting the much larger subdivided model, because you can subdivide the base model any way you like in the target app. That's exactly what Daz itself does.

    The most important distinction that tripped me up for a while is that the base res model and the base res model at subd level 0 are NOT the same thing.

    you can aways try to export the high resolution in obj(daz allow you export the subdivided model in obj which will be just the mesh without any bones with the "current look) to bake the high mesh into the low resolution one, in some cases it can really work amazing and in some others it will work "average" what is matter is the complex of the "high resolution model" to be baked in the low resolution, many animators and game designers do that.

     

    I read about that a while ago and saw amazing results with that technique. Do you know of a source that elaborates on this any further? Doesn't need to be about any particular app, for the beginning I wish yo understand what this is about.

    here i posted a "tutorial about bake, since it's just about creating a "normal map" with details then it can be used anywhere even maybe here on daz if it's just about bake normal.

    https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/5252246/#Comment_5252246

    maybe it can help you, you can find a lot of usefull info too and others tutorials

     

    also maybe this link can help too

    https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/134926/adding-dual-quaternion-support-to-unrealengine4-images-inside/p1

     

    ofcourse those links are about using daz inside unreal engine.

    Post edited by Ellessarr on
  • AsariAsari Posts: 703
    Ellessarr said:
    Asari said:
    Ellessarr said:
    Exporting at base resolution **is** the actual model, it's not the program helping with the smallest export possible. This is the mesh you work with to create your characters. 

    That was my point exactly, perhaps poorly expressed. I meant that the program "helps you" by not unnecesarily exporting the much larger subdivided model, because you can subdivide the base model any way you like in the target app. That's exactly what Daz itself does.

    The most important distinction that tripped me up for a while is that the base res model and the base res model at subd level 0 are NOT the same thing.

    you can aways try to export the high resolution in obj(daz allow you export the subdivided model in obj which will be just the mesh without any bones with the "current look) to bake the high mesh into the low resolution one, in some cases it can really work amazing and in some others it will work "average" what is matter is the complex of the "high resolution model" to be baked in the low resolution, many animators and game designers do that.

     

    I read about that a while ago and saw amazing results with that technique. Do you know of a source that elaborates on this any further? Doesn't need to be about any particular app, for the beginning I wish yo understand what this is about.

    here i posted a "tutorial about bake, since it's just about creating a "normal map" with details then it can be used anywhere even maybe here on daz if it's just about bake normal.

    https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/5252246/#Comment_5252246

    maybe it can help you, you can find a lot of usefull info too and others tutorials

     

    also maybe this link can help too

    https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/134926/adding-dual-quaternion-support-to-unrealengine4-images-inside/p1

     

    ofcourse those links are about using daz inside unreal engine.

    Thank you - very useful indeed.
  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 109,151
    Asari said:
    Asari said:
    duckbomb said:

    It seems to me that I can see both sides of the argument, depending on which "hat" I'm wearing.  If I'm using DAZ as a 3D tool, then I can completely understand this limitation.  There are multiple ways around this, as many have mentioned, and there are more than enough tools at our disposal such as normals, displacement, and HD baking.

    However, if I switch hats and now consider DAZ 3D to be an ILLUSTRATION program, this is where I get frustrated by the decision.  If I need to go in and make some slight adjustment to the surface of something to give it the illusion of it interacting naturally with something else, I'm unable to just kick to ZBrush, make the change in HD, and then kick back unless I created that in a natural HD state.  Normals and displacement don't work because DForce, which we're all slowly moving towards if we haven't fully embraced it already, won't recognize that as real geo and then when you render you get a ton of issues you need to fix later.  Sure, you could guess and check and all of that, but blowing up a shirt or morphing out parts in one area just to compensate for the displacement isn't a solution because you're essentially making the whole thing fit worse to compensate for that one part.

