Please List Items Used In Promos

JVRenderer · September 2019

Petercat said:

Matt_Castle said:

Petercat said:

Leana said:

Petercat said:

Leana said:

Petercat said:

You're not talking about using custom skins on the product that's being sold, are you?

As long as what is sold is not the character, why would that be a problem?

"I want promos that reflect what's in the package, not what it looks like with skins that aren't included."

Unless they’re selling a character (in which case of course they should use the character’s skin) they will always use “skins that aren’t included” if a human figure is in the promo pics.

I don't understand your point.. That's exactly what I was talking about!
A promo image for anything should only use the skins or textures that come with the purchased product, wether it be a character, a clothing item, or a prop.

Taking what you've said literally, you're ruling out pretty much every promo on the store, as they will use other products as part of the image, and thus necessarily have to use skins and textures that are not part of the product.

I think that what you mean is "Do not use other textures on the product you're actually selling", which is potentially confusing on the basis that many people will interpret it as something that should go without saying; the fact you've brought it up implies that it's something less obvious than that.

In any case, about the only time I can think that I've seen promos do something close to that is character shaping presets, which do (at least for all of the ones I can recall buying) list the skins used, as well as specifically mentioning that the textures are not included. While I will concede that some such promos omit clay renders of the morphs (and don't thus give much idea of what they look like without the skins), the promos still can't exactly be accused of misrepresenting what is actually included; if anything, a lack of clay renders is more likely to cost the artist a sale than it is to lead a customer to inadvertently purchase.

(And I certainly know that having seen the morphs with skins has on occasions actually encouraged me to purchase both the morphs and some of the skins, so not exactly an uncanny tactic).

"I want promos that reflect what's in the package, not what it looks like with skins that aren't included."
I was talking about the product being sold, and specifically said skins. Never mentioned anything else. Skins. Never mind, you want to deliberately mis-state what I actually said, so...
I give up. Collect whatever points that gets you and be happy.

A promo is just what it says. to promote the product(s). Promos are to make the product attractive just like TV commercials.
What you want is specifications, which are listed with every products sold. Daz made sure of that before the product(s) go on sale.

Can you imagine every product have clay renders only and only show the product(s) being sold. How boring will the market place be?

Petercat · September 2019

JVRenderer said:

Petercat said:

Matt_Castle said:

Petercat said:

Leana said:

Petercat said:

Leana said:

Petercat said:

You're not talking about using custom skins on the product that's being sold, are you?

As long as what is sold is not the character, why would that be a problem?

"I want promos that reflect what's in the package, not what it looks like with skins that aren't included."

Unless they’re selling a character (in which case of course they should use the character’s skin) they will always use “skins that aren’t included” if a human figure is in the promo pics.

I don't understand your point.. That's exactly what I was talking about!
A promo image for anything should only use the skins or textures that come with the purchased product, wether it be a character, a clothing item, or a prop.

Taking what you've said literally, you're ruling out pretty much every promo on the store, as they will use other products as part of the image, and thus necessarily have to use skins and textures that are not part of the product.

I think that what you mean is "Do not use other textures on the product you're actually selling", which is potentially confusing on the basis that many people will interpret it as something that should go without saying; the fact you've brought it up implies that it's something less obvious than that.

In any case, about the only time I can think that I've seen promos do something close to that is character shaping presets, which do (at least for all of the ones I can recall buying) list the skins used, as well as specifically mentioning that the textures are not included. While I will concede that some such promos omit clay renders of the morphs (and don't thus give much idea of what they look like without the skins), the promos still can't exactly be accused of misrepresenting what is actually included; if anything, a lack of clay renders is more likely to cost the artist a sale than it is to lead a customer to inadvertently purchase.

(And I certainly know that having seen the morphs with skins has on occasions actually encouraged me to purchase both the morphs and some of the skins, so not exactly an uncanny tactic).

"I want promos that reflect what's in the package, not what it looks like with skins that aren't included."
I was talking about the product being sold, and specifically said skins. Never mentioned anything else. Skins. Never mind, you want to deliberately mis-state what I actually said, so...
I give up. Collect whatever points that gets you and be happy.

A promo is just what it says. to promote the product(s). Promos are to make the product attractive just like TV commercials.
What you want is specifications, which are listed with every products sold. Daz made sure of that before the product(s) go on sale.

