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OT Cathedral of Notre Dame fire

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  • kenshaw011267kenshaw011267 Posts: 3,805
    kyoto kid said:
    kenshaw011267 said:
    kyoto kid said:

    ...some of the pipes in the organ date back to the 15th century before the rebuild of 1730.  The voices that Thierry, Cloquot. and Cavalle-Coll added in the expansions are significant in historical terms of the instrument's and craft's development over time. One just cannot simply "recreate" that with modern technology. If they are able to do a "restoration", they should go back to the original design including a console of the same design as it was in Louis Vierne's time.  Vierne who was blind since birth was the titular organist there for over three decades from the 1900 to the 1937 when he died at the console during a recital.  As a composer, is best known for his Carillon de Westminster and a cycle of 6 sympohonic works for organ.

    Musical instruments of this sort aren't my thing but I do know this, a pipe organ is about the pipes not the console. Going back to the original design console would be a 15th dentury one that could not accomodate the number of pipes in the organ before the fire. Saying to go to the console used in the early 20th century is simply cherry picking one console of many that have been used since the organ was built and would also not accomodate changes to the instrument made since that time.

    ...the technology in the console/keydesk actually does affect the musicality.  Direct mechanical linkage from the keys to the windchests (as this instrument originally had) allows for the performer to affect the articulation of the pipe speech to a greater degree. Electricity is basically on or off with no "in between".  Having played many different instruments from old mechanical action organs to ones with the latest solid state electronics (as well as having studied the instruments history and design) I can say there is a difference which I can even tell just listening.  The original mechanical Cavalle-Coll console was replaced in 1978 with an electopneumatic one which is where the character of the instrument changed.  Such "modern" actions are also more complex than the old mechanical ones and thus more prone to wearing out. 

    It is understandable to use such technology when space is at a premium, architecture of he location requires the console be some distance from the pipework, and/or costs are to be held down as it allows for "unification" (fewer sets of pipes that are "borrowed" from at different segments of their compass to create a larger stoplist than the actual tonal resources the instrument has [this was the principle used in the design cinema organs that often had to fit in very tight chambers in the walls]).  However, the Notre Dame Organ's windchest construction follows the older principle where every stop (voice) was independent. All I am saying is this could bean opportunity to restore the instrument back to the original state before electrification (this has actually occurred in several instances in Europe where old organs that were "modernised" during the last century were restored back to their original state).

    The old Schnitger and Silbermann organs in Germany and Holland as well as existing Cliquot and many Cavaille-Coll organs in France have been restored repeatedly over the years yet still retain their original keydesks/consoles and actions.  

    Imagine taking say, a Steinway grand piano and replacing the usual mechanism employed with electronics to move the hammers.

    In any event, it was discovered the organ was not affected by the flames, so that is a good thing.  There is major concern though that it may have suffered water damage which would affect the wood portions including wooden pipes) as well as electronics.  While still serious is not catastrophic.

    The original console was not replaced in 1978. The original console was replaced sometime in th 18th century. That was replaced no later than 1868. That was also replaced between 1959 and 1963 which is when the mechanical action was replaced with electric. I can find no reference to any work on the organ occuring in 1978, the only work I can find going on in the 70's ended in 1975. In 1983 the electric action was dfisconnected due to fear it might short circuit and start a fire. Between 1990 and 1992 a new console was built using the hardware from the 1963 concole. That console was replaced between 2012 and 2014 but again retained the knobs, stops, levers etc. from the 1963 console.

    Now I just did some quick internet searches and my knowledge of organs is limited to electric organs for playing blues so if you have more info please give me the references but they do seem to be at odds with what I have.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 41,857
    edited April 2019

    .. the console I am speaking of (and posted the image of) is the 1868 one by Cavaille-Coll which was still mechanical action with Barker lever assist (though it used air pressure from the instrument to overcome the weight off the mechanism it was still very responsive to the performer's touch compared to electopneumatic and solid state actions).

    My background is in classical organ, design, building, and history (from the Roman hydraulus to the 20th century) which I studied over 40 years ago, as well as performance on the instrument itself.  I have performed on electopneumatic, solid state, mechanical (often termed "tracker"), and even tubular pneumatic action (an interesting technology British and some US builders in the employed in the late 19th to early 20th century) instruments and can say from experience mechanical action (whether direct or Barker lever assisted) is preferable, again because it is more responsive to the nuances of how the keys are struck thus allowing for adding nuances to the initial articulation of a pipe's speech.

    I feel though we are straying from the original topic of this thread.. 