    So...  I get it.  It's a business.  It's proprietary.  But this is my biggest complaint...  Perhaps I'm using DAZ 3D in a way it isn't meant to, but for me it's much more like Photoshop than it is to Maya, in my opinion, and doing quick and dirty things in PS to crank out a high-quality illustration is pretty much the name of the game over there.

    I don't expect anything to change, but since I hadn't seen anybody bring this up I felt it was worthwhile to at least mention it...

     

    It seems to me, the entire system is rigged around the idea that the user of Daz Studio is not supposed to create their own content. There are several ways how users can import their own stuff and several bridges to open compatibility with other apps but generally Daz Studio seems to me designed as a closed system. A bit like EA's Frostbite platform if a gaming analogy is allowed - you can mod Frostbite games to a certain extent, but creating your own mods is not encouraged and therefore, many functions are not supported. Working with Daz Studio feels similar as it has several functionalities to create your own content but some functionality is restricted.

     

    Which makes sense business-wise because Daz makes money by selling content. And let's be honest Studio has an array of features that allows the use of custom content in Studio albeit with several limitations, depends on what you are doing; a lot of limitations can be overcome if you are only doing stills but if you are doing animations more limitations feel challenging.

    Users can create their own content except for HD morphs (but they can still use displacement etc.) and dForce Hair (but they can still use Strand Based Hair, and dForce polygon hair).

     

    I don't see how this contradicts with what I said?

    I don't see how it doesn't - almost all types of content can be made by end users, the two that can't the block is only partial in that there are other ways to achieve simlar results (at least for still images). A couple of partial exceptions is very different from "the user of Daz Studio is not supposed to create their own content."

  • AsariAsari Posts: 703
    edited April 2020
    Asari said:
    Asari said:
    duckbomb said:

    It seems to me that I can see both sides of the argument, depending on which "hat" I'm wearing.  If I'm using DAZ as a 3D tool, then I can completely understand this limitation.  There are multiple ways around this, as many have mentioned, and there are more than enough tools at our disposal such as normals, displacement, and HD baking.

    However, if I switch hats and now consider DAZ 3D to be an ILLUSTRATION program, this is where I get frustrated by the decision.  If I need to go in and make some slight adjustment to the surface of something to give it the illusion of it interacting naturally with something else, I'm unable to just kick to ZBrush, make the change in HD, and then kick back unless I created that in a natural HD state.  Normals and displacement don't work because DForce, which we're all slowly moving towards if we haven't fully embraced it already, won't recognize that as real geo and then when you render you get a ton of issues you need to fix later.  Sure, you could guess and check and all of that, but blowing up a shirt or morphing out parts in one area just to compensate for the displacement isn't a solution because you're essentially making the whole thing fit worse to compensate for that one part.

    So...  I get it.  It's a business.  It's proprietary.  But this is my biggest complaint...  Perhaps I'm using DAZ 3D in a way it isn't meant to, but for me it's much more like Photoshop than it is to Maya, in my opinion, and doing quick and dirty things in PS to crank out a high-quality illustration is pretty much the name of the game over there.

    I don't expect anything to change, but since I hadn't seen anybody bring this up I felt it was worthwhile to at least mention it...

     

    It seems to me, the entire system is rigged around the idea that the user of Daz Studio is not supposed to create their own content. There are several ways how users can import their own stuff and several bridges to open compatibility with other apps but generally Daz Studio seems to me designed as a closed system. A bit like EA's Frostbite platform if a gaming analogy is allowed - you can mod Frostbite games to a certain extent, but creating your own mods is not encouraged and therefore, many functions are not supported. Working with Daz Studio feels similar as it has several functionalities to create your own content but some functionality is restricted.

     

    Which makes sense business-wise because Daz makes money by selling content. And let's be honest Studio has an array of features that allows the use of custom content in Studio albeit with several limitations, depends on what you are doing; a lot of limitations can be overcome if you are only doing stills but if you are doing animations more limitations feel challenging.

    Users can create their own content except for HD morphs (but they can still use displacement etc.) and dForce Hair (but they can still use Strand Based Hair, and dForce polygon hair).