Can you imagine every product have clay renders only and only show the product(s) being sold. How boring will the market place be?

What the heck are you talking about? I never even mentioned clay promos! Nor did I say anything about specifications! Maybe I should re-post my original statement?
I'm beginning to think that you're responding to someone else's post. Because whatever you're responding to has no relationship with anything I've said.

"You're not talking about using custom skins on the product that's being sold, are you?
I want promos that reflect what's in the package, not what it looks like with skins that aren't included.
Adding customized clothing and props is okay, I know I'm not buying them with the product."

RawArt · September 2019

Petercat said:

JVRenderer said:

What the heck are you talking about? I never even mentioned clay promos! Nor did I say anything about specifications! Maybe I should re-post my original statement?
I'm beginning to think that you're responding to someone else's post. Because whatever you're responding to has no relationship with anything I've said.

"You're not talking about using custom skins on the product that's being sold, are you?
I want promos that reflect what's in the package, not what it looks like with skins that aren't included.
Adding customized clothing and props is okay, I know I'm not buying them with the product."

I don't think you are being as clear in what you are saying as you think you are.

I have been following this thread and it does read like you are asking for promos to be done without skins materials applied.

Maybe you can find another way to restate what it is exactly what you are looking for.

Carola O · September 2019

I think what he mean is that when it is a complete character (not only a morph), than That character should only be shown with the textures that comes with it.

Though I don't understand why he felt that was needed to point out, since I don't know of any full character that is being seen with another texture than its own in the promos. I suspect there's some missunderstanding somewhere along the line :) Lord knows I can missunderstand things something horrible at times *laughs*

DreamingGirl · September 2019

Petercat said:

Cris Palomino said:

I think it's a good idea to have care for how things are said.

PAs don't want this or want that. That is a generalization which basically colors the group with a wide brush. In fact, in most cases, it's one PA, a couple, a few, some, depending on the circustances involved.

There are many PAs who are very generous with their knowledge and time to help customers understand the products they purchase or want help achieving the look of something the PA displayed in a promo. Some PAs will give specifics and others general pointers leaving you to experiment and find what works best for your particular scene. Some PAs, especially for environments, even give scene setups that include lighting. You'll note that if you change anything about the scene, it may completely impact if the scene ends up looking like the promo from which it came.

I agree with esha. I'm in the process of doing promos atm. I make so many changes trying to get just the right looking promo that I can easily lose track of what I used. I still try to list what I used, but it just isn't always easy. And it adds work to a process which can already be so time-consuming. We should be focusing on showing off the product as best as possible for the customer.

We also kitbash a lot. That not only includes what's worn but which skins, maybe eyes from a different product than where the skin comes from, or fiber brows from another, and, in addition, customizing the surface settings. The environment, atmosphere, lights and what we did to them, HDRs and what rotation we chose or render settings. So even if we give you a list of everything we use, you still may not be able to make out everything that went into the final image you see.

You're not talking about using custom skins on the product that's being sold, are you?
I want promos that reflect what's in the package, not what it looks like with skins that aren't included.
Adding customized clothing and props is okay, I know I'm not buying them with the product.

And if I understand correctly, Pretty3D eventually decided to market his signature V4 character because she was so popular, even offering versions for newer generations.
As did hamelion at Rendo.

I think what Chris Palomino meant was that in a promo render for, say, a clothing set, you might use elements from many different characters, and if you list all of them in the credits, people are still going to ask 'What character is it?'

They were obviously not talking about a promo for an actual character for sale.

nicstt · September 2019

Folks make demands.

These demands have a cost implication. I prefer to keep the price down and quality up. Time spent listing products used takes away from those, so I prefer they keep it to a minimum.

If i really need to know I can ask in forum or raise a ticket.

nicstt · September 2019

Sevrin said:

Leana said:

Sevrin said:

I don't get PAs worrying about losing sales because they provided promo credits.

Who said anything about losing sales because of promo credits? What they’re losing is time, spent advertising products from other vendors rather than working on their own products and earning money.

That has nothing to do with protectionism or “not respecting other PAs”...

FenixPhoenix said:

JVRenderer said:

It was pretty harsh.