    Post edited by kyoto kid on
  • grinch2901grinch2901 Posts: 1,247
    Richard Haseltine said:
    Chohole said:
    nonesuch00 said:

     A fire destroyed much of York Minster too but they, probably the UK taxpayers, paid to have it rebuilt. We couldn't tell it had been rebuilt.

    I don't think ther was anywhere near so much damage to York minster,  and the lightning bolt struck midway down the south transept, so the towers were not too badly damamged., whereas with notre dame the spire has totally collapsed.

    The Frauenkirche in Dresden was rebuilt from bombed-out ruins, so it's quite possible that physical restoration will be possible.

    Something I put together for another discussion elsewhere, but here is the Frauenkirche before it was leveled, what it looked like after being leveled, and what the rebuilt  looks like today.

    Dresden_Frauenkirche.jpg
    1024 x 444 - 127K
  • MarcCCTxMarcCCTx Posts: 943
    edited April 2019

    Is there a 3D asset of the Notre Dame? One usable in DAZ Studio? It would have to be fairly resource intensive.

    Post edited by MarcCCTx on
  • nemesis10nemesis10 Posts: 3,788
    MarcCCTx said:

    Is there a 3D asset of the Notre Dame? One usable in DAZ Studio? It would have to be fairly resource intensive.

    There is a $9 obj at turbosquid

  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,729
    grinch2901 said:
    Richard Haseltine said:
    Chohole said:
    nonesuch00 said:

     A fire destroyed much of York Minster too but they, probably the UK taxpayers, paid to have it rebuilt. We couldn't tell it had been rebuilt.

    I don't think ther was anywhere near so much damage to York minster,  and the lightning bolt struck midway down the south transept, so the towers were not too badly damamged., whereas with notre dame the spire has totally collapsed.

    The Frauenkirche in Dresden was rebuilt from bombed-out ruins, so it's quite possible that physical restoration will be possible.

    Something I put together for another discussion elsewhere, but here is the Frauenkirche before it was leveled, what it looked like after being leveled, and what the rebuilt  looks like today.

    Probably just a better photo but I like the 1880s version better.

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 40,081

    https://store.ubi.com/anz/assassin-s-creed--unity/56c4947a88a7e300458b45d6.html

    is free out of respect of the disater that befell the Notre Dame which features heavily in it

    Ubisoft also contributing to the restoration

  • TSasha SmithTSasha Smith Posts: 27,261
    Wendy_Carrara said:

    https://store.ubi.com/anz/assassin-s-creed--unity/56c4947a88a7e300458b45d6.html

    is free out of respect of the disater that befell the Notre Dame which features heavily in it

    Ubisoft also contributing to the restoration

    What is it?  I am on an iPad at the moment and outside so my tablet has high glare on it.

  • Charlie JudgeCharlie Judge Posts: 13,251
    Miss Bad Wolf said:
    Wendy_Carrara said:

    https://store.ubi.com/anz/assassin-s-creed--unity/56c4947a88a7e300458b45d6.html

    is free out of respect of the disater that befell the Notre Dame which features heavily in it

    Ubisoft also contributing to the restoration

    What is it?  I am on an iPad at the moment and outside so my tablet has high glare on it.

    A computer game.

  • Phoenix1966Phoenix1966 Posts: 1,840

    Also, the work of Andrew Tallon--who used lasers to map the architecture--may be tremendously helpful, too.

    https://www.cnn.com/style/article/notre-dame-andrew-tallon-laser-scan-trnd/index.html

     

  • xmasrosexmasrose Posts: 1,409

    You can see him here (at the beginning) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03YbQPKKt6U

  • Phoenix1966Phoenix1966 Posts: 1,840
    edited April 2019

    Sadly, he passed away last November from brain cancer, but his studies of Notre Dame are rather priceless now.

    @xmasrose, thanks for the video link. 

    Post edited by Phoenix1966 on
  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 41,857

    ...here are some images taken after the fire was extinguished.

    Notre Dame Altar post fire.jpg
    1136 x 756 - 182K
    Notre Dame ground shot post fire.jpg
    900 x 600 - 201K
    Notre Dame North Rose Window post fire.jpg
    768 x 963 - 149K
    Notre Dame sanctuary post fire.jpg
    600 x 802 - 123K
    Notre Dame Transept post fire.jpg
    624 x 416 - 55K
    Notre Dame Organ post fire.jpg
    644 x 429 - 58K
  • ToyenToyen Posts: 2,031

    That's truly horrible. I'm glad I was able to see it in person a few years back. Hopefully they will be able to restore it.