     

    I don't see how this contradicts with what I said?

    I don't see how it doesn't - almost all types of content can be made by end users, the two that can't the block is only partial in that there are other ways to achieve simlar results (at least for still images). A couple of partial exceptions is very different from "the user of Daz Studio is not supposed to create their own content."

    The passage you just quoted referred to Studio's general design. Studio was designed generally as a platform to be used with Daz content. Whereas I said later in the same post:

    "And let's be honest Studio has an array of features that allows the use of custom content in Studio."

    But fine, if you see the necessity that you have to correct me on a thing that I said later in my own post myself you quoted in full, it's ok, I don't mind. I don't think I have said anything different than you. I'll drop it here since I don't see any argument.

    Post edited by Asari on
  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 109,151
    Asari said:
    Asari said:
    Asari said:
    duckbomb said:

    It seems to me that I can see both sides of the argument, depending on which "hat" I'm wearing.  If I'm using DAZ as a 3D tool, then I can completely understand this limitation.  There are multiple ways around this, as many have mentioned, and there are more than enough tools at our disposal such as normals, displacement, and HD baking.

    However, if I switch hats and now consider DAZ 3D to be an ILLUSTRATION program, this is where I get frustrated by the decision.  If I need to go in and make some slight adjustment to the surface of something to give it the illusion of it interacting naturally with something else, I'm unable to just kick to ZBrush, make the change in HD, and then kick back unless I created that in a natural HD state.  Normals and displacement don't work because DForce, which we're all slowly moving towards if we haven't fully embraced it already, won't recognize that as real geo and then when you render you get a ton of issues you need to fix later.  Sure, you could guess and check and all of that, but blowing up a shirt or morphing out parts in one area just to compensate for the displacement isn't a solution because you're essentially making the whole thing fit worse to compensate for that one part.

    So...  I get it.  It's a business.  It's proprietary.  But this is my biggest complaint...  Perhaps I'm using DAZ 3D in a way it isn't meant to, but for me it's much more like Photoshop than it is to Maya, in my opinion, and doing quick and dirty things in PS to crank out a high-quality illustration is pretty much the name of the game over there.

    I don't expect anything to change, but since I hadn't seen anybody bring this up I felt it was worthwhile to at least mention it...

     

    It seems to me, the entire system is rigged around the idea that the user of Daz Studio is not supposed to create their own content. There are several ways how users can import their own stuff and several bridges to open compatibility with other apps but generally Daz Studio seems to me designed as a closed system. A bit like EA's Frostbite platform if a gaming analogy is allowed - you can mod Frostbite games to a certain extent, but creating your own mods is not encouraged and therefore, many functions are not supported. Working with Daz Studio feels similar as it has several functionalities to create your own content but some functionality is restricted.

     

    Which makes sense business-wise because Daz makes money by selling content. And let's be honest Studio has an array of features that allows the use of custom content in Studio albeit with several limitations, depends on what you are doing; a lot of limitations can be overcome if you are only doing stills but if you are doing animations more limitations feel challenging.

    Users can create their own content except for HD morphs (but they can still use displacement etc.) and dForce Hair (but they can still use Strand Based Hair, and dForce polygon hair).

     

    I don't see how this contradicts with what I said?

    I don't see how it doesn't - almost all types of content can be made by end users, the two that can't the block is only partial in that there are other ways to achieve simlar results (at least for still images). A couple of partial exceptions is very different from "the user of Daz Studio is not supposed to create their own content."

     

    The passage you just quoted referred to Studio's general design. Studio was designed generally as a platform to be used with Daz content. Whereas I said later in the same post:

     

    "And let's be honest Studio has an array of features that allows the use of custom content in Studio."

     

    But fine, if you see the necessity that you have to correct me on a thing that I said later in my own post myself you quoted in full, it's ok, I don't mind. I don't think I have said anything different than you. I'll drop it here since I don't see any argument.

    Then I apologise for misunderstanding your intent.

