Please List Items Used In Promos
katherinepoche_e11a5b0e7e
Posts: 269
Post edited by katherinepoche_e11a5b0e7e on
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Therin lies the problem
many of the promo artists don't want you duplicating their work, it's what gives them their edge and gets them the job
honestly I prefer the clay renders of what is actually included in the product myself
Or the clothing/hair on basic gray models - that way you're not looking at the over all image, but mainly the product itself.
Also, not often is everything used in the promos purchasable here. Sometimes it's from another store and daz doesn't allow that stuff to be linked in promos.
But couldn't they at least say the name of it or the vendor? We know how to Google ;)
Again, I don't think they allow any mention of 'the competetion' in their official store pages.
‘They don’t want us copying their promos.’
uh, in most cases it’s more a matter of the work to track down everything used. Then there’s also changing decisions about what promos to use.
Some people have lamented that lighting isn’t often mentioned but the problem is that if I’ve selected my promos (because there’s usually a few I decide don’t work), I can’t easily open up the scene and check what lighting it is.
Also, not to put too fine a point on it, time I’m spending tracking down what I used in promos I’d time I’m not spending on working out new cool products for people.
Personally I’m happy to include as much as I can, so long as I can remember from looking st the promos or check real fast in scenes. Past that... eeenh
We're actually urged to list all items in promo art (all daz items anyway). They used to get a lot of emails asking what was used in 'X' promo, so there's been a push to make it more transparent and save support time. I certainly try my best to do so, and i think most vendors are happy to oblige too. Scenes can get quite complex though, and it's easy to lose track of what you've used. On top of that, a lot of vendors outsource promo's to private artists or teams (like sympatico), so products can get lost in translation too. I assure you that vendors aren't being secretive, it's a mixture of issues that might lead to item listings not making it to the store page. A lot of forumites know the store very well though, i'm sure if you post a mystery promo on here, plenty of people will help you.
I always list what I use in promos... in my PDF always, and on the store page in more recent years (as DAZ started asking us to include that) But good luck recreating my images lol the amount of postwork I do for the artsy ones is off the chain. I seroiusly doubt anyone could do it verbatim.
I totally get wanting to know where we got stuff, to be able to use it also for your own images. But um... why would you want to "recreate" any promo? I thought art was supposed to be your vision? Not a reboot of someone else's?
I can't say I have ever seen anyone try to recreate a promo image.....and I know that has never been a concern of mine. So that was funny to read.
Generally most PA's I know will list what they can. I know in my case I sometimes edit textures of the background scenery or clothes, and if I do that, then i wont list the product because what I used could not be found in a shop anywhere.
I can imagine a PA spending 6 months working on a project, having to deal with seams, reworking weight maps, trying to make grafts work correctly and when done, actually sitting down and being creattive with their new product and creating captivating promos to try and sell the product, only to have to spend extra time and energy looking up all the items they used in said promos so end users didn't have to do any of the work themselves. If I was a PA I would be just a bit irked that I HAD to spend that time because a user demanded DAZ to make it mandatory
from now on the promos should be in the default pose with everything clay except what the product actually is in color. Then users can stop asking and be creative for themselves, sound good?
As KA posted, there are quite a few on the forums that know the various stores well enough that they don't have to ask, maybe some others should get on that boat also. I think I have asked what/where something was maybe 2 or 3 tiimes in the years I have been here and usually it's directly to the PA, either thru the forums here or by PM at Rendo
I try to list as much as I can but it really is difficult sometimes. I set something up, change it, discard it, load something else, change that too - really hard to keep track of that, especially with poses.
You also seem to assume that we use things out of the box so we could link to a specific product, but most of us don't. I sometimes make a background prop specially for a promo, or I put a custom texture on something. Or I use one character's skin and a combination of several morphs at low values for the face. Do you really expect me to write down a list of what morph I used at which percentage? For each promo? (I usually use different characters in my clothing promos so the list would be rather long.)