Good luck mandating free thinking creative individuals to give up their freedom to make choices in a somewhat free society.
I think it is best to leave the choice to the vendors to list the items used in their promos. It is unfair to make them promote other artists' products.

I've never seen a Coca Cola, McDonald's nor Nike list the make and model of the truck they use or the brand of clothing their models wear in their TV ads. Have you? Logically one should not mandate Daz Vendors to do the same.

All these 'what's this product used in the promo posts' are somewhat fun and very informative. I always get these 'omg', I owned these product but never used them! moments.

Peace and render on.

You beat me to it. I was going to use a similar example, lol. Though I do try to list the prominent things I used in my promos, understand that it's meant as a courtesy to other PAs and I wouldn't like it if it was a mandatory thing. After all, I am not being paid to advertise other products. In fact, just by listing other products from other PAs we run a risk of people opting to buy another product while putting ours in the wishlist if the customer has a limited Daz fund.

The fact is that PAs are benefitting from the creativity of others when they use their items to build their promos, just like we mere customers and they benefit from their status as PAs in obtaining those items.

It's a fact is it?

Male-M3dia · September 2019

nicstt said:

Sevrin said:

Leana said:

Sevrin said:

I don't get PAs worrying about losing sales because they provided promo credits.

Who said anything about losing sales because of promo credits? What they’re losing is time, spent advertising products from other vendors rather than working on their own products and earning money.

That has nothing to do with protectionism or “not respecting other PAs”...

FenixPhoenix said:

JVRenderer said:

It was pretty harsh.

Good luck mandating free thinking creative individuals to give up their freedom to make choices in a somewhat free society.
I think it is best to leave the choice to the vendors to list the items used in their promos. It is unfair to make them promote other artists' products.

I've never seen a Coca Cola, McDonald's nor Nike list the make and model of the truck they use or the brand of clothing their models wear in their TV ads. Have you? Logically one should not mandate Daz Vendors to do the same.

All these 'what's this product used in the promo posts' are somewhat fun and very informative. I always get these 'omg', I owned these product but never used them! moments.

Peace and render on.

You beat me to it. I was going to use a similar example, lol. Though I do try to list the prominent things I used in my promos, understand that it's meant as a courtesy to other PAs and I wouldn't like it if it was a mandatory thing. After all, I am not being paid to advertise other products. In fact, just by listing other products from other PAs we run a risk of people opting to buy another product while putting ours in the wishlist if the customer has a limited Daz fund.

The fact is that PAs are benefitting from the creativity of others when they use their items to build their promos, just like we mere customers and they benefit from their status as PAs in obtaining those items.

It's a fact is it?

It isn’t. I PAY for every single thing in my promos. People should stop speculating about things they know nothing of. It’s embarrassing to watch.. but hey this thread is looking like it’s on it’s way to the lock so I got my comment in ????

WendyLuvsCatz · September 2019

Well before the axe falls

PAs please have at least one image showing only the items for sale

a request

ChangelingChick · September 2019

nicstt said:

Sevrin said:

Leana said:

Sevrin said:

I don't get PAs worrying about losing sales because they provided promo credits.

Who said anything about losing sales because of promo credits? What they’re losing is time, spent advertising products from other vendors rather than working on their own products and earning money.

That has nothing to do with protectionism or “not respecting other PAs”...

FenixPhoenix said:

JVRenderer said:

It was pretty harsh.

Good luck mandating free thinking creative individuals to give up their freedom to make choices in a somewhat free society.
I think it is best to leave the choice to the vendors to list the items used in their promos. It is unfair to make them promote other artists' products.

I've never seen a Coca Cola, McDonald's nor Nike list the make and model of the truck they use or the brand of clothing their models wear in their TV ads. Have you? Logically one should not mandate Daz Vendors to do the same.

All these 'what's this product used in the promo posts' are somewhat fun and very informative. I always get these 'omg', I owned these product but never used them! moments.

Peace and render on.

You beat me to it. I was going to use a similar example, lol. Though I do try to list the prominent things I used in my promos, understand that it's meant as a courtesy to other PAs and I wouldn't like it if it was a mandatory thing. After all, I am not being paid to advertise other products. In fact, just by listing other products from other PAs we run a risk of people opting to buy another product while putting ours in the wishlist if the customer has a limited Daz fund.

