Some legal questions
onix
Posts: 282
The question is if I want to distribute derivative work from lest say Genesis 8 character but distribute it, not as morph but as some kind of base geometry is that possible to do in any way legally?
this is not intended to be separate independent item but addon to the base figure similar to geograft.
Also technically, even if I create geograft, by design, it inevitably contains a portion of the base figure geometry, so that already counts as derivative work and thus it is illegal to distribute but seems that it is not causing any legal problems.
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You should probably put in a support ticket with the details of what you want to do and get a proper answer.
Yeh, put in a support ticket; get professional legal advice.
... free lawyers/legal advise is worth every penny you have spent on it.
I doubt if they will care to or waste time discussing it because they are busy.
I just wonder if this is legally possible or if pretty much everything you create for Daz studio is the property of Daz company and you have no rights to your work at all.
What are the experiences of other people on this issue or methods to get around this problem?
For example, maybe it is possible to distribute your work as some kind of script that converts one figure into another?
Is there any way to be absolutely sure you do everything legally right so that nobody can make any legal complaints.
That looks like the fallacy of the excluded middle
Derivative products need to be set up in a way that requires the base item - so morphs are fine, theya re just changes in vertex positon and do nothing on their own. GeoGrafts are generally fine as they need the base figure to graft to and have relatively little of the original mesh and UVs included. If you want to do something like an extra set of arms it is usually expected that you will model your own, though a script to build the arms from the base woudl be Ok (as it wouldn't include the base model, just the changes to be made). To get a definitive answer you do need to open a ticket, for Sales Support I would suggest, and give a fuller description of what you want to do.
Only Daz can give you a real answer on this subject. Usually distributing a derivative mesh is not allowed, though Daz has sometimes allowed specific products which used tools like RTE encoding to ensure they require the base product, for example.
You really need to contact them and explain them what you want to do.
As a general rule...using any part of the mesh is illegal.
For specific exceptions you would need an agreement signed with DAZ
Thanks for giving me your attention :)
In my specific situation, I want to modify the existing figure but avoid Daz artificial limitations that are deliberately created to make it impossible.
And since Daz artificially implemented those limitations to cripple their product I am worrying that they may be unhappy about me trying to remove them. Otherwise, they would have done it already.
But If I understand correctly, If I make a script which builds it from the base figure and it will not contain any original geometry it will be absolutely legal and impossible to take down even if Daz will dislike it existing.
You seem to be totally ignoring the suggestion that has come from most all the posters to this thread. You need to contact Daz and explain this all to them directly, as you are obviously not listening to the information you are getting in this thread. For a start the base figure is the original geometry and the EULA states quite clearly
Contact CS I think probably Tech Support is the relevant dept link them to this thread so they can see what you have said you want to do.
That's absolutely not what Richard said.
I'm not sure what you mean by artificial restrictions, but you can always build your own figure from scratch (or other content with more permissive terms in the respects that interest you) and rig it in DS, it will then be up to you how you use it (the software EULA does not place restrictions on content that doesn't derive from Daz items).
There is a prohibition in the EULA on reverse engineering which might be an issue for what you wish to do. Also, note that anyone you wished to use the modified version would have to run the script locally - the end product is still a drivative.
Uh, how would you build something from a base figure and also not contain any original geometry? How exactly do you envision that working?
I mean, you could sculpt a new figure and use Daz Studio to rig it and do weight maps... but that's not using a base figure.
Well ok, the issue is that Daz deliberately created genesis figures with very low poly count to make them practically useless for anything but toy use.(there is not even enough detail for rib morphs or proper facial expressions) They essentially can be treated as the demo version of the full thing and if you want something more you have to buy HD morphs that cannot be created on your own.
I have seen discussions about this on the forums and look like this is a touchy topic which Daz people do not want to discuss or even mention.
I want to get rid of that limitation by modifying genesis figures into something more useful and yet backward compatible with the existing content. that is a pretty messy thing and stupid idea when genesis figures could be already shipped with higher polycount, but there is no better choice than make some workarounds.
So essentially it should be HD genesis version somewhat compatible will all existing morphs and poses as well as existing geografts
Sure it could be possible to create an entirely new replacement for genesis figures but they will be worth nothing if existing content will be incompatible with them.
Well, that word NEED is exactly what I am discussing here.
Before getting into the direct discussion I have to know the situation, my rights, what to expect and what are my arguments.
Also, it just interesting how much power Daz has overall as for example it seems that they can easily close all other content stores or sites hosting any kind of Daz content for copyright infringement.
If I were thinking about contacting tech support about that I would rather ask them to make all that work unnecessarily instead of asking if I am allowed to undo what they did.
I just want to make genesis figures better and more useful, even if this goes against Daz intentions.
Either way I am just researching the situation not necessary it will turn into some real thing.
Why not?
You mean that even if I make a script that modifies the existing figure I am still at the mercy of Daz and they can just tell me to stop it because they do not want that kind of improvement to exist.
You’re creating a derivative of their property. So yes, they can definitely decide what is allowed and what is not, and whether you used a script or any other tool to do it doesn’t change that.
