V8 (and others) texture improvement discussion
SnowSultan
Posts: 3,773
I thought I'd share a few settings and see if anyone has their own suggestions or improvements that could help make this texture look better. Maybe if we come up with something good, we can do it with more textures...quite a few could actually benefit from a little tweaking.
* Scene: HDR only (Studio Small 5, free for download here:(https://hdrihaven.com/hdri/?c=studio&h=studio_small_05), strength 1.00, rotation 22.66, Spectral Rendering On (faithful cie1931), 5000 iterations, tone mapping all default except crush blacks and burn highlights set to 0.00, max path 8, pixel filter: gaussian 1.20.
* Genesis 8 Female, rendered at subD 3, default pose, V8 Head and V8 Head HD at 37%
* Left image: Victoria 8 default, blue eye option, V8 fibermesh brows, V8 eyelashes. No surface settings changed.
* Center image: Victoria 8 skin texture with surface adjustments (below), Lilianna Eyes 06, V8 eyelashes, V8 fibermesh brows.
* Right image: same as Center, but run through Skin Builder 8 to add detail and new brows. No additional surface adjustments.
surface edits:
- reduced bump map on skin and lips from 5 to 4.
- dual lobe specular weight: 1.00 (0.61 for lips)
- dual lobe specular reflectivity: 1.00 (0.50 for lips)
- specular lobe 1 roughness: 0.67 (0.25 for lips)
- specular lobe 2 roughness: 0.69 (0.26 for lips)
- transmitted measurement distance: 0.12 (not positive this was changed)
- scattering measurement distance: 0.015 (not positive this was changed)
- SSS color: 0.95, 0.49, 0.43
I think this is a fair improvement, but please share any suggestions you might have too, like your favorite eye or lacrimal textures, any additional detail maps (SSS, bump, etc), or surface adjustments if you have any. Thanks in advance and thanks for looking.
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This is what I came up with, however I turned the tonemapper off to render linear. I used the same HDR you did and same rotation you mentioned but had to dial it down since tonemapper was off to 0.00006 so that it was exposed where I could see it. I also used Spectral faithful but cie1964. It needs work but I fussed with settings for long enough in a single go and it's break time. I removed the bump map from its bump channel and used a different map from V8's textures set for height in the Top Coat section. I will post some screenshots if anyone wants to mimic it. I also changed up the SSS but will put that in also after I break for a bit.
Linear direct render, opened in PS only to export as jpg:
Tonemapped in PS:
The scleras (eyewhites) look really good, can you tell me where they came from or if you edited their settings? Did you add brows from Skin Builder too?
Forgot to mention in my hunger that I also added a spotlight behind the head to try and check for SSS, which I never got it where I want (SSS that is, not spotlight). Eyebrows are from Chevybabe's Beautiful Brows and using the "soft angled eyebrow8" (https://www.daz3d.com/beautiful-brows-for-genesis-8-females). Ok here is a breakdown for what I did with some screenshots:
Scleras are the default that came with V8. I went into "Layered Image Editor" on both the "Base Color" and "Translucency Color" and added a new layer with "Additive Blend" blend mode set to 20% opacity with white as the color. This lightened the scleras to where I was happy, at least with this lighting. I might have changed a setting within the sclera beside that but cannot recall but am posting ss of the surface tabs so it can be compared with default by whomever.
I turned cutout opacity for "EyeMoisture" surface to 0.
I am including ss for face surface tab since this can pretty much serve as a template for what was done for the rest of the skin surfaces.
What I recall, rest can be gleaned from ss's, is changing from PBR Metalicity/Roughness to PBR Specular/Glossines,
Translucency Weight 0.20,
Dual Lobe Spec Weight .65,
Dual Lobe Spec Reflectivity .5 and putting the Victoria8FaceS_1001.jpg in for the map on this slot,
Spec Lobe 1 Gloss .5,
Spec Lobe 2 Gloss .3,
Dual Lobe Spec Ratio .85,
Glossy Layered Weight 1.00 and also put in the map for Victoria8FaceS_1001.jpg in this slot,
Glossiness .7,
Refraction Index 1.39,
Top Coat Weight 1.00 and input Victoria8FaceSSS_1001.jpg in this channel,
Top Coat Glossiness 1.00 with the same Victoria8FaceS_1001.jpg from above in for map,
Top Coat Layering Mode set to Fresnel,
Top Coat IOR 1.39,
Top Coat Bump Mode set to Height Map (default I think),
Top Coat Bump 7.00 (*Setting this higher than other bump will cause seams so set all top coat heights to same value if you dont have something coverying it up like in this case would be hair where seam is*) using the Victoria8FaceS_1001.jpg for this (the other skin layers this was set to 1.00 for bump and also I forgot to mention that I removed the regular bump map from its channel and set to 0),
Scattering Measurement Distance -1.00,
SSS Color 1.00 0.00 0.00,
SSS Direction -0.75
The screenshot is really crude but hopefully is easy enought to sift through. I feel like i'm forgetting something....