The fact is that PAs are benefitting from the creativity of others when they use their items to build their promos, just like we mere customers and they benefit from their status as PAs in obtaining those items.

It's a fact is it?

We, as PAs, are also customers. Just like customers, we bought our goods to use in those promos. I recently released a product with 70 items listed in the products used. With the exception of the products that are my own, I paid for every single one of them, just like you did. We don't get a benefit from our status unless you mean we have goods to trade with other PAs. That's true. We can. But, you don't have to be a PA to make something to trade with. If you mean the PC+, I can personally assure you that any money "saved" from the membership is spent on buying products. PAs spend a *lot* of money, often times for less prolific PAs, more than they earn.

We do our best to credit when we can, but promos are something that are done over and over again for the same sets. It's ridiculous how many get tossed compared to the ones that get in the store. Sometimes it's just an html error and the credit is there. Sometimes we can't remember what we used, and we didn't save the scene file. Sometimes the scene files get lost, corrupted or deleted. We are hard on our machines. For the most part, we want to link to everything we use because our friends and coworkers made that stuff, and we want them getting the credit. But, just like users that don't credit their used assets in the galleries or DeviantArt or ArtStation, or game devs that get commercial licenses and don't credit what was used in their games, we don't always get it done.

So to sum up, we try to get everything listed. Sometimes our brains don't let us succeed. Sometimes life doesn't let us succeed. Often cats don't let us succeed. Once in a while a pushy dog.

nemesis10 · September 2019

Since I am on a roll for closing threads.... I should get off my duff and make a feature request so that the SKU on the product page links to the Product ReadMe which has a file list so that people could look at the promo, click on the SKU, read the file list and know what is in the product. A line could added that reminds them that only the things in the product list are include and everything else is not. They can then be directed to ask in the forum if they are interested in something that is not the product. The product page could have language reminding people that they are seeing a promo and to consult the file list to see what is included in detail.

WendyLuvsCatz · September 2019

If it is the frequently used Summoners Helmet of course it cannot be listed

FenixPhoenix · September 2019

nemesis10 said:
Since I am on a roll for closing threads.... I should get off my duff and make a feature request so that the SKU on the product page links to the Product ReadMe which has a file list so that people could look at the promo, click on the SKU, read the file list and know what is in the product. A line could added that reminds them that only the things in the product list are include and everything else is not. They can then be directed to ask in the forum if they are interested in something that is not the product. The product page could have language reminding people that they are seeing a promo and to cunsult the file list to see what is included in detail.

+1000

akmerlow · September 2019

FSMCDesigns said:

I can imagine a PA spending 6 months working on a project, having to deal with seams, reworking weight maps, trying to make grafts work correctly and when done, actually sitting down and being creattive with their new product and creating captivating promos to try and sell the product, only to have to spend extra time and energy looking up all the items they used in said promos so end users didn't have to do any of the work themselves.

From my point of view, it's more about...

please, please, please, pleeeeeaaaaaase tell me what is this awesome character you used, i want it too! and clothes, so marvelous set, where you've got it? aaaah!

nemesis10 · September 2019

akmerlow said:

FSMCDesigns said:

I can imagine a PA spending 6 months working on a project, having to deal with seams, reworking weight maps, trying to make grafts work correctly and when done, actually sitting down and being creattive with their new product and creating captivating promos to try and sell the product, only to have to spend extra time and energy looking up all the items they used in said promos so end users didn't have to do any of the work themselves.

From my point of view, it's more about...

please, please, please, pleeeeeaaaaaase tell me what is this awesome character you used, i want it too! and clothes, so marvelous set, where you've got it? aaaah!

and the customer getting angry because everything is custom or a product that was given by another vendor so not for sale or discontinued or so reworked as to be a new item and not commercially available...

Leana · September 2019

nemesis10 said:

Since I am on a roll for closing threads.... I should get off my duff and make a feature request so that the SKU on the product page links to the Product ReadMe which has a file list so that people could look at the promo, click on the SKU, read the file list and know what is in the product. A line could added that reminds them that only the things in the product list are include and everything else is not. They can then be directed to ask in the forum if they are interested in something that is not the product. The product page could have language reminding people that they are seeing a promo and to consult the file list to see what is included in detail.