Either English is not your first language or you have no idea what you're talking about. Poly count has nothing to do with whether there can be rib morphs or better, more detailed I assume, expressions.
If you don't like how they handle their model, make your own. Absolutely nobody will stop you.
Other people have tried before, on a number of other stores, trying to fulfill various other goals.
that pretty easy
you create a script that modifies the base figure it is not even intended to be a separate figure but unfortunately, it has to be.
consider this idea, as we make geograft resembling victoria 4/genesis 1 and fit it on the genesis 8. this way we get to use V4 textures and g1 morps on G8 with its advanced rigging and morphs.
in fact, it could be theoretically possible to create some monster figure which contains all morphs from G1 to G8 and has compatibility with all textures and geografts
But I wonder if that would be legal.as imagine that if Daz decides that this compatibility breaks their business and demands to cease distribution of such item
My question was more as if Daz can just tell you to stop distributing something they don't like without any reason.
... if you are modifying the base figure, it's based on that figure.
No, there's no magic way to make something derivitive not count as derivitive.
I don't see how they can just tell you to stop distributing something they don't like without any reason, but 'this is derived from their intellectual property' is, in fact, a reason.
If you don't want to contact Daz, you could also hire a lawyer. I think they might be able to give you initial feedback before charging you.
While we can argue until the cows come home about whether Daz should have locked out HD morphs, there are very good reasons not to have made the base figure any more detailed.
Subdividing and adding HD detail to a model is in practical terms easy. Decimating a model when it just needs to be in the back of the scene where you cannot see any fine details and it's wasting your memory and processing power is a much more technically complex problem.
In any case, Daz have every right here to say they do not want anyone making such a derivative of their mesh for distribution. The only way to go ahead is with their permission (and there are a few such products on the store that do that sort of thing), as a court of law would rule in their favour.
if it is based off their property, they can and will. I have seen them have files pulled off other sites
based off what you are saying, the genesis figures are perfectly usable inside Daz Studio with subdivision and HD morphs. I see nothing wrong with you creating a script to make the figures HD or high poly "inside" Daz Studio. Now if your intention is to create high poly characters for use in other apps other than Daz Studio, there in lies the problem.
If you are doing a derivative, you are infringing on Daz' EULA if you are not setting it up where the user must use the Daz figure on which it is based. But as just about everyone in the thread has advised, contact Daz. You can receive no definitive answer here in a peer-to-peer forum.
Daz the company is the only entitiy that can give you a definitive answer to your question.
Laurie
well, that is more or less what I am trying to find out here
but you got me wrong because I would distribute the tool to modify existing items not the derivative of the item itself. and even that modified item follows their EULA as it is designed for DAZ
although it would be simple if I could just distribute it without all those workarounds.
Well, this is what they don't want to talk about.
If for example, you don't know proper smile requires small wrinkles near the eyes. aka "laugh wrinkles" they cannot be made using normal Daz functionality but can be done using HD morphs. so you will never make proper laugh emotion without that. also you cannot really make any realistic characters that do not look like dolls without use of some bump maps or other texturing stuff.
Instead of all that SubD interpolation, Daz could just release model with higher polycount and then use different resolution levels to save memory if necessary, but G8 is made to be the lowest, possible polycount regardless the fact that technology improved in orders of magnitude during that time and now some simple hair item has far more detail than entire body.
In fact, the newest G8 is less detailed than the oldest models like V4 or G2 which makes any custom sculpting next to impossible.
there was absolutely no reason to do it if different resolutions are available and then do something so strange as HD morphs just to work around that artificial limitation
Daz intentions are pretty obvious here and they were even mentioned by developers in this same forum.
If you look at the G8 character rib area, you will see that mesh density is so low that you can barely fit 2 ribs there (maybe Daz has some policy against anorexia to make it impossible to model LOL)
If you try to add body piercings, scars wrinkles you will also end with problems because there is not enough geometry to model it
this extremely low geometry detail makes horrible problems for any customizations but oh well they can make a bit more money on HD morphs
So to fight that we can just create a modified genesis figure with polygon count in the range of millions with multiple resolutions, which will allow easy modeling and detailed morphs.
In general, it does not contradict license terms or common guidelines for content creation but it clearly goes against Daz intentions.
This is not what I want to do. I want to improve the existing one not to make my own useless thing.
They can't and won't. because my question is not what they allow me to do but wahst they can forbid me to do.
When I know that I can negotiate things.
No, of course, my intention is to use that figure inside Daz just as mentioned in the EULA I just wonder if they can just decide legally demand to stop distributing it simply because they dislike it.
We do not need to discuss that although I do not agree with anything you say about memory and decimation
My question is if Daz can prevent US from overcoming that limitation
I believe I definitely follow that part of EULA and have no intention to break it
all this discussion is just to gather some information about the situation as what Daz is most likely to do here.
Well, to put it simply, no.
You should contact Daz or a lawyer to be sure, and you could theoretically make a special deal with Daz beyond that.
You are bent on trying to get answers here that only Daz can provide and coming up with wild speculations about intent. The arguments are becoming circular, not because of the discussion, but because you have decided how things are from your point of view. At this point, it seems better to ask you for a final time to submit a query on these matters to Daz and close the thread.