Is Genesis 8 really that good?
khyron555
Posts: 26
I know I may be opening Pandora's box here (so I'll appologize in advance) but, does anyone else not think that maybe 90% of the G8 characters are a little.. off somehow? I've loaded more than a few of them and for some reason, to my sense of asthetics, they all have this weird duck face at default. Even after a bit of posing (or gods forbid I apply the same customising process that I use on G3 to great effect), they just don't look as visually appealing to me. Some of the designs are honestly, inspired. At least in the promo pics..
I've actually been hoping to find a converter to change characters from G8 to G3 but I don't think I'll be that lucky.
I get this is just my opinion, and I may well be in the minority, but I was just wondering if anyone else feels the same way, and that the G8 series is painfully overrated..
ANYway, please share your thoughts!
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I find that my Genesis 8 characters have a more real feel most of the time. I find it is usually a case where the hair and clothing break the illusion for me. I'm fairly new though and only have experiences with the few characters I have.
In my opinion? Definitely a step up over G3. Not necessarily a huge step (in many ways, I consider the G3 and G8 generations somewhat interchangeable), but it is an advancement, if in part because the products coming out for it are coming from increasingly experienced creators.
For me, the main reason I've chosen to update some of my characters to G8 rather than G3 is the integration of HD facial expressions, which help add in the wrinkles that make it look like an actual face, rather than the effect of a botched face lift, mild facial paralysis (or both) that I've often had to fight with some G3 figures, repeatedly retweaking parameters until a smile actually looks sincere. (I actually often find G2 figures easier to get good facial expressions on, if I'm honest).
The open source GenNext script can already do that (with enough work, anyway), and I believe Zev0 is working on a commercial option (although their G3 -> G8 script will be coming first).
Genesis 8 has better facial tech for better expressions.
To me the skin shader settngs on the G3 platform was more realistic out of the box than most of the G8. Being as I can change it it's not really an issue for me. When G8 was realeased a lot of people noticed the difference and kept harping on about how G8 skin textures had a plastic look to them.
I think G8 females > G3 females. G3 male > G8 male. Something about G8 males is very off to me. Eyeball seems inset too much and most skin looks weird.
@khyron555 "to my sense of asthetics, they all have this weird duck face at default."
You almost certainly have an additional morph loading that either saved over the default Genesis 8 or had an error with the specific file for that morph.
Load the base Genesis 8 Female, then look through the loaded morph list. Click the Figure, then Parameters>Actor>Head. Look for anything at 100% that isn't Genesis 8 base.
this is why you never use the default anything, LOL
Nope, not seeing the duck face
The differences between G3 and G8 are truely neglible. The two even have as good as identical UVs. So, if you're just getting started, focus on G8, and if you find G3 assets or characters that suit your tastes and requirements, see if you can convert them to G8 with the appropriate tools/products.
For those who already have a big library of G3 characters and assets, there is some use to investing into G8 products: most of them can be easily converted to G3, and if not, then there's still the option to occasionally use a G8 character and convert the necessary G3 items from your library to fit.
The name of the game now is conversion, and DAZ should be very happy that those tools exist now, or they would've ended up with a fragmented customer base, which would only hurt their sales. Few DS users bother visiting the Poser store for products, simply because, as awesome as some of those are, they're mostly useless to them. But, Poser users do visit the Daz store and Renderosity, thanks to some tricks to make G1 and G2 work in Poser, so they can actually use some of the G2 assets. The more people able to use your products, the bigger your market, the more sales you make.
I don't notice any duckfaces, only that way too many of the female figures seem to be lacking in the nose department, but that is true for both, G3F and G8F.
And up to now I'm still mostly using G3F, but that's because when I started with DAZ I had to buy cheap, and morphs, clothes and stuff for G3F were more often in my financial reach than the G8F versions... slowly building up those now, though.
And I'm waiting for a converter from G3M to G8M... there's quite a lot of stuff I'd like to use with G8M in my library ^^
Agree on the skin but I find most G8 expressions to be further into the uncanny valley than their G3 equivalents. Especially the smiles, which often come across as a bit creepy and more like something you'd see on the Joker than in real life. Most of the other "improvements" are makerting hype or things that could have been implemented in G3 just as easily... it IS the same mesh and UV set, after all.
Other than that... I've found Genesis 3 to be much more powerful in terms of figure creation simply because of the lack of G8 support in GenX2, which allows transfer of morphs from as far back as Victoria 3, whereas with G8 one has to bump from the original shape to G3 and then to G8 using a more convoluted process. This may finally be changing as there are now several PAs producing G3 to G8 transfer systems, with Zev0's promising both male and female G3 to G8 conversion with the much needed JCM transfer, but untiil we have direct transfer to all the old school figures, G8 will still be stuck with the copy of a copy syndrome.
very soon. Zevos converter will work on both male and female unlike the one just released.
It’s actually not the same mesh as G3, though they are similar.
I think G8 is very good. But I migrated from Victoria 4, so I don't have much G1-G3 experience. Is G8 as good as "professional" bespoke characters? No. But G8 also doesn't cost as much.
I believe Zev's also transfers helper morphs.
... But as I have plenty of Riversoft Art's excellent scripts, I'll likely get both.
I've no burning need to convert any as yet, I've converted the ones I wanted to myself.
Edit:
... But to answer the OP; imo, very much so. The differences are mainly around the head, with facial expressions, but a decent if not massive improvement. G3 itself was a huge improvement imo.