Daz Deals browser add-on adds a link to the readme on product pages, among other useful features

Matt_Castle · September 2019

Petercat said:

Matt_Castle said:

Petercat said:

Leana said:

Petercat said:

Leana said:

Petercat said:

You're not talking about using custom skins on the product that's being sold, are you?

As long as what is sold is not the character, why would that be a problem?

"I want promos that reflect what's in the package, not what it looks like with skins that aren't included."

Unless they’re selling a character (in which case of course they should use the character’s skin) they will always use “skins that aren’t included” if a human figure is in the promo pics.

I don't understand your point.. That's exactly what I was talking about!
A promo image for anything should only use the skins or textures that come with the purchased product, wether it be a character, a clothing item, or a prop.

Taking what you've said literally, you're ruling out pretty much every promo on the store, as they will use other products as part of the image, and thus necessarily have to use skins and textures that are not part of the product.

I think that what you mean is "Do not use other textures on the product you're actually selling", which is potentially confusing on the basis that many people will interpret it as something that should go without saying; the fact you've brought it up implies that it's something less obvious than that.

In any case, about the only time I can think that I've seen promos do something close to that is character shaping presets, which do (at least for all of the ones I can recall buying) list the skins used, as well as specifically mentioning that the textures are not included. While I will concede that some such promos omit clay renders of the morphs (and don't thus give much idea of what they look like without the skins), the promos still can't exactly be accused of misrepresenting what is actually included; if anything, a lack of clay renders is more likely to cost the artist a sale than it is to lead a customer to inadvertently purchase.

(And I certainly know that having seen the morphs with skins has on occasions actually encouraged me to purchase both the morphs and some of the skins, so not exactly an uncanny tactic).

"I want promos that reflect what's in the package, not what it looks like with skins that aren't included."
I was talking about the product being sold, and specifically said skins. Never mentioned anything else. Skins. Never mind, you want to deliberately mis-state what I actually said, so...
I give up. Collect whatever points that gets you and be happy.

I am not "deliberately misstating what you actually said". You did say something other than "skins" - this post (the one I quoted) does mention "skins or textures". And that is genuinely my best attempt to interpret what you mean; If you're shooting that interpretation down, I seem to have even less idea what you're actually asking than I thought I did.

I'm autistic, so I'm just sometimes on a completely different wavelength to everyone else. Can you give some kind of example of what you mean? (Although I know the general rule is not to "call out" specific products, some kind of hypothetical descriptions of what a product needs to to comply/might do to break this rule would be very helpful.)

FenixPhoenix · September 2019

Leana said:

nemesis10 said:

Since I am on a roll for closing threads.... I should get off my duff and make a feature request so that the SKU on the product page links to the Product ReadMe which has a file list so that people could look at the promo, click on the SKU, read the file list and know what is in the product. A line could added that reminds them that only the things in the product list are include and everything else is not. They can then be directed to ask in the forum if they are interested in something that is not the product. The product page could have language reminding people that they are seeing a promo and to consult the file list to see what is included in detail.

Daz Deals browser add-on adds a link to the readme on product pages, among other useful features

Yeah, the browser add-on is amazing! But it would be awesome to be able to access the read me link through my cellphone as well. ;)

Petercat · September 2019

Matt_Castle said:

Petercat said:

Matt_Castle said:

Petercat said:

Leana said:

Petercat said:

Leana said:

Petercat said:

You're not talking about using custom skins on the product that's being sold, are you?

As long as what is sold is not the character, why would that be a problem?

"I want promos that reflect what's in the package, not what it looks like with skins that aren't included."

Unless they’re selling a character (in which case of course they should use the character’s skin) they will always use “skins that aren’t included” if a human figure is in the promo pics.

I don't understand your point.. That's exactly what I was talking about!
A promo image for anything should only use the skins or textures that come with the purchased product, wether it be a character, a clothing item, or a prop.

Taking what you've said literally, you're ruling out pretty much every promo on the store, as they will use other products as part of the image, and thus necessarily have to use skins and textures that are not part of the product.

I think that what you mean is "Do not use other textures on the product you're actually selling", which is potentially confusing on the basis that many people will interpret it as something that should go without saying; the fact you've brought it up implies that it's something less obvious than that.

