Stereotypes and DAZ3D products
omradiocom
Posts: 66
I know a few people might not like this topic raised but I'm going to anyway.
Why do we repeatedly have to see shallow sterotypes for characters deployed for sale on Daz3d? I don't mean traditional clothing that can actually be helpful for creating scenes that are regional or culture specific, I'm mainly referring to the association of certain characters with themes that are far more stereotypical than accurate. Deploy a character like Diego and you have to put up a matador and cholo outfit? really? I live in a predominantly Mexican neighborhood and I rarely see anyone dressed like this. I do see the more people in the caballero outfit more often so that fits in some contexts. The Pancho look can be useful for some outfits. But there is an automatic association to these characters.
Launch an Arab character you then put out Ali Baba?
Launch a Chinese character and you put out the same tired kung fu man/woman motifs? (btw, I'm a long time Shaolin practitioner)
Maybe some of these items make sense to deploy together on some level but I do hope the DAZ3D company realizes how that plays out to people from these regions.
In some cases, they're so generic they are nearly only offensive. For example, more Native American tribes did not wear war bonnets than did. The Sioux, Cherokee, Cree and Blackfeet people used war bonnets, but they're very different if you look at the distinctions.
Turbans are another item often fused together. Turban is a very generic term so I get why there is confusion but there are more specific names for them based on region. For example, Sikh men headwear is called a dastar and are not the same as those worn by the Saharan touareg (blue men), those are called cheich, litham or tagelmust.
I can say the new Burqa outfit is indeed a burqa style instead of being mistaken with a niqab, khimar, chador or like having a hijab mixed up with an al-almira. Good job!
Daz3d is a great place to buy lots of clothing that is very culture specific and I know no offense is intended. Distinctions can only make the company appear more educated than first glance that sometimes indicates a distinct tone-deaf application to launching these products.
Thanks for your time and consideration.
Next time we'll discuss the implied sexism laden in the apparel and poses of women....
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Comments
Of course daz realizes this...but for sales building a theme gives a sale focus.
What would make more sense in a matador outfit? an old korean man or a latino character?
Sometimes you have to follow a cultural bias in the interest of focusing a product or a sale theme. But that does not mean that DAZ or PA's are so culturally naive. We all live in a large open world with many cultural backgrounds.
If I want to create a scene with a matador and a bullfight, there there is an option for that for me now thanks to DAZ and the creators. Same if I want to create an indian (excuse me, Native American says the person with Cherokee blood in family tree) scene where they are all wearing war bonnets. Point is, you don't have to use them but they need to exist for users that do.. Steroetypes exit because they actually exist/existed in real life. As for offending anyone, people will get offended over anything these days. best to just focus on creating and not worry about it IMO
As for Next time we'll discuss the implied sexism laden in the apparel and poses of women, i say we don't because that would be pointless and a watse of time.
This is something that will have a painfully slow evolution. When I started using Poser, in forums, people would suggest just changing the overall tone of characters to achieve a “black” character thus ignoring the fact that most people have roughly the same color palms and soles. It took many years before they made anatomically possible black people. I suspect that the audience can be strangely fixiated on certain things like having certain details correct ( imagine the uproar if a 3D guitar had the wrong number of strings or a dog had the wrong number of toes) but seem to stumble on accurately depicting the appearance of the bulk of the world’s population (I would love if only one of the various depictions of the practioners of voodoo didn’t look like a character from aloe grade Hollywood B movie and resembled more like anyone seen if one googled voodoo). It is strange since voodoo isn’t a majority religion in most places with black people.
If you mean that most people's palms and soles are the same as one another, then yes (approximately but not always true). If you mean that all people have the same color palms, then this is not accurate. There is a wide variety. All people have lighter palms/soles, but the degree of how much lighter is widely variable. In some people-- dark and light-- the difference is negligible. In some people-- dark and light-- the difference is stark.
Anatomical elements vary hugely too on both sexes
and nipple pigmentations
I always like the more focused packages. Generic packages probably help appeal to a wider audience, though.
Actually, if they could vary the bundles by time period, I'd rather have that. Sci Fi, Fantasy, Contemporary... 3 outfits that fit the character's stereotyped attributes across a span of time. Mostly I prefer Sci Fi, and bundles that skip Sci Fi make me less happy.
Also, Lilith 6 was the best Lilith package because it was so hyper-focused on a vision of Lilith.
Everything else in the Lilith line has been a shadow of that, IMO. All other Lilith bundles have been weaksauce because they were less wedded to the Lilith "type".
Promos are meant to inspire purchases. Yeah, you see latinos wearing gaucho pants, but you don't see them only wearing gaucho pants. What you will also find is that you'll see all gene ponds and pools fairly equally represented with "everyday" outfits, whether they be bikinis or business suits.