The only thing odd about G8 is they have, as others have noticed and commented before, those odd 'Joker' (as in Batman Joke fame) lips, especially the corners and how they upturn. That quirk has been improved to be not so blatant though in later G8 DO Pro Bundle models.
Humm.... As others have already noted, I don't see any duck faces on the G8 characters I have. So you may have an unruly morph that is being loaded with your G8F. It would no doubt help if you could give us an image with a character (un-modified to remove the duck face) that you find particularly bad, then we could compare to see if it looks like our default version of the same character.
Personally, I like G8F better that G3F, mainly due to the HD expressions. But most of the DO official G8F characters I haven't liked that much. If I wanted older characters I'd be quite happy with them, but I have very little use for them in my renders. However, there are some PA's that have made, IMHO, some outstanding G8 charscters that I'm quite happy with and are better in many respects to most G3 characters.
Agreed. I was initially lukewarm on G8 until a few months ago when I started to play around with the ones I'd purchased (I'm a DAZaholic).
However, now I prefer G8 because of the expressions which, IMHO, appear more natural.
Simiilar enough that they can share geografts.
I wouldn't say G8 is overrated. There are some excellent figures with high details that look amazing. And then there are some G8 figures that look like plastic when rendered. But I don't put 100% of the blame on the figures. Lighting is important. Good lighting can make a scene and figure seem photorealistic. There is a particular light that I use in many of my scenes, just because it makes the figures feel more organic.
The same can be said for G3 when it comes to figures. There are some beautiful, realistic ones. And then there are some you can tell are rendered in 3-D software. While I use G8 more often, I do use G3 for other characters (I use G3 a lot when I need background characters and I'm utilizing depth of field). It all depends on the particular figure and if the lighting helps me achieve the results I need.
As for the duck face, I haven't experienced this problem. As others have said, this might be a morphing issue. All of my figures start with the same default expression/pose.
G8 has improved expressions and I most definitely prefer it.
Overall, G8 is better because of the variety of people types. Where it stumbles is in some of the base characters. The superiority of Mei Lin 7 over Mei Lin 8 is one such example. However, the stuff that PAs are putting out in G8 blows most older stuff away. Mousso's products are an example. A huge plus for G8 is more use of fiber mesh hair--everything from eyebrows to peach fuzz to pubes. Lastly, many G8 figures come with lots of extras (multiple characters, hair, tattoos, clothes, props). In G3 I'd be thrilled if a character came with a set of earrings!
+1 As much as I love G3, I every time I try and use G3 in my renders I end up seriously missing the PowerPose with the advanced face rigging and being able to tweak and adjust the face and expressions on the fly. The subtle changes and adjustments that PowerPose and the advanced facial rigging provides is awesome.
The ease in which it can add realism to faces and expressions has spoiled me from using older gen figures very often. There are also differences in G8's bends and muscle flow which also helps provide more realism to renders. Some of the differences are subtle but can make a difference when aiming for more realism.
My issue with G8 is that it is difficult to find animation support for it. I do mostly MMD conversions that I can apply to G1 thru G3 by using 3DXchange without degredation in the motion (as long as I unlock nodes in DS) G8 however displays the classic feet sliding even with nodes unlocked. I know that DS ver 4.12 has IK chains now but I'm not sure if that can work to resolve sliding feet or floor penetration issues.
In terms of animation, G8 and G3 should essentially work the same. They start with A-pose vs. T-pose, but they share the same bone hierarchy. I suspect your issue is configuring 3DX with a properly characterized G8 figure in the proper T-pose. The same process that you're using for G8 should work for G3. You might need both nodes unlocked, and rotation limits off
You should try to solve the motion with the locks "enabled" if you can . The reason is weight mapping. Although the bones and skeleton will have essentially the same pose/animation position each frame, the resulting mesh deformations and bends will look better and cleaner when the twist bones are properly utilized for G3 and G8. When you solve it with the locks on, the motion should be "redistributed" to the twist bones. I don't know if 3DX or iclone can do this, but retargetting software should be able to
It's the twist bones that usually give people trouble when using other motion from other sources with different skeletons . But that affects both G3 and G8... ie. it's not a G8 specific issue .
G8 also has added JCM's for some types of movements and bends. eg. You can see some muscle belly flexion, it's slightly more realistic in some cases (but potentially problematic in others)
So overall G8 is a minor improvement ; but the HD expressions and JCM's could have been added to G3 just as easily . The bones are the same, face rig the same, mesh and UV's are very close (close enough that you can use same skins with minor edits) . Eye geometry is arguably worse. So G8 is really a G3.1 or G3.2 with some minor improvements. They don't add up to calling it a new generation in my opinion
Probably for frogs, facial expressions are not important, but in humans ... G8 > G3. DAZ could update G3 to bring it closer to G8. The hopes are not yet lost. And not duck face in G8.
G8's expressions made it impossible for me not to adopt, and the expressions actually look better in practice than most of the promos of expressions. I did screenshots of my favourite actors expressions, copied them on G8, and I got exactly the looks I intended. That couldn't happen on G3 or earlier. Moreover, G3 does not have morph packs by EmmaAndJordi, Rarestone, HerYun, & 3DGHDesign. I often ran out of adequate morph targets when attempting to approximate faces on G3. This rarely happens on G8 (except the males) because there's a morph for almost every nuance of the face (E&J caught just about everything that was missing).
And now that Daz has filled out the 8 Core males with a couple of versions of the main types (presuming an Idris lookalike is on the backburner), I have enough high-quality skins for main and supporting characters without having to resort to Genesis 2 or earlier.
I never considered that, thanks a lot! I'll give it a try tonight; very interested to see if that is indeed the case.