In any case, about the only time I can think that I've seen promos do something close to that is character shaping presets, which do (at least for all of the ones I can recall buying) list the skins used, as well as specifically mentioning that the textures are not included. While I will concede that some such promos omit clay renders of the morphs (and don't thus give much idea of what they look like without the skins), the promos still can't exactly be accused of misrepresenting what is actually included; if anything, a lack of clay renders is more likely to cost the artist a sale than it is to lead a customer to inadvertently purchase.

(And I certainly know that having seen the morphs with skins has on occasions actually encouraged me to purchase both the morphs and some of the skins, so not exactly an uncanny tactic).

"I want promos that reflect what's in the package, not what it looks like with skins that aren't included."
I was talking about the product being sold, and specifically said skins. Never mentioned anything else. Skins. Never mind, you want to deliberately mis-state what I actually said, so...
I give up. Collect whatever points that gets you and be happy.

I am not "deliberately misstating what you actually said". You did say something other than "skins" - this post (the one I quoted) does mention "skins or textures". And that is genuinely my best attempt to interpret what you mean; If you're shooting that interpretation down, I seem to have even less idea what you're actually asking than I thought I did.

I'm autistic, so I'm just sometimes on a completely different wavelength to everyone else. Can you give some kind of example of what you mean? (Although I know the general rule is not to "call out" specific products, some kind of hypothetical descriptions of what a product needs to to comply/might do to break this rule would be very helpful.)

Nah, Matt. It's cool. I'm not a very social person. The best way that I can put it is I want to know exactly what I'm buying, what's included in the package.
For example, https://www.daz3d.com/imari-for-genesis-3-female (A great and versatile character). She comes with five different skins and they're shown in the promo images. If she was shown with a European or African skin, that would be deceptive and wrong, because they aren''t included.
Now look at the last promo image. Does the texture of the horse come with the horse when you buy it?
What horse? There's a horse? Nevermind. It doesn't matter, because the horse is not the product being sold. It's a prop, like the fence or the trees, that is illustrating the utility of the character.
I am actually in agrement with most of the posters here. Nicstt makes a good point, although I know from my own ventures that nothing is 100%. Creating a product is not enough, neither is offering it up for sale. You have to market it, bring attention to it, show what can be done with it, make people want to buy it. And that costs time and/or money. An artist who is creating for income must decide how much their time is worth to them, and allocate their time to all facets of the idea-to-marketplace process to maximize their income.
And hope that their target market agrees with the value they've placed on their time.
I wonder how many products here have been bought because someone saw a promo image that fired up their imagination? Enough to make it more than worthwile, I'm sure.

So what do I want in a promo image? Accurate depiction of the product. At least one image showing it in use. And at least one clay image.
Anything to make the buy/no buy decision easier.

ramasters · September 2019

I really appreciate people explaining why PAs don't do this, as I often wondered, and figured it would lead to more cross promo & sales across the store. I know a lot of times I've found myself wanting to buy 'all things pictured', and frustrated by trying to find different items. I do wish there were a more robust search engine with tags to help with this. There have been times I'd look something up by a certain keyword only to find it not listed because it was listed under something else (i.e. looking up bathing suit doesn't capture all the bikinis / swim trunks / etc.).

I also do find that, especially with environments, it's sometimes hard to tell if the promo includes objects not in the environment, as not every object is listed as a standalone object and are sometimes only available in the presets, so the list of what's included doesn't help.

Drip · September 2019

This thread is actually giving me an idea for a really simple April Fools joke for the Daz Store. Any place where ideas for that could be submitted?

Chohole · September 2019

Drip said:

This thread is actually giving me an idea for a really simple April Fools joke for the Daz Store. Any place where ideas for that could be submitted?

https://www.daz3d.com/community/community-publishing ?

DestinysGarden · September 2019

I'm very glad that Matt_Castle and Petercay may have figured out they were saying the exact same thing. If a character is the product, no other skins other than the one(s) being sold with the character should be in the promos, and I have not seen a case of that on the Daz store. If it is a morph only set, I typically see the textures used listed someplace. If it is a light set I would expect no postwork that would misrepresent the lights being sold, and I give 100% guarantee that any light sets in the store with my name on them will not do this. I postworked a promo once to smooth pokethrough on a dress on a figure instead of waiting X hours to find adjustment morphs and re-render, but that is it.

Other than that I believe others have covered why it is not always possible to include every single item used, as much as we may desire to do so.

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