You're putting way more work into this than is necessary. :) I found a light set that I think is better for testing (DimensionTheory's Lightprobe Expansion 5, #32 soft), and that tiny adjustment to the SSS color I made in my original post seems to work on other characters too. I'm doing a Charlotte 8 render now that looks really good with those small adjustments and it's also the first time I've seen noticable SSS in a spectral render.
I'm not sure I can see any real difference that your top coat and SSS settings are making though. Doesn't mean they're not, but I would have expected to see either some gloss or a strong bump with those coat settings.
Also, how do you post a full-sized image directly into a reply? Do you have to link to an image hosted elsewhere? I've never been able to figure that out, haha.
Ha, I was just interested in trying to change things and by my own nature (nothing in this thread drove me to it) I began to tinker with things until I got something I liked. I sometimes get focused in...
After you attach the image and save your post just right click the image and open in new window and copy that URL in address bar. Come back to your post and click the cog to edit it and put your cursor where you want to put the image at and click on the picture icon in the top bar just to the right of the flag to insert image and paste that url. Give it some kind of description and make sure the longest side is set to no more than 800 pixels in length (may have changed since I was told in 2017) and then save. Get the pixel length right or you will be modded swiftly.
Thank you very much, that worked just fine. Of course, feel free to share any settings you like, it just sounded like you were knocking yourself out and I don't want anyone stressing over this stuff. ;)
Yeah, the laser focus losing track of time can be great for the company I work for but sucks when I get some jelly on the side of the bread...
Here's the Charlotte 8 render with similar SSS settings and that DimensionTheory light preset. It's pretty amazing how the quality of eyes is determined by lighting, these eyes looked a bit bad in the HDRI Haven one. I wish the lips had a slightly more defined spec map (so it's not so smooth), and I should have reduced the bump on the skin, but I like how this came out.
Here is my take on her.
For these, I used ElianeCK Face and Body Lights B. Instead of using Victoria 8's preset, I applied bluejaunte Sina's preset. Then all I did was swap back in Vicky's diffuse and SSS maps. I also changed the translucency color to max white because I thought her skin was a bit lifeless and yellow otherwise. I also used Sina's glossy lip preset, which does not change the lip color just the gloss settings. Like I said, I only swapped back in those two skin maps, her eyes are also Sina's. The eyelashes are not part of the preset and so are still Vicky's.
You could also swap back in Vicky's normal and/or bump maps as well. However I don't think its necessary unless you want to add a few more years to Vicky's look.
I use this technique with a lot of other characters. That is, I apply a bluejaunte character's material preset and then swap back in other textures. Sina and Murphy and my main go to presets for this purpose, but others can work, too.
Looks pretty good, thanks for the info. I think I want to experiment with Rune 7 and Olympia 7 next because I wasn't really that impressed with their default settings. Rune is a good texture but I haven't had a lot of luck getting the skin to look as realistic as the newer figures so far.
I recently picked up Rune on one of the sales last week. I am inclined to try NGS on her. Let us know anything you come up with for her.
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Rune might be an interesting test for that. Which reminds me Rune might also be a good test for my new G3 to G8 converter.
increase the bump on the lips
I should have a Rune example ready tomorrow. Mostly just edited the SSS and specular settings as before.
As for crush blacks and burn highlights it all depends if you want to simulate human eyes or actual cameras. Human eyes tend to adapt to light conditions and rebuild a mental image of the subject, that's what turning off crush & burn does, since you get the full linear range this way. On the contrary an actual camera will mostly crush some blacks and burn some highlights depending on the camera iso settings and lighting conditions. Then burn highlights is also useful to get better rim lights that are difficult to achieve without.
As for max path I'd not fiddle with it, you risk to miss important details for reflections refractions and diffuse bouncings this way. And iray seems quite good to me in handling the ray bouncings. At least I didn't notice great speedups by reducing bouncings. Unless there's a "trap" in the scene such as a white closed box with a lamp inside, that's suicide for a path tracker.
As for the gaussian filter keep in mind that 1.2 is the radius in pixel, so you get 2.4 as the area of influence. Then it all depends if you like crisp or smoothed images.
That's some excellent information Padone, thank you.
* I make fantasy renders exclusively, so I don't need to simulate a camera. :) Also, having them on makes it very hard to accurately preview how textures will look when making them in Substance Painter, so I keep crush and burn off by default.
* What max path do you recommend then, the default of -1?
* Do you recommend staying with Mitchell at 1.0 or 1.5 then for sharp images?
Thanks again.
Eh, I've still got a ways to go on improving my Rune 7 settings, if they can really be improved much anyway. Left pic is the default Genesis 3 Rune 7 pre-load, no adjustments. Right pic is Rune 7's textures on Genesis 8, no face morph, some SSS adjustments, V8 lashes. Also no idea how mine got so glossy, I made a point to turn the roughness up. Will have to double check that.
