Loading...
> >

The Mysterious Dynamic Surface Add-On

Doc AcmeDoc Acme Posts: 1,153
in The Commons

What is a Dynamic Surface Add-On?  I've read the "description":


2 - "Dynamic Surface Add-On"

    Objects of this type have all of the same qualities as a Dynamic Surface, with the exception that its faces do not participate in collision (but its vertices do), its faces are not wind blocking, and it has the ability to attach/graft/weld to a Dynamic Surface object
    The purpose of this type is to provide "scaffolding" (additional springs) that supports the Dynamic Surface object it is parented to
    The vertices of "this" object that coincide with the vertices of the object it is supporting (parented to), in their respective base shapes, is where the "scaffolding" attaches/grafts/welds
    The mesh should be whatever network of springs (polygons/edges) supports the object that it is an Add-On for, in whatever way it should support it; the mesh can be as simple or as complex as you like, so long as you realize that you are defining a network of springs; if the structure of the springs and their respective surface settings are such that they hold their shape, so too will they help hold the shape of the object they are attached to, at the point(s) in which they are attached.


... but not overly informative to those of us more visual than lexical.  

Any vids somewhere on what exactly this is & how/when used?  And not buried somewhere in a hour long tut? I know this has been asked about for some time now.

«1

Comments

  • MelissaGTMelissaGT Posts: 2,611
    edited March 2020

    Yeah, I feel I'm pretty handy with dForce and can use it sucessfully on almost any clothing/hair, even those not made for dForce...but I seriouslly cannot find any useful documentation on what in the frack the Add-On is, what it does, or what it's for...and especially not how it's in any way applied/used. 

    Post edited by MelissaGT on
  • felisfelis Posts: 6,046

    Yeah, those are a bit tricky.

    But if I understand it right you can use it for connecting 2 dForce surfaces. Let's say you have a jacket which is modelled as "open", i.e. the 2 sides are not connected. Then you can have one or more edges that are a separate object, but it is important that the vertices of these edges match vertices of the jacket. If you make these edges dForce Add-on, then it should keep the jacket closed.

    But if any product is actually using this I do not know.

  • MelissaGTMelissaGT Posts: 2,611
    felis said:

    Yeah, those are a bit tricky.

    But if I understand it right you can use it for connecting 2 dForce surfaces. Let's say you have a jacket which is modelled as "open", i.e. the 2 sides are not connected. Then you can have one or more edges that are a separate object, but it is important that the vertices of these edges match vertices of the jacket. If you make these edges dForce Add-on, then it should keep the jacket closed.

    But if any product is actually using this I do not know.

    You can also "glue" seams together with a dForce weight map node. 

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 109,000

    It can be glue - for example holding the openings of a shirt together. It can also be a framework, holding a tube open or acting like hoops in a skirt.

  • NorthOf45NorthOf45 Posts: 5,733

    I imagine things like umbrella & parasol ribs, hoop skirts, collar stiffeners, corset stays, sail battens...

  • kwanniekwannie Posts: 870

    Where in the world is this Add On found? Is it a plug in that is available for prurchase?

  • NorthOf45NorthOf45 Posts: 5,733

    Menu -> Edit -> (Object or Figure) -> Geometry -> Add dForce Modifier: Dynamic Surface Add-on

  • MelissaGTMelissaGT Posts: 2,611
    Richard Haseltine said:

    It can be glue - for example holding the openings of a shirt together. It can also be a framework, holding a tube open or acting like hoops in a skirt.

    How would it work, though, given that you add the add-on to the entire object, just like the regular dynamic surface? So you add it, and then adjust via the surfaces tab...but how would you say have a jacket that you've turned into a dynamic object and then also apply the add-on to hold the front closed? Wouldn't one cancel out the other? This is where it's so confusing as to the application. I've never seen someone actually use it. 

  • MadaMada Posts: 2,045

    I use it in a lot of my products - to keep shirts from opening up during dforce, and to give thickness to cloth, it keeps the rolled edges from unrolling during a sim.

    https://www.daz3d.com/dforce-caballero-outfit-for-genesis-8-males
    https://www.daz3d.com/dforce-poolside-oahu-outfit-for-genesis-8-males
    https://www.daz3d.com/dforce-party-oahu-outfit-for-genesis-8-males
    https://www.daz3d.com/dforce-showdown-outfit-for-genesis-8-males
    https://www.daz3d.com/dforce-nainai-outfit-for-genesis-8-females
     

  • MadaMada Posts: 2,045

    I used it for the necklace as well to stop the tube from collapsing during dforce
    https://www.daz3d.com/dforce-necklace-merchant-resource

  • MadaMada Posts: 2,045

    The difference between using a weightmap to hold a shirt closed and a dynamic surface add on is with the weightmap you're basically painting the dynamic part out and its using the conforming position. With the add on you keep the full dynamic range but the polygons keep their position relative to each other even though they're not connected mesh. 