You also see whiter than white Daz characters wearing hijabs, which is actually pretty common where I live. Also sexy kimonos, which you don't see a lot of at the grocery store. Are we to worry about cultural appropriation in those cases? Should we not be allowed to include anyone we don't share ancestry with in our renders at all? How far should be be taking this?
It's not like Daz is denying anyone opportunities IRL by showing characters in costumes traditionally associated with their race. This is not a hill I'd want to die on if my intention were to raise awareness about inequality. #Justsaying
I meant the former... this represents the problem: https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/why-do-cosmetics-companies-keep-blacking-up-womens-hands-in-ads_uk_5b7143f9e4b0ae32af997c4c. There is a famous quote of Gertrude Stein about English shoes and how they looked like someone was tasked to make shoes without actually having seen any. In the early days of Posette and Michael, there wasn’t even an attempt to portray any accurate anatomy of anyone who wasn’t European. It would be lovely to be able to use a Daz character to depict someone who was Nigerian or South African or Morrocan they way I could simply find someone who fit the perceived image of someone who is Irish, or Russian, or Greek, or Spanish and maybe have them wear clothing that is appropriate. Nonetheless, if I may point out a Virginia Woolf's A Room of One's Own premise; If we want acccurate representations of ourselves, we must make them ourselves.
I know a lot of people who get triggered by stuff
not people of the ethnic, religious etc group in question either
IMHO, screw realism if you want to sell to me. I am not interested in reproducing the real world, or of telling stories set in the here and now.
- make outfits and props from historical settings.
- make outfits and props from “Hollywood ized” or “Bollywood ized” fanciful historical settings.
- make outfits and props predicting future settings.
- make outfits and props imagining fanciful future settings.
I respect and accept PAs and their customers who want realistic products reflecting actual Earth in the current time. In return, I ask that my preferences be respected and accepted. What others think is commonplace now might also be described as a stereotype by some people.
Would be so much simpler if we could just render people nude here
I do all the time, LOL
NVIATWAS anyone?
Good nude people renders are not as easy as you might think.
On topic. While it is nice to be accurate and avoid 'stereotypical stuff, but those stereotypical clothing do have a place in this wonderful virtual world of fantasy.
One just have to be reminded that breaking the rules is part of creative process.
All good and thoughtful comments. I raised the issue for discussion and that's what we have here, a good honest discussion.
as for being "triggered"...that word minimizes the voices of people who raise objections. It doesn't say much. I didn't write this for those who are "triggered" nor do I feel "triggered".
I am more concerned about the image of Daz3d as a tone-deaf company than whether people are offended by it alone. Their offense may turn off sales. I do think Daz3d puts through into this as I've watched Daz3d grow from nothing to a fantastic company with tons of products. If this has been discussed in the past, I didn't see that post.
Yes, some of that!
And some Michael on top of a pile of skulls gripping a demons neck
MOTPSGDN
I think including some stereotypical assets is a good thing. Yes, some regular outfits should be included as well, and they generally do include something like that, but these stereotypical assets are often things people could search for for ages without luck, and without any stimulation (like a large enough amount of guaranteed sales), these would never be made. Ethnical pro-bundle contents are exactly the stimulation and guarantee some artists need, to start making something they might've wanted to make for ages, but couldn't justify because it wouldn't guarantee that it would put food on the table next week.
And just imagine, some random Asian figure gets released.
The pro-bundle contains:
Generic modern outfit #1
Generic modern outfit #2
Generic fantasy or Sci-fi outfit #1
Generic hair #1
Generic hair #2
Generic poses #1
Generic poses #2
What exactly is the selling point for that bundle, when the one with the previous bundle was already more or less the same genericity?
Meanwhile, people looking for Asian assets can only hope for some designer to someday bite the bullet in his or her spare time, but that might take a few years..
And where do designers get their inspiration? A message from Daz warning "We're working on an Asian figure, submit concepts for assets within two weeks, if you get picked, finish it within 8 weeks for release with the figure" is a great way to get some artists going. Some will be extremely stereotypical, others will google for some alternative local styles and remain a bit more neutral. Customers (that's us!) will see a bundle with all kinds of stuff, some to their tastes, some things a bit less, but the theme of the bundle will at least be recognizable to everybody.
I tend to ascribe to the diversity, integration and freedom view myself, we are all people and can learn from and incorporate things from other cultures and evolve, I honestly think the whole cultural appropriation concept is divisive and fosters prediduce and hate.
Nonetheless I do try not to offend people, I just find I get continually lectured on this stuff by white Anglosaxon protestants though, not people of other cultures who share recipes ideas show me their clothing and sell it to me.
Thread pruned and closed.