Are the nostril shadows actually on the tip of the nose? Never noticed that before, but the UV settings are correct (they're not even changed on the default one).
You know what, instead of trying to improve textures that don't really need improving, why don't we share our favorite bits and pieces of textures that can be kitbashed with others to improve the overall look? I'd forgotten how good Rune's normal maps are, you get detailed veins and some muscular details without the need for HD morphs.
Ya some OG textures are freakin amazing. I certainly think tweaking the settings can really get you some amazing results. I will mess around with Rune tonight or tomorrow as I have time (series of renders cooking). Ophelia really amazed me when i discovered her but Rune seems the not quite Amazon version of her and I am excited to poke around and see what's what with her. Snow you have some amazing renders on DA and Outrider your version looked really good here! I am sure there is alot that can be done to accentuate what is already available. Hopefully more will chime in with some top secret trickery to bring it all to the next level...
Thanks, and yeah I'm finding that some older G3 textures really had some nice details that I need to try on G8 figures.I kinda brushed off my G3 content when I moved up to G8, but going through these textures has made me want to experiment with them more.
Speaking of which, I kinda ran into a weird problem...right after I made those Rune 7 renders, I accidentally saved the scene over the default Rune 7 preset. I then uninstalled and reinstalled Rune to put the original back in, but the preset now loads a default G3F and the Rune morphs (head, body, and full) do nothing. I then reinstalled the Genesis 3 Female essentials, and that didn't fix the problem either. Rune's morphs are the only ones not working, so I assume something to do with the actual morph controllers or how Genesis 3 is reading them has been damaged. Does anyone have any ideas on what I can do to try and fix this now?
On Rune's nose, that is the normal map giving her nose that look. Take a look at her normal map and you will see the marks above the nostrils. You can edit them out by blending in the nearby area above them.
I baked Rune's textures to the G8 UV, and used the new XTransfer to move her to Genesis 8. So these are all G8 Rune. I'll be doing just what I did before by applying bluejaunte Sina material preset as a base and adding Rune's diffuse, translucency, and normal maps back in. I set the translucency to 55 for this pic because the 88 that Sina uses is too much. The normals are set to 1. Those are the only changes to the Sina preset aside from the texture swaps. These also use ElaineCK lights. First the default Rune 7 to compare.
You might spot a tiny mark above the ear, this is from the texture baking process. Good grief, whoever came up with the unique UV map for each core character concept needs to be slapped with a fish. Now we have to face all of these headaches thanks to such short sighted decisions. I can fix the texture, but man this is annoying.
Now the "BJ Sina Rune".
Rune's normals are really strong, but I like where this is going. I decided to make one more but with 65 translucency.
Grab some fibermesh brows and this might work. I went ahead and tried that, and I changed the normals to 0.7 and gave her a hair.
And bang! Rune is now a folk singer!
I kinda like the 2nd one at 65 translucency the best, but they all look good. Yeah thank heavens DAZ seems to have moved away from the original UVs with Genesis 8 stuff - we'll all be thankful for that when the first G8 to G9 texture converter comes out. ;)
I'm rendering all of my default G3F characters one by one to make a collage and get an idea of what I have just sitting around in my content library. :) Will post it when it's done and we can see what looks good and what can be improved. Might be useful for people looking to pick up cheap G3 characters during a future sale too.
I think this video made the original v8 textures very realistic looking. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1xN9zvlC3Q especially because of the increased bump mapping. It uses free software called Materialize to do it (like a magic button).
Yeah, thats a good video. I used that video as a reference and materialize for my textures when I was using Octane primarily. I have not tried it in iRay yet but I think that would be excellent to try.
Yeah Rune is nice. Here is what I came out with. Mainly the eyes were very flat and unappealing so I worked first on the Sclera, Iris, Pupil and Cornea (set cutout to 0 for moisture). For the lips and body I moved bump to Top Coat Height channel with 7 as the value. I removed normal maps from the skin materials as well as the bump maps form the original bump channels in skin. I will get some screenshots later for the eye settings as they were numerous to get this.
very interesting thread
keep it going pls
Yes for max path I'd stay with the default -1 that leaves control to iray. As for sharp images lanczos 0.8 is probably good enough. You will notice better fine details.
Thanks again Padone. Never tried anything below 1.0 though, the render time worries me a little but I'll try it out.
I posted a huge Genesis 3 female character comparison over on deviantArt, would like to post it here too but it's just way too big. Here's a link:
http://fav.me/ddm4nc3
Seeing all of my Genesis 3 textures together will help me pick out bits and pieces that I like (for example, Lien has really nice eyelashes and Olympia appears to have a specialized SSS map), and which ones need a bit of surface tweaking to be presentable. Hope it can help.