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 109,000
    melissastjames said:
    Richard Haseltine said:

    It can be glue - for example holding the openings of a shirt together. It can also be a framework, holding a tube open or acting like hoops in a skirt.

    How would it work, though, given that you add the add-on to the entire object, just like the regular dynamic surface? So you add it, and then adjust via the surfaces tab...but how would you say have a jacket that you've turned into a dynamic object and then also apply the add-on to hold the front closed? Wouldn't one cancel out the other? This is where it's so confusing as to the application. I've never seen someone actually use it. 

    The add-on has to share vertex positions with the thing it is an add-on for (so these are specific, not general). Fasteners would perhaps be a a single edge linking two vertices, one of whicjh matched the position of a vertex on the left of the opening in the garment and one a vertex on the right; stiffeners might link vertices on left and right of the item, or might be a triangle or square with each corner matching a vertex on the model they went with.

  • Doc AcmeDoc Acme Posts: 1,153

    OK.  Useful tool obviously. 

    Still begs the question though as to why no one has bothered to do a make some tutorials on it's use?

    (Nudge nudge, wink, wink)!

     

  • MadaMada Posts: 2,045

    Personally because I don't have enough hours in the day :) Its on my list

  • MelissaGTMelissaGT Posts: 2,611
    edited March 2020
    Richard Haseltine said:
    melissastjames said:
    Richard Haseltine said:

    It can be glue - for example holding the openings of a shirt together. It can also be a framework, holding a tube open or acting like hoops in a skirt.

    How would it work, though, given that you add the add-on to the entire object, just like the regular dynamic surface? So you add it, and then adjust via the surfaces tab...but how would you say have a jacket that you've turned into a dynamic object and then also apply the add-on to hold the front closed? Wouldn't one cancel out the other? This is where it's so confusing as to the application. I've never seen someone actually use it. 

    The add-on has to share vertex positions with the thing it is an add-on for (so these are specific, not general). Fasteners would perhaps be a a single edge linking two vertices, one of whicjh matched the position of a vertex on the left of the opening in the garment and one a vertex on the right; stiffeners might link vertices on left and right of the item, or might be a triangle or square with each corner matching a vertex on the model they went with.

    So if I'm reading correctly, there needs to be two separate figures to add the dynamics to...one, a shirt for example, would be the dynamic object, and then there would be buttons or a clip or whatever that would be the add-on. So you couldn't use this on a piece of clothing that was all one mesh, like a shirt with buttons that were all one piece. I think that's what I'm trying to get at. 

    @Mada I very much love your outfits because they are so well put together...all of the rigid folow nodes and things that stay rigid when they should. It's one of my giant pet peeves about clothing and you're one of the few artists that I have no reservations about buying with!

    Post edited by MelissaGT on
  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 109,000
    melissastjames said:
    Richard Haseltine said:
    melissastjames said:
    Richard Haseltine said:

    It can be glue - for example holding the openings of a shirt together. It can also be a framework, holding a tube open or acting like hoops in a skirt.

    How would it work, though, given that you add the add-on to the entire object, just like the regular dynamic surface? So you add it, and then adjust via the surfaces tab...but how would you say have a jacket that you've turned into a dynamic object and then also apply the add-on to hold the front closed? Wouldn't one cancel out the other? This is where it's so confusing as to the application. I've never seen someone actually use it. 

    The add-on has to share vertex positions with the thing it is an add-on for (so these are specific, not general). Fasteners would perhaps be a a single edge linking two vertices, one of whicjh matched the position of a vertex on the left of the opening in the garment and one a vertex on the right; stiffeners might link vertices on left and right of the item, or might be a triangle or square with each corner matching a vertex on the model they went with.

    So if I'm reading correctly, there needs to be two separate figures to add the dynamics to...one, a shirt for example, would be the dynamic object, and then there would be buttons or a clip or whatever that would be the add-on. So you couldn't use this on a piece of clothing that was all one mesh, like a shirt with buttons that were all one piece. I think that's what I'm trying to get at. 

    The add-on isn't visible at all (usually) - things like buttons would be best handled with rigid Follow Nodes (for which Mada does have a guide). The add-on is an additional item (or items - for example one for each buton you wanted to be undoable) made especially for the dForce item.

    melissastjames said:

    @Mada I very much love your outfits because they are so well put together...all of the rigid folow nodes and things that stay rigid when they should. It's one of my giant pet peeves about clothing and you're one of the few artists that I have no reservations about buying with!

     

  • Doc AcmeDoc Acme Posts: 1,153
    Mada said:

    Personally because I don't have enough hours in the day :) Its on my list

    Thanks Mada. I know that tune very well. That'd be nice but surely there must be a LOT of others out there capable & willing.

