Is there any improvements in the works for clothes?
TheKD
Posts: 2,711
Just wondering, is the daz team working on improving the interaction between clothes and figures? It's been stagnant in that area for a while, I still get issues with poke through, or clothes floating inches from skin. Still no real volume to clothes, just flat planes really.
I end up having to do a boatload of render passes and composite them together to get things looking right. Generally I have to do at least 2 passes for every light, one bald naked pass with HD skin on, and one clothed and hair pass. This one I am working on now is a bit of a nightmare. I am doing a medusa type render, the clothes I am using is having big issues, so going to have to do 2 nude passes, one for each skin, and 2 clothed passes, one with all skin visible to catch ambient occlusion, and another with certain parts of the figure invisible to get rid of some pokethrough. Takes about an hour for each pass, so this one is taking a lot longer than I would like lol.
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Comments
dforce can work to avoid issues with many clothes (though not all work well with it).
pokethrough can be helped by adding a 'push' modifier (this tends to inflate the whole clothing though) - you can adjust the amount of 'push'.
using a geoshell and fitting the clothes to that may allow you to expand the clothing subtly for just one body part.
Geometry editor can let you hide individual polys that are poking through (ones that won't be seen in the final render).
Well, it's basically what dforce is intended to solve, however dforce can come with it's own drawbacks, like the ultra thin look to the fabric and mesh exploding sometimes. All in all though, it does look better than conforming, but whether or not one wants to take the time with it is another story. Frankly, I think conforming is on the way out really as people really do want more naturally draping clothing, but there will be hurdles to get over before we actually arrive there ;).
Laurie
Yeah, I do like dforce a lot, been using it too. It does have those issues talked about, especially the flat plane one. I generally don't like giant boob look, that has always given all clothing solutions fits since the poser days lol. Also having scaled down figures mucks things up as well, especially with the hair figures for some reason. I think the realism of skin, is making all the limitations with clothes and hair look worse by comparison, if that makes any sense.
Poketrough bothers me too! And I've found it more often with dForce clothes...and those simulation take so long to run...
I like your Fit Control product! I always use it when I want to do something in particular or if I'm gonna use that piece of clothing for more than one scene, but I have to say that it can take quite sometime to apply those morphs to an item, and even after that Daz stutters for some minutes (I'm using the public build) :(
Yes, very annoying as it is solvable.
Hmmm, I was under the impression that smoothing could not even see subd at all, and always uses the base level for calculations. I thought I had read that here somehwere, could be wrong though. And fit control, I do have it, but I kinda forgot it even existed once dforce came out, guess I was hoping such things would not be needed anymore haha. Thanks for remindin me
Oh? How?
Clothing has come a long way from where it used to be. With dforce, dynamic plugins and tools like the smoothing modifier and geometry editor you can fix most of the small issues, of course, you'll have to do some of the work and not rely on plug and play.
We are so spoiled with what we have with DS and content. Try using a regular modeling app like Maya and see how much work you will have to do to get similar results.
With sufficient geometry, once the simulation is done, apply a morph (HD might be better); this adds depth to edges, it can still look a little too smooth or linear at times, but is far less jarring when looking at it. The benefit of using an HD morph, means no excessive geometry elsewhere (I believe?), and it can also add some variation to breakdown that linear (perfectly straight/curve edges).
I've been testing out another method, that also has potential, but it can cause issues. Texturing isn't my strong suite though so examples can look less than optimal. :(
Displacement is also effective, but IRAY isn't a fan of it; one of the reasons I'm looking at Octane (£20 a month to test it isn't so bad).
Yeah you right, I guess I just had higher expectations for dforce than the reality could achieve. Should just go back to making my own stuff and revisit daz studio content in another year, see where improvements are at then.
I am still hoping for advances with dForce. I bought Marvelous Designer before Christmas and have still yet to get to grips with it to make some clothes myself - ideally I would like to be able to export some of my vast library of conforming clothers to MD and use them as "starters" but I have not had much luck with conforming clothes in MD yet.
Back to dForce, a few obvious steps forward would be:
1. A fabric library. It would be wonderful to just click on a dress and endow it with the simulation properties of, say, denim or silk.
2. Selected simulation options. At the moment we have to start by de-selecting (disable Visibility in Simulation) all the objects in the scene that we DON'T want to simulate which seems to me to be bass-ackwards. Much better would be to select a dress or sheet (or both) and click "Simulate". Similarly for Clear Simulation which defaults to clearing the drape of everything rather than the selected item (although there is an option for "Clear Selected" but it is not default and quite well hidden).
3. Mouse-drag while simulating for real-time adjustments. MD has this and even VWD has it so it shouldn't be beyond the ken of the DAZ Studio developers, surely?
I think dforce will only improve. After all, it's still in its very early stages. A fabric library is a very good idea too and one I've thought of myself and I hope someone is working on one. I myself don't know enough about the individual settings to do one myself but I'm sure there are folks that do.
Laurie
MD is a beast, if you want to use it, best just forget about the premade stuff. Doing it from scratch in MD ends up being easier than mucking around and getting stuff made for DS to work in it. For some great free tutorials on MD, check out this YT channel, she got the best ones I have seen https://www.youtube.com/user/WildWebWorks/videos
Can the morph be applied by the PA before the user even runs the sim?
I remember VWD let you rigidify parts (e.g., edges/trim of clothing). I haven't played much with d-Force but I think it has some functionality in surfaces to allow some surfaces to keep their shape/thickness better while still honoring the simulation (contraction/expansion ratio, buckling, etc). Having the PA set this up in the product itself seems better than having the user apply a morph after the sim runs. Then again, I could be smokin'.
That's something people have been asking since dForce was introduced but dForce simulation is highly dependent on the underlying mesh, so creating a preset which would work on all items would not be possible AFAIK.
I've thought about doing a fabric library as described. The issue though is that how many of the settings react depend largely on the density of the mesh. "Denim" on a dense mesh is going to react differently than "denim" with the same settings on a more sparse mesh.
nicstt: A HD morph requires sufficient geometry and has all the problems displacement does.
Yep, I know of Lori - I've exchanged a few emails with her and she's a real gem. I have bought a couple of her Udemy courses too and am working through them. I just need a bit more discipline to get cracking. It did take me a couple of years to get anything worthwhile in DAZ Studio so I'm a legendary slow-starter. Soon I'm going to be out of the country for 3 months so I'll have to make a concerted effort when I get back. I'm not getting any younger, after all.
Didn't Optitex have fabric presets or is that an entirely different concept?
Optitex is a totally different system.
It does? that sucks.
Yes morphs can be created, but they can't be set until after the simulation.
That is a good point. I change the density on dforce items often for this very reason. Could the subd level also be set with the preset?
SubD level tells you how many times you subdivide the base mesh, not how many polygons you end up with. With the same subd level applied one mesh would still be less dense than the other.
True to a degree. Subd makes the mesh more dense by increasing the number of vertices on the model, which affects it's behavior and detail level. I have applied plastic shaders to mesh with different subd levels and they all acted very differently. You are correct though that there is no way to have the starter cloth be the same density as another starter cloth, so a preset like that wouldn't work.