Sometimes I layer hairstyles, hide some parts or add custom morphs to adjust the hair to my needs. With lighting, I usually use a combination of an HDRI or the Iray sun plus manually placed spots or emissive planes. How should I even begin to list that? *scratches head*
Setting up a complete How-to-replicate-this-render guide is impossible, giving a list with the main items is time-consuming enough. If you really want to know something and can't find it you can always ask here in the forum.
What is particularly frustrating is when I get inquiries about the stuff I used when it's an item I didn't change and which is clearly listed in the Products Used section. It seems the more products are listed the less willing people are to check out those links. That really makes me ask myself why I even bother...
I'll still do my best to list what I used, though, within the limitations described above.
While I am obviously the butt of the joke for my statement
I have actually read a Promo Artist whine about someone wanting to copy their work and more than one DeviantArt poster, I was not making that up.
would it apply to every promo artist
no
but some are rather protective of their artistic skills be it the type of post work they use, lighting etc and props characters they have actually come out and said will never be for sale that are their "trademark " characters
so laugh at the silly post all you want
It would be nice, but isn't trying to figure it out by yourself and with others here on the forums part of the whole Daz community experience? Anyway, Daz would like for everything used in promos to be sourced from other Daz PAs, but they don't enforce that, either. I sure wouldn't want to see less awesome promos because that became a thing.
As for the recreating promos, I haven't done it, but I can see it as a useful way to practice technique. Also, sometimes you'll get inspired by a promo to do something completely different precisely because there's an intriguing element in a promo that you want to experiment with.
Well, if someone really wanted to create an exact copy of someone else's artwork I can fully understand the artist's reaction. Wouldn't it irritate you if someone wanted your help to copy your work, your style, your personality?
The fun part of 3D is being creative and original. When you hear a song you like you can get the music sheets and play or sing it yourself, and it will never sound exactly like that performer's song, it will be your own personal version of it, and that's what art is all about. Instead of trying to replicate things exactly, artists should take them as an inspiration and make their own art
I don't feel it was silly, we often have people asking for exactly everything in promo images so why would they if they are not trying to recreate a particular image, its the same with characters used, some want to replicate exactly what another artist has done.
Funny, I have tried to recreate a promo a few times and it NEVER came out like the promo, even with the same items used, LOL Maybe PAs should just start posting the scene file also, LOL
I don't doubt this exists at all, i'm sure there have been PA's that can get attached to their promo material and don't want it copied. Absolutely feasible. I just don't want people to think this is the dominant reason for PA's not listing material though, it's often far less insidious.
For me personally, i have around a terabyte worth of library content i've collected over many years, from a load of different websites. It's easy to miss things. It can also scramble your brain when you're bang-on deadline for submission, you have to list your set content, sort promos, pack material, write a description, sort categories, figure out pricing, keywords etc. All on one page, it's easy to make mistakes. As Rawn said too, we often model/texture stuff specifically for promo's, which probably makes things trickier to track. Again, i think it's worth contacting the PA or making a thread if you're after something specific.
Oh it completely exists... so I dont think its silly, at all. And its not only an ethical issue, but copyright infringement.... esp if you're selling images. Sadly, the laws arent well mandated over the net... soo ppl get away with murder. But I can totally understand why someone who's working hard on their images and is trying to make it as a promo or whatever type designer... would be bent by someone else copying them. Same sort of stuff happens with content, actually, and its just as annoying and unethical.
LOL good luck with that one. Even if ppl had my scene file, theyd never be able to reproduce the end result exactly. The mass amount of post I do in the artsy ones would be nearly impossible to replicate exactly. IDK that even I could replicate my own images exactly, twice. There would be differences.
To Rawn's end, tho... yeah, I dont think Ive ever seen someone try to replicate my images. At least, none that Ive noticed. The most Ive gotten is someone cutting them up and using my image in their art.
for the record, there is a big difference between finding a concept funny and seeing someone as the butt of a joke.
I may be an evil PA....but I am not THAT bad LOL
Actually, I did try to recreate a P3D (https://www.daz3d.com/mindie-for-genesis-8-female) promo image because I particularly liked the pose. I didn't recognize the pose and created it from scratch.