     

     

  • PraxisPraxis Posts: 275
    melissastjames said:

    ...but I seriouslly cannot find any useful documentation on what in the frack the Add-On is, what it does, or what it's for...and especially not how it's in any way applied/used. 

    ...

    melissastjames said:

    How would it work ...  

    I've never seen someone actually use it. 

    See the "dForce Add-On Modifier" section in the "Subject Index" (the 2nd post) in https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/208141/how-to-use-dforce-creating-a-blanket-draping-clothes-on-furniture-and-much-more-commercial/p1

     

    These are not videos, but they are some example scenes you can download and interactively experiment with (with some summary instructions that are admittedly less than "Tutorial" grade):

    A simple bouncing ball NB: Requires DAZ Studio v4.11.0.236 or later

    Various bouncing stuff NB: Requires DAZ Studio v4.12.0.47 or later

     

    melissastjames said:

    So if I'm reading correctly, there needs to be two separate figures to add the dynamics to...one, a shirt for example, would be the dynamic object, and then there would be buttons or a clip or whatever that would be the add-on. So you couldn't use this on a piece of clothing that was all one mesh, like a shirt with buttons that were all one piece. I think that's what I'm trying to get at. 

    In my (limited) experience, a dForce Add-On Structure can be used only to link selected Vertices of a single mesh - I have not got it to work linking 2 separate meshes together.  This script lets you link pairs of Vertices of a mesh: http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dazstudio/4/referenceguide/scripting/api_reference/samples/geometry/generate_polyline_dynamic_surface_addon/start

     

    It seems that the purpose of an Add-On is to provide some 3D structure to dForce simulations which would otherwise be limited to mostly-2D "cloth-like" effects.

    The Add-On consists of Vertices linked by Polylines: A  Polyline is a line that links 2 Vertices.  Potentially, the line could consist of multiple segments, but I have used and encountered only single-segment lines, i.e. like the Edges of a mesh, but the Add-On mesh has no Facets, just these lines, each of which acts like a spring in the dForce simulation.  Unlike a normal dForce Dynamic Surface, an Add-On has no automatically-generated Shear or Bending springs - only the springs you specify via Polylines.

    The Add-On interacts with the Dynamic Surface mesh by having some of its Vertices co-incident with relevant Vertices of the Dynamic Surface:  Studio automatically "welds" the Add-On to the Dynamic Surface at those  points, causing the Add-On Polyline springs to affect the dynamics of the Surface.

    Enuff "lexical" stuff... cheeky

     

  • Doc AcmeDoc Acme Posts: 1,153
    Praxis said:
    melissastjames said:

    ...but I seriouslly cannot find any useful documentation on what in the frack the Add-On is, what it does, or what it's for...and especially not how it's in any way applied/used. 

    ...

    melissastjames said:

    How would it work ...  

    I've never seen someone actually use it. 

    See the "dForce Add-On Modifier" section in the "Subject Index" (the 2nd post) in https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/208141/how-to-use-dforce-creating-a-blanket-draping-clothes-on-furniture-and-much-more-commercial/p1

     

    These are not videos, but they are some example scenes you can download and interactively experiment with (with some summary instructions that are admittedly less than "Tutorial" grade):

    A simple bouncing ball NB: Requires DAZ Studio v4.11.0.236 or later

    Various bouncing stuff NB: Requires DAZ Studio v4.12.0.47 or later

     

    melissastjames said:

    So if I'm reading correctly, there needs to be two separate figures to add the dynamics to...one, a shirt for example, would be the dynamic object, and then there would be buttons or a clip or whatever that would be the add-on. So you couldn't use this on a piece of clothing that was all one mesh, like a shirt with buttons that were all one piece. I think that's what I'm trying to get at. 

    In my (limited) experience, a dForce Add-On Structure can be used only to link selected Vertices of a single mesh - I have not got it to work linking 2 separate meshes together.  This script lets you link pairs of Vertices of a mesh: http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dazstudio/4/referenceguide/scripting/api_reference/samples/geometry/generate_polyline_dynamic_surface_addon/start

     

    It seems that the purpose of an Add-On is to provide some 3D structure to dForce simulations which would otherwise be limited to mostly-2D "cloth-like" effects.

    The Add-On consists of Vertices linked by Polylines: A  Polyline is a line that links 2 Vertices.  Potentially, the line could consist of multiple segments, but I have used and encountered only single-segment lines, i.e. like the Edges of a mesh, but the Add-On mesh has no Facets, just these lines, each of which acts like a spring in the dForce simulation.  Unlike a normal dForce Dynamic Surface, an Add-On has no automatically-generated Shear or Bending springs - only the springs you specify via Polylines.