  • EllessarrEllessarr Posts: 1,395
    edited April 2020
    Asari said:
    Ellessarr said:
    Asari said:
    Ellessarr said:
    Exporting at base resolution **is** the actual model, it's not the program helping with the smallest export possible. This is the mesh you work with to create your characters. 

    That was my point exactly, perhaps poorly expressed. I meant that the program "helps you" by not unnecesarily exporting the much larger subdivided model, because you can subdivide the base model any way you like in the target app. That's exactly what Daz itself does.

    The most important distinction that tripped me up for a while is that the base res model and the base res model at subd level 0 are NOT the same thing.

    you can aways try to export the high resolution in obj(daz allow you export the subdivided model in obj which will be just the mesh without any bones with the "current look) to bake the high mesh into the low resolution one, in some cases it can really work amazing and in some others it will work "average" what is matter is the complex of the "high resolution model" to be baked in the low resolution, many animators and game designers do that.

     

    I read about that a while ago and saw amazing results with that technique. Do you know of a source that elaborates on this any further? Doesn't need to be about any particular app, for the beginning I wish yo understand what this is about.

    here i posted a "tutorial about bake, since it's just about creating a "normal map" with details then it can be used anywhere even maybe here on daz if it's just about bake normal.

    https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/5252246/#Comment_5252246

    maybe it can help you, you can find a lot of usefull info too and others tutorials

     

    also maybe this link can help too

    https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/134926/adding-dual-quaternion-support-to-unrealengine4-images-inside/p1

     

    ofcourse those links are about using daz inside unreal engine.

     

    Thank you - very useful indeed.

    np, i hope it help's you, here a exemple of "aureka character using her highest resolution full baked:

             

     

    a baked hd aureka, you can't have the full hd mesh but you can "fake it" with the bake technic.

    this is her without any normal

        

     

    you can see the diference, while this is not the real and perfect soluction is a good work around to use "hd morphs" the same goes for any morph you want to apply, dial the morph then export the base mesh with the morph then export the high resolution obj with the morph applied then bake the high resolution into the base mesh, now you have that morph.

    Post edited by Ellessarr on
  • To be honest, the HD morphs are a bit of a gimmick, the only thing they provide over other techniques, with the exception of vector normal maps, is that they allow for full or partial undercuts and creasing in the geometry, which is ok for extreme morphs and characters, but practically useless for general everyday human figures. For human figures you can do everything with standard morphs, displacement, bump, and normal maps. The only application I see for human figure HD morphs is in closeup animation because you can change morphs in animation easier than you can change images, but then people are not creating such content, they are creating HD static morphs for human figures, which is pointless IMO. If I want zits, scars and wrinkles on my figures, I get photoshop out.

     

     

  • LucielLuciel Posts: 475

    To be honest, the HD morphs are a bit of a gimmick, the only thing they provide over other techniques, with the exception of vector normal maps, is that they allow for full or partial undercuts and creasing in the geometry, which is ok for extreme morphs and characters, but practically useless for general everyday human figures.

     

    To go a step further, even bump/normal maps can be pretty much pointless at less than close up distances on most characters.

  • duckbombduckbomb Posts: 585
    Luciel said:

    To be honest, the HD morphs are a bit of a gimmick, the only thing they provide over other techniques, with the exception of vector normal maps, is that they allow for full or partial undercuts and creasing in the geometry, which is ok for extreme morphs and characters, but practically useless for general everyday human figures.

     

    To go a step further, even bump/normal maps can be pretty much pointless at less than close up distances on most characters.

    Well I really enjoy the speed and efficiency with which I can make subtle geo changes on things like couches, clothes, drapes, or any other "soft" object that I've created myself and imported at high res.  It might be a gimmick in the sense that I'm not simulating these effects, but I can get an amazing effect very easily by sending through GoZ and back again, and to be able to do that with any DAZ purchased resource (NOT just people) would be amazing.

     

    I guess a gimmick to one is a solution for another.