  • dragotxdragotx Posts: 1,147
    Officials said yesterday that they were minutes away from losing one of the bell towers when they finally got the fire beat back
  • jukingeojukingeo Posts: 751
    edited April 2019
    Wendy_Carrara said:

    https://store.ubi.com/anz/assassin-s-creed--unity/56c4947a88a7e300458b45d6.html

    is free out of respect of the disater that befell the Notre Dame which features heavily in it

    Ubisoft also contributing to the restoration

    It's a hoax.  Filled out my info and put in my credit card (I don't know why on a free item) and I got this when I submitted it:

    They make you fill everyting out and then present you with a bad link.  So don't bother, it's a complete waste of time! 

    However I AM interested in 3d model of Notre Dame.

     

    UbisoftHoax.jpg
    1920 x 800 - 284K
    Post edited by jukingeo on
  • nemesis10nemesis10 Posts: 3,788
    jukingeo said:
    Wendy_Carrara said:

    https://store.ubi.com/anz/assassin-s-creed--unity/56c4947a88a7e300458b45d6.html

    is free out of respect of the disater that befell the Notre Dame which features heavily in it

    Ubisoft also contributing to the restoration

    It's a hoax.  Filled out my info and put in my credit card (I don't know why on a free item) and I got this when I submitted it:

    They make you fill everyting out and then present you with a bad link.  So don't bother, it's a complete waste of time! 

    However I AM interested in 3d model of Notre Dame.

     

    more likely, they are being hammered by the number of people downloading... wait a few days to try to access the page.

  • butterflyfishbutterflyfish Posts: 1,483

    It's not a hoax. I just went and "bought" it. It did ask for credit card information, but didn't appear to charge anything. I did, however, have to switch to the US store first. The link goes to the Australia site.

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 40,081
    edited April 2019

    I just picked PayPal as my payment method and it didn’t ask for any payment details 

    they did however already have my address etc as have bought other games as discs at local shop and registered and updated them with them, and I got AC3 there free as an offer once too

    took about 20 hours to download though, it’s 45GB

    Post edited by WendyLuvsCatz on
  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 40,081
    butterflyfish said:

    It's not a hoax. I just went and "bought" it. It did ask for credit card information, but didn't appear to charge anything. I did, however, have to switch to the US store first. The link goes to the Australia site.

     

    Yeah I am Australian blush

  • bluejauntebluejaunte Posts: 1,990

    I got it free in UPlay, which you need to install to play the game anyway.

  • jukingeojukingeo Posts: 751
    butterflyfish said:

    It's not a hoax. I just went and "bought" it. It did ask for credit card information, but didn't appear to charge anything. I did, however, have to switch to the US store first. The link goes to the Australia site.

    Well, I got that nice error message above and yes, that still was after switching to the U.S. store.

     

    bluejaunte said:

    I got it free in UPlay, which you need to install to play the game anyway.

    More hoop jumping, huh?  I'll pass. 

  • zombietaggerungzombietaggerung Posts: 3,845
    bluejaunte said:

    I got it free in UPlay, which you need to install to play the game anyway.

    Same here, it didn't ask me for any payment method at all.

  • Pack58Pack58 Posts: 750
    edited April 2019

    I get "An error has occurred calculating taxes for one or more products in your cart."

    15% of 0 is?

    My 6 year old grandson could probably answer that.

     

    Edit: OK, next to having your 800 year old Cathedral half burn down, not getting a free game is no biggie.

    Post edited by Pack58 on
  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 40,081

    and yes it probably helped I had Uplay already installed and had only loaded AC3 the other day and updated it

  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,729

    I'd buy the Notre Dame model and the Paris surrounds but I'm absoluting not interested in the game.

  • kenshaw011267kenshaw011267 Posts: 3,805
    kyoto kid said:

    ...here are some images taken after the fire was extinguished.

    Clearly the damage was horrific but it could have been so much worse. Getting a temporary roof on the building and cleaning the smoke damage should hopefully start almost immediately. 

    From my reading the biggest issue with a faithful restoration is finding enough tall oaks of the correct variety to provide the roof timbers and enough woodworkers with knowledge of the techniques required to work those timbers by hand in the manner used in the original.

  • xmasrosexmasrose Posts: 1,409
    edited April 2019

    If you have photos of Notre Dame you want to share or if you want just to take a look

    Here is a new campaign at Wikimedia (Notre-Dame de Paris fire On 15 April, a massive fire gutted the Notre-Dame cathedral in Paris, France. Today, we’re asking you to share your pictures of the cathedral—past and present—so future generations can bear witness to the building's extensive history.) : https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Campaign:NotreDame

    Post edited by xmasrose on
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