    The Add-On interacts with the Dynamic Surface mesh by having some of its Vertices co-incident with relevant Vertices of the Dynamic Surface:  Studio automatically "welds" the Add-On to the Dynamic Surface at those  points, causing the Add-On Polyline springs to affect the dynamics of the Surface.

    Enuff "lexical" stuff... cheeky

     

    Thanks Praxis.

    I'm kinda getting the idea, but probably makes a good case for a vid or two. ;)

     

  • NorthOf45NorthOf45 Posts: 5,733

    Okay, I've been tooling around with the polylines and vertices, but they just don't seem to do anything or have any effect. I went back and followed the instructions with that cylinder cutout in the How to Use dForce: Creating a Blanket, Draping Clothes on Furniture, and Much More [Commercial] thread mentioned above, but all they do is stretch out with no resistance. The final simulation is exactly the same with or without the Dynamic Surface Add-on using those polylines.

    I am using 4.11.0.383, but the tutorial used an earlier beta version (4.11.0.231). Does it work in 4.12? Did something get dropped or modified? What am I missing?

    Both cylinders are identical (duplicate the Node hierarchies, with dForce Modifier Weight Nodes), one has the polylines. Yes, the cylinder add-on has the dForce Modifier: Dynamic Surface Add-on. None of the simulation surface settings have any effect whatsoever.

    Dynamic Surface Add-on test.jpg
    800 x 378 - 80K
  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 11,715
    Mada said:

    The difference between using a weightmap to hold a shirt closed and a dynamic surface add on is with the weightmap you're basically painting the dynamic part out and its using the conforming position. With the add on you keep the full dynamic range but the polygons keep their position relative to each other even though they're not connected mesh. 

    Thank you for this.

  • duckbombduckbomb Posts: 585

    It's not exactly instructions, and it isn't free, but the DAL video that accompanies the above mentioned thread is really great at giving a base-level rundown on Dforce.  It talks about the modifier... not a ton, but enough to understand the basics of what it is and what it is for.

    https://www.daz3d.com/new-dforce-discoveries

  • duckbombduckbomb Posts: 585

    It's not exactly instructions, and it isn't free, but the DAL video that accompanies the above mentioned thread is really great at giving a base-level rundown on Dforce.  It talks about the modifier... not a ton, but enough to understand the basics of what it is and what it is for

    https://www.daz3d.com/new-dforce-discoveries

  • PraxisPraxis Posts: 275
    edited March 2020
    Doc Acme said:
    Thanks Praxis.

    I'm kinda getting the idea, but probably makes a good case for a vid or two. ;)

    You're welcome.  When it comes to tutorials I much prefer Text+Pictures to Audio+Video, but I know many feel the other way.

    There is the video version of RGcincy's excellent tutorial, and today its 40% off:  Powerful dForce Discoveries and Solutions

    (This product is the 1st video tutorial. The product referenced by duckbomb above is the 2nd, also 40% off today, and probably more relevant to this thread).

    Post edited by Praxis on
  • PraxisPraxis Posts: 275
    edited March 2020

    Removed duplicate post.

    Post edited by Praxis on
  • Doc AcmeDoc Acme Posts: 1,153

    I'll add those to my Wish list but for now I've enough plates spinning up on the sticks. Also, be interesting to see what shakes out in this thread.

     

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 109,000
    NorthOf45 said:

    Okay, I've been tooling around with the polylines and vertices, but they just don't seem to do anything or have any effect. I went back and followed the instructions with that cylinder cutout in the How to Use dForce: Creating a Blanket, Draping Clothes on Furniture, and Much More [Commercial] thread mentioned above, but all they do is stretch out with no resistance. The final simulation is exactly the same with or without the Dynamic Surface Add-on using those polylines.

    I am using 4.11.0.383, but the tutorial used an earlier beta version (4.11.0.231). Does it work in 4.12? Did something get dropped or modified? What am I missing?

    Both cylinders are identical (duplicate the Node hierarchies, with dForce Modifier Weight Nodes), one has the polylines. Yes, the cylinder add-on has the dForce Modifier: Dynamic Surface Add-on. None of the simulation surface settings have any effect whatsoever.

    There was an issue with polylines as dForce Add-ons - see

    http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dazstudio/4/change_log_4_12_0_86#4_12_0_45
    http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dazstudio/4/change_log_4_12_0_86#4_12_0_66

    so make sure you are using a current General Release/Public Build version of DS.

  • NorthOf45NorthOf45 Posts: 5,733

    Ah, thanks. Still gun-shy about the current general release, and I don't do betas. I'll wait, but good to know.

  • elFletchelFletch Posts: 8

    It seems that the addon is just an awkward way of defining springs.

  • felisfelis Posts: 6,046

    The purpose of these is to be able to add springs which is not part of the basic mesh, e.g. if you have a shirt with different stages of buttons open / closed.

Sign In or Register to comment.