  • AsariAsari Posts: 703
    Ellessarr said:
    Asari said:
    Ellessarr said:
    Asari said:
    Ellessarr said:
    Exporting at base resolution **is** the actual model, it's not the program helping with the smallest export possible. This is the mesh you work with to create your characters. 

    That was my point exactly, perhaps poorly expressed. I meant that the program "helps you" by not unnecesarily exporting the much larger subdivided model, because you can subdivide the base model any way you like in the target app. That's exactly what Daz itself does.

    The most important distinction that tripped me up for a while is that the base res model and the base res model at subd level 0 are NOT the same thing.

    you can aways try to export the high resolution in obj(daz allow you export the subdivided model in obj which will be just the mesh without any bones with the "current look) to bake the high mesh into the low resolution one, in some cases it can really work amazing and in some others it will work "average" what is matter is the complex of the "high resolution model" to be baked in the low resolution, many animators and game designers do that.

     

    I read about that a while ago and saw amazing results with that technique. Do you know of a source that elaborates on this any further? Doesn't need to be about any particular app, for the beginning I wish yo understand what this is about.

    here i posted a "tutorial about bake, since it's just about creating a "normal map" with details then it can be used anywhere even maybe here on daz if it's just about bake normal.

    https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/5252246/#Comment_5252246

    maybe it can help you, you can find a lot of usefull info too and others tutorials

     

    also maybe this link can help too

    https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/134926/adding-dual-quaternion-support-to-unrealengine4-images-inside/p1

     

    ofcourse those links are about using daz inside unreal engine.

     

    Thank you - very useful indeed.

    np, i hope it help's you, here a exemple of "aureka character using her highest resolution full baked:

             

     

    a baked hd aureka, you can't have the full hd mesh but you can "fake it" with the bake technic.

    this is her without any normal

        

     

    you can see the diference, while this is not the real and perfect soluction is a good work around to use "hd morphs" the same goes for any morph you want to apply, dial the morph then export the base mesh with the morph then export the high resolution obj with the morph applied then bake the high resolution into the base mesh, now you have that morph.

    Thank you so much for sharing these, that looks totally impressive. I will definitely study it further and see what I can do with it ... I bookmarked your tips and hope to have a more thorough look at it. Thanks again.
  • TorquinoxTorquinox Posts: 4,465

    I think @Ellessarr 's demo is quite interesting. There is more than one way to get a desired result.

  • EllessarrEllessarr Posts: 1,395
    edited April 2020
    Torquinox said:

    I think @Ellessarr 's demo is quite interesting. There is more than one way to get a desired result.

    yeah at first i also was disappointed after learn about the "hd" stuffs which you can't export hd levels and only base outside daz, it make me angry at first because some of mine wanted and purchuased morphs were "hd", but then i remembered about the "bake process" which i've learned at my game design school, then after tried it and get the positive results i've wanted i get happy, to be fair it's not perfect and a really big close-up can make the "illusion" disappear but only if you want like to stared at the "pores of the skin in your face it not a big deal for any animation or game design they are perfect and even render if again is not about a super close-up and if you are really good with working on material and know how to work with tesselation you can even "fix" this issue using tesselation to make a even more perfect illusion but it's need a really deep knowledge and work time to achiev that level one thing which i really don't have and have much time to study about since i've already have too much things to improve and work in game design then i can only go further enough to have the detail level good enough for a good game.

     

    Ofcource my experience is outside daz in my case inside unreal, when come to daz i really don't know the full process in how to improve it, but if it's about a single normal map then bake can do the job.

     

    Another good exemple would be the "age morph" from zevo you can use almost the same process to "export" the age morph it would take just few more steps if you want to have  "outside control over the morph otherwise you can just follow the normal steps and just use the morphed mesh, because you need to export the model one time with the dial morph applied to create the bake then a second time to "export" the character with the "morph dial" to be applied outside daz in case you want to have the "not modified base mesh" and be able to "control" when it will "age", then you can make a blueprint to "when apply the dial morph in the mesh it also will applie the "baked age Normal" too, just some tricks to work around the issue.

     

    any question feel free to ask maybe here or maybe in pm, to be fair and clear i'm not the best and ultra knowledge in all of those things then don't expect me know and answer everything, i can´t full help with any question but the ones i can i will try to help.

     

    Ofcourse bake process is not perfect and in some cases it can be possible to not achieve the "desired results for you, based on the complexibility of the model but overal can still work pretty well in most of the cases.

    Post edited by Ellessarr on
  • TorquinoxTorquinox Posts: 4,465

    @Ellessarr Thanks again for your advice and generosity. It's too soon for me to have questions, but I'll keep your offer in mind. Cheers to you! yes

  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 11,715

    To be honest, the HD morphs are a bit of a gimmick, the only thing they provide over other techniques, with the exception of vector normal maps, is that they allow for full or partial undercuts and creasing in the geometry, which is ok for extreme morphs and characters, but practically useless for general everyday human figures. For human figures you can do everything with standard morphs, displacement, bump, and normal maps. The only application I see for human figure HD morphs is in closeup animation because you can change morphs in animation easier than you can change images, but then people are not creating such content, they are creating HD static morphs for human figures, which is pointless IMO. If I want zits, scars and wrinkles on my figures, I get photoshop out.

     

     

    No you can't.

    Details from normal maps for example are lost at the outside.

  • EllessarrEllessarr Posts: 1,395
    nicstt said:

    To be honest, the HD morphs are a bit of a gimmick, the only thing they provide over other techniques, with the exception of vector normal maps, is that they allow for full or partial undercuts and creasing in the geometry, which is ok for extreme morphs and characters, but practically useless for general everyday human figures. For human figures you can do everything with standard morphs, displacement, bump, and normal maps. The only application I see for human figure HD morphs is in closeup animation because you can change morphs in animation easier than you can change images, but then people are not creating such content, they are creating HD static morphs for human figures, which is pointless IMO. If I want zits, scars and wrinkles on my figures, I get photoshop out.

     

     

    No you can't.

    Details from normal maps for example are lost at the outside.

    and how they are lost?

  • LucielLuciel Posts: 475
    nicstt said:

    To be honest, the HD morphs are a bit of a gimmick, the only thing they provide over other techniques, with the exception of vector normal maps, is that they allow for full or partial undercuts and creasing in the geometry, which is ok for extreme morphs and characters, but practically useless for general everyday human figures. For human figures you can do everything with standard morphs, displacement, bump, and normal maps. The only application I see for human figure HD morphs is in closeup animation because you can change morphs in animation easier than you can change images, but then people are not creating such content, they are creating HD static morphs for human figures, which is pointless IMO. If I want zits, scars and wrinkles on my figures, I get photoshop out.

     

     

    No you can't.

    Details from normal maps for example are lost at the outside.

    Just use tesselation maps then, those can change the silhouette of objects. I mean, you can do so with normal maps and some slightly fancy shader coding too if you like (though it doesn't look the best though as it's a bunch of "shells", and is pretty "heavy" as a shader).

    However, regardless, the point still stands that at even reasonable distances the effects on a "normal" human shape will be virtually indistinguishable. 

  • Ellessarr said:
    nicstt said:

    No you can't.

    Details from normal maps for example are lost at the outside.

    and how they are lost?

    Think he means viewed from the side, (at the edge of the object as viewed) there is no surface height change with normal maps. But that's what displacement is for. And it only really applies to large difference in suface height such as warts, zits or deep wrinkles, and only when your zoomed in enough for it matter, which is the same for HD morphs really.

    On a side note, I still haven't seen any HD morphs with displacement, bump, and normal maps applied, Anyone know any that really push the limits?

  • outrider42outrider42 Posts: 3,679
    RawArt said:

    DAZ develops a tool to ensure that their store has the highest quality characters. So the characters in their store can have details that far surpass any other stores figures out there.

    Why should they give that away?

    It is something they worked hard on, spent countless hours developing and then they are expected to give it away an have their hard work now benefiting other stores?

    That is a very Ayn Rand type of scenerio, atlas has not shrugged that far.

    If other places or people want to develop a tool to do a similar type of thing, then that is always open for them to do so. But you cannot really expect Daz to simply give it away (or sell it) like that. If you want to be the best, you build the path for yourself to do so.

     

    I never actually said they had to give it away. Daz has a EULA and legal documentation which we all must abide by whether we are a PA or not. That EULA already includes language to prevent anyone from selling HD content outside of the Daz store. After all...what is preventing the hundreds of PAs who have access to HD from going 'rogue' and doing that right now? The EULA, that's what. All people are asking for is to be treated equally, not for Daz to upend its business. Why is that so difficult to understand?

    So they can still provide access to the tools so that users can create their art, while still maintaining their market advantage. What's the problem with that?

    Thus saying that this would destroy Daz's advantage over other stores is completely invalid. The contracts ALREADY prevent this. So no, this doesn't mean that people can start selling HD content at Renderosity or elsewhere.

     

    Chohole said:

    Yeah,  just think  If the Colonel hadn't had a secret recipe would he ever have sold as much chicken as he did?

     

    [snip]And that is how Daz makes money. Anybody can create and render 3D models, but Daz Studio is the Jiffy Lube of 3D. The paint by numbers, ect. Just like millions of people don't wont to bother with oil changes, many people don't want to bother building everything in 3D. So Daz offers just about everything in a premade state for customers.

     

    And that is why blocking access to HD for non PAs makes no sense. Opening it up would not cause some wild floodgate of people to stop buying content from Daz. If anything it could actually improve sales because think of all the new HD transfer products that could be sold. HD might attract more artists to Daz, like those who balk at the super low poly models offered here.

    Good points, except for one thing. By limiting the HD access to Daz PAs only, they are able to also require that all products made using the HD tools can only be sold at Daz. JiffyLube does not want their special tools to be used for products sold at Valvoline.

    To repeat, what I said does not mean Daz has to allow people to sell HD content at other sites. So when you say Jiffylube does not want their special tools used by others, that still applies here.

    The legal documentation for everything already exists. Nobody can sell HD in other stores. That does not change. But if Daz is truly serious about allowing its users to "Create their own universe with Daz Studio", then at some point in the future will have to actually allow their users the ability to do that because the base resolution of Genesis is simply not good enough in 2020.

  • AsariAsari Posts: 703
    An honest question, and not trolling - if it's content sold at Renderosity that bothers Daz so much, why not shut down that altogether with encryption so that only content purchased at Daz will work in Studio? That's the route the gaming industry went along ... Currently Renderosity makes a lot of money with Daz stuff even without HD characters and Daz sees none of its share and if it's mainly about shutting down Renderosity wouldn't that be a more direct approach?

    I know Daz tried to implement something like this with DIM at a time before I joined Daz so I don't know the whole story. DRM-content would restrict users severely- it can stop them from creating their own textures and import their own objs to be used in Studio so was that one of the reasons why DRM was dropped?

  • LeanaLeana Posts: 12,919
    Asari said:
    An honest question, and not trolling - if it's content sold at Renderosity that bothers Daz so much, why not shut down that altogether with encryption so that only content purchased at Daz will work in Studio? 

    Because it's a very bad idea and they'd lose a lot (if not most) of their customers.

    For one thing, quite a lot of users are against DRM on principle and would just stop buying from Daz because of that.

    Secondly, quite a few customers have a lot of content they bought elsewhere or got for free. Personally if I can't use the ton of content I already have from other places in newer versions if DS, there's a very good chance I'll stop upgrading DS and buying new stuff.

    Thirdly, there are a lot of customers who buy content at Daz to use in other apps. If you restrict the content to DS only or make it more difficult to use elsewhere, you lose them.

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