Posted in my Gallery (https://www.daz3d.com/mindie-for-genesis-8-female) and was very clear that it was an homage. P3Design seemed to be okay with the intent and render.
I know that when I save a scene and then afterwards a render of it, I save them both as (here is made up example) G8 TJane Mix V8 skin SB Leni Hair SBC pants H&C Hoodie. SB is Skin Builder. The file names can get long though and for a PA they could have a computer text file or even write down with a pen on a pad what was used for the promo while they are creating it. I don’t think anyone is asking for what was the exact mix was for a custom character but maybe just the main character with “mix” after it or if Daz allows it, just put “custom character, V8 skin with Skin Builder or Custom Skin. Maybe the OP wants to recreate the promo but most of us just want to know if they can buy a product in the Daz store or even if they already own it and forgot lol.
Actually, I could probably find at least a half dozen threads that end up with people asking how to duplicate Joelgecko's main promo character. That's probably the best known example, but it does happen, and a lot of other artists have custom dialed characters they regularly use in promo images, so having a character that is part of their recognized brand image exactly duplicated by others is something that could negatively impact some artists.
There's no copyright issue involved with trying to recreate a promo, as you can't register how the light falls a model's face. If someone's trying to pass it off as the original, then it would be forgery, and also kind of silly. People learn how to play guitar by learning the same riffs and chord progressions they hear played by popular artists. Led Zepplin ripped off Stairway to Heaven, but some kid trying to work through it is just learning to play something they like. As far as post work goes, though, I avoid some vendors because I'd have no idea what I'm buying because the images haves obviously been enhanced so much.
If PAs really want to protect themselves against having their work copied, they should say so on the product page. I can't imagine that helping sales, though.
I think it's a good idea to have care for how things are said.
PAs don't want this or want that. That is a generalization which basically colors the group with a wide brush. In fact, in most cases, it's one PA, a couple, a few, some, depending on the circustances involved.
There are many PAs who are very generous with their knowledge and time to help customers understand the products they purchase or want help achieving the look of something the PA displayed in a promo. Some PAs will give specifics and others general pointers leaving you to experiment and find what works best for your particular scene. Some PAs, especially for environments, even give scene setups that include lighting. You'll note that if you change anything about the scene, it may completely impact if the scene ends up looking like the promo from which it came.
I agree with esha. I'm in the process of doing promos atm. I make so many changes trying to get just the right looking promo that I can easily lose track of what I used. I still try to list what I used, but it just isn't always easy. And it adds work to a process which can already be so time-consuming. We should be focusing on showing off the product as best as possible for the customer.
We also kitbash a lot. That not only includes what's worn but which skins, maybe eyes from a different product than where the skin comes from, or fiber brows from another, and, in addition, customizing the surface settings. The environment, atmosphere, lights and what we did to them, HDRs and what rotation we chose or render settings. So even if we give you a list of everything we use, you still may not be able to make out everything that went into the final image you see.
Long term, this would only result in promos becoming less elaborate, just to reduce the paperwork involved.
Don't get me wrong, I very much appreciate the artists including as much information as they can, and looking through all the requests, it seems the most common questions are about hair, outfits and characters, much less often about lights or vehicles. But as a rule of thumb, the thing you're interested in is probably the one thing they forgot to list.
Also keep in mind that some artists use promo art for one product as a testbed for future products. So it is very possible that the awesome hairdo simply isn't available yet, and might even still risk being abandoned before release because of some impossible or unwieldy feature.
I've also learnt through my years here, that most vendors or artists happily tells what they have used, IF they themselves remember or are able to pinpoint what was used (the last if they did a lot of kitbashing). It's all about giving and taking I feel in this case, it would be nice if all items were written down BUT I don't feel it's fair to demand it of anyone. That is my opinion though :)
Do what I do use your own products !!!!
I actually never suggested the PA's themselves were being secretive, in fact those that do their own promos do tend to highlight what